Author Topic: GOOD NEWS FROM COX (Read 6163 times)

LARRY RICE · « **on:** January 23, 2010, 04:10:06 AM »

I just got off the phone with Bernie at Cox International and he has informed me that they now have Babe Bees and Black Widows in stock. The NEW Babe Bee is under $40.00 ... not a bad price.
I am sure that most Authorized Black Hawk Models Dealers will be offering them in the very near future.
Larry

Douglas Ames · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2010, 07:10:17 AM »

Could you refresh my memory, A Black Widow is a ...Reed valve w/ perf cyl. & Hi-comp. head??

Any plans to re-introduce the Medallion? Cox's best IMHO.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2010, 11:21:02 AM »

I do not work for Cox and therefore I do not know of his future plans. The Blackwidow is a twin ported reed valve engine with a stunt tank attached. The one thing that we have needed in 1/2A is a low cost easy to start and run engine ... and that is what these are. For power house engines the Brodak or AP engines are available.
Larry

John Rist · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2010, 02:05:40 PM »

The Blackwdiow also has a decent size tank

Brett Buck · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2010, 11:38:43 PM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on January 23, 2010, 04:10:06 AM

I just got off the phone with Bernie at Cox International and he has informed me that they now have Babe Bees and Black Widows in stock. The NEW Babe Bee is under $40.00 ... not a bad price.

That is good news. The Cox engines have always been a big step up from almost any other small engines as far as usability. Let's hope the quality is per previous experience.

Brett

kenneth cook · « **Reply #5 on:** January 24, 2010, 05:37:19 AM »

The last run of the Black Widows were far from being Black Widow performance. I don't want to sound negative here, but the tank having no vents was a major downgrade for that engine. In addition the later runs were also using the Sure Start piston cylinder in which I found robbed anywhere from 1000-1500 rpm's from it. The Black Widow was indeed black which was indeed its trademark whereas the others had mill finish parts. The anodizing made for a tough surface for the crank to run on. Yes, I see several crankcases available now in many colors never offered. Those particular cases do cost several dollars more than the standard mill finish case. I have my fingers crossed here as I would love to see the engine return as it was. I just think different as with most everything in the past that seems good slowly becomes inferior due to costs and lack of sales. The tank and the tank back are the tough finds on that engine. Unless they're old stock, they would have to be manufactured once again. Again, I don't want to sound full of doubt but if were going to see the engine that we've all come to enjoy return, were probably not going to like the price. Maybe Bernie can enlighten us on what is upcoming and the stats of the engine. Xenalook has done me a great service and I support them as I would've never been able to rebuild my engines as I've done. Ken

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #6 on:** January 24, 2010, 10:21:20 AM »

I don't see the Black Widows on the site itself, but my "guess" (and it is only that), is that these Black Widows are being made from the Sure-Start engines ---but with the 8cc integral tank. If I look at the 8cc tank body that is being offered, it doesn't look like my Black Widow tanks--there are no fuel vents like my older Black Widow has. They don't show a tank backplate, so I am not sure if that is where the vent would be.

Now I could be completely wrong, but the fact is that the Cox, the manufacturer we knew in the past that could make the precision engines that they did--no longer exists (actually for some time now). I have no doubt that modern machining could be made to get those tolerances, but I bet it is a pretty costly enterprise to do it.

I would really like to be surprised and be wrong. I really would.

However even if I am right, these engines still might be pretty serviceable for fun 1/2a flying.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #7 on:** January 24, 2010, 10:27:12 AM »

Well, I for one, am glad to see these engines coming back. We have a saying here that goes: Don't cry shark until you the fin. I will wait to see what Bernie comes out with and if it needs improving I will write him and suggest the improvements.
The thing that excites me about this is that Bernie is getting parts made. That is an interesting slippery slope that he has started down. I could lead to a lot more Cox products being made again. Just something to think about.
Larry

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #8 on:** January 24, 2010, 10:33:40 AM »

All of the COX machinery went to CS Engines in China. This is who is making the tanks for Bernie. I believe that the exacting nature of the original COX engine was the hand fitting of each and every piston to it's cylinder. This was done in a clean environmentally stable room. I saw it.
Larry

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2010, 02:27:01 PM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on January 24, 2010, 10:33:40 AM

All of the COX machinery went to CS Engines in China. ....<snip>....
Larry

Gee, not sure if I should be happy

or sad

. I guess we just can't make anything anymore here in the USofA. I guess I should just get over it.

George · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2010, 09:33:37 AM »

I followed the ESTES site when they were fire-saleing everything near the last. I remember the pics for the BabeBee, Black Widow, and Texaco all looked the same. Perhaps there were verturi differences, etc.

I'm guessing that if Bernie and Xena are getting parts made it is to restore to originals. We'll see.

George

Brett Buck · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2010, 03:01:33 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on January 24, 2010, 02:27:01 PM

I guess we just can't make anything anymore here in the USofA. I guess I should just get over it.

Or buy a PA, RO-Jett, K&B, etc. Doesn't get any more American than Georgia, Texas, or California.

Brett

Alan Hahn · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2010, 03:45:44 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on January 25, 2010, 03:01:33 PM

Or buy a PA, RO-Jett, K&B, etc. Doesn't get any more American than Georgia, Texas, or California.

Brett

Now a PA 049---that would be something!

just remembered---we shouldn't forget Arkansas!

George · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2010, 11:53:58 AM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on January 25, 2010, 03:45:44 PM

just remembered---we shouldn't forget Arkansas!

Yup! You can get a "Dukes Mixture" of engines from them.

George

Tony Vitiello · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2010, 03:38:57 PM »

Well this is my first post here. Flew Black Widows back in the 80's and been away in RC for many years. I wanted to get my kids into 1/2A control line and was saddened to see that you could'nt get the Babe Bee, Black Widow etc.

How are these new ones turning out? Has anyone flown them? I'd love to have some more Black Widows and Babe Bees if they are comparable.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2010, 05:51:52 PM »

Not necesarily cheap, but original Black Widows, Babe Bees, etc. are readily available on e-Bay. On the Black Widow, just be sure it has the stunt vented tank and open, not slit exhaust and you probably are getting the "real thing"

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2010, 07:42:45 PM »

A Sure-start with the venturi drilled out some, is not a bad runner at all. I still have a can full of NIP ones from the $6.95 sell-off. Just gotta check, and usually tighten, the piston/rod ball joint before ever running it.

Stick a BW tank/backplate on it and you have a decent performing, "Black-Widow"-ish engine. Put a Galbreath head w/Nelson plug on it and it's even better.

Course by then you've spent about enough to buy an AP .061 and have a powerhouse. Oh well.

Tony Vitiello · « **Reply #17 on:** July 12, 2010, 11:03:51 PM »

Thanks for the info. I guess electrics killed the Cox engines but for control line I wish they were still around. So aside from the Cox stuff, what is the best choice for an engine comparable to a Black Widow or Babe Bee .049? I heard Norvell is gone too. AP .061 was mentioned?

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2010, 02:35:28 AM »

Brodak makes an .049 front rotor that is about comparable to a Cox reed-valve powerwise (won't run backward though, a plus in my book). I have a Mk I that is not so impressive, mild-mannered but on a good day maybe equal to a Babe Bee; the Mk II is reported to be much better but I have no direct experience with it.

The AP Wasp is an .061, appears to me to be a Norvel clone. The one I have is not broken in yet but seems it will be in the same power range eventually. Certainly head-and-shoulders above the Black Widow, Brodak, etc. as one would expect with the higher displacement. It comes only in RC form though, a pretty cruddy carb on it that can be wired open or replaced with a cl-type venturi, there is an after-market one available manufactured specifically for it.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2010, 05:36:04 AM »

I've never had the opportunity to see a full tilt 1/2A stunter. I suspect there are some out there but what I see most are sport models that dads play with or teach thier kids to fly.
Ray mailed me an .o20 combat style plane with a Cox engine on it and I flew it a bunch of times before I sent it back (in one piece). The plane did well and I had a good time flying it. Right side up or upside down the engine purred right along and gave power enough to do inside and outside manuevers and vertical eights, overhead eights and a cloverleaf too.
It's my opinion that the "new" Cox engines will give us at least as much oomph as we got from the older versions.
Here is a link to aa you-tube video I put up.

http://www.youtube.com/user/frankcarlisle#p/u/4/YIIoaMWJTKI

Larry Renger · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:36:59 PM »

These files are a bit large, so I'll have to post several times. Sorry! Anyway, here is a "full tilt" small stunter.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:38:55 PM »

'Nother one!

Larry Renger · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:39:49 PM »

And one more. Stan Tyler's scaled down Twin Flitestreak.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2010, 03:48:40 PM »

Just one more!

frank carlisle · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:04:50 PM »

Wow! and Thankyou Larry. Your reputation precedes you so I'm not surprised that you have these little gems.
I've builtand flown some of Larry's (Black Hawk Models) hollow log models but so far you and Ray are the only guys I know that are making aerobatic 1/2A models.
I have a plans built 1/2A Fierce Arrow ready to cover. So I'm getting gradually hooked on them. I could get them in a Mini Cooper. I like that car and I'd get one if I could fit my planes in it.
How about mailing me one of those planes to fly for myself?

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:11:59 PM »

yup, I was gonna post a pic of my LittleAxe but couldn't find it quick so passed on it. Also my LilGeo with full flaps, and the flapless SkyWriter that'll stunt with the best of them. (Gotta find those pictures...)

so don't say you've never seen a full-tilt 1/2A stunter!!

Bill Little · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2010, 04:51:22 PM »

HI Ray, and Larry!

Have you ever seen the 1/2A Envoy, or 1/2A Cobra? I have pans for both (and foam wing for the Cobra! )

One of the neatest 1/2A stunters I have ever seen is Ron Burn's Zero. Done to almost full scale outline as is his full size stunters.

Mongo

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:02:47 PM »

Frank,
I am very surprised that you can't shoe horn your big twin into a Mini Cooper.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:46:24 PM »

I'm disappointed Tom. I sold the best little pick up I ever had and used the cash to by an SUV just to haul that plane around.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:49:03 PM »

Well, Bill, we (Black Hawk Models) have been very busy retooling our entire line of kits. I have not seen any of the models that you have mentioned. There is a lot of talk about reviving our 1/2A War Bird series and a P-39 'Cobra' has been talked about for in that series. boy, I'm beat! DOUBLE SHIFTS seven days a week for the last three months ... and ...

Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #30 on:** July 13, 2010, 07:53:16 PM »

Larry did that Prop Shop deal work out? By the way....the new birds in your line up are looking pretty darn good.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #31 on:** July 13, 2010, 08:18:32 PM »

Quote from: Tom Niebuhr on July 13, 2010, 07:02:47 PM

Frank,
I am very surprised that you can't shoe horn your big twin into a Mini Cooper.

yeh, all he's gotta do is just chop the wings off, and maybe the tail...nothin to it. That's what CA is for, isn't it, for when you get it to the field? C'mon Frank, be a little creative.

ray copeland · « **Reply #32 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:11:56 PM »

A pic of my one of my Skywriter's from Minnesota Modeler ! Super Stunter!!

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #33 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:12:26 PM »

Frank,

The prop shop took the first shipment and agreed to honor gift certificates from your Musciano contest. He was to send dealer info for the web site but has not yet. I will have to get after him. Thanks on the models I am very proud of then myself. Working a deal with Enya Engines right now; I do not know how many people will be interested ... they offer a complete line of control line engines.

Larry

Bill Little · « **Reply #34 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:21:54 PM »

Hi Larry,

I think y'all are doing something great with Black Hawk Models. It reminds me (I a TOTALLY GOOD way) of the old Scientific line up, but with improved quality.

As to the Warbird line up, is Walt's "King Cobra" a consideration? Profile fuselage, 27" WS, fully symmetrical airfoil, built up wing, Flew great with a Black Widow.

There was also a P-40, and a P-51 in the series, if my memory is correct. A step up in performance from the hollow logs.

Keep on keepin' on!
Bill Little

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #35 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:44:15 PM »

Yes, those are the planes were making and are looking in bringing back with a couple of improvements like better decals and a better way to mount the landing gear. Of course we do not have the plastic cowlings they had so we are working on away aroung that. There was also a Spitfire and a Hurricane in the Scientific line up, we still are making the Hurricane.
Larry

Bill Little · « **Reply #36 on:** July 13, 2010, 09:49:33 PM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on July 13, 2010, 09:44:15 PM

Yes, those are the planes were making and are looking in bringing back with a couple of improvements like better decals and a better way to mount the landing gear. Of course we do not have the plastic cowlings they had so we are working on away aroung that. There was also a Spitfire and a Hurricane in the Scientific line up, we still are making the Hurricane.
Larry

Sounds great, Larry.

The King Cobra was my first all wood C/L plane. I loved that plane and kept it for years! Finally had to make a wire LG to mount on the firewall, and the canopy, etc., had long bit the dust. I finally found another kit of it (some years aog) but I have not built it yet!

I might template the kit, and save the original.

Keep up the good work and Good Luck to Black Hawk Models!!

Bill

Larry Renger · « **Reply #37 on:** July 13, 2010, 11:15:14 PM »

Full stunt kits, in addition to Ray's, are the Baby Pathfinder from Brodak, and the Sky Sport, Hunter Stunter and Pinto from RSM. Older kits that work really well are the Stork and it's clones from Golden State models (I think). These will all do a competitive pattern. In fact at the Palmer Memorial contest, the 1cc planes ALL beat the Advanced flyers, some of whom were flying big piped ships.

Just below these in performance would be the Baby Flite Streak and Baby Lightning Streak from Brodak (definitely second tier compared to the first batch).

I am currently working on the Sky Streak, which is a forward swept flying wing like the one in my Avatar, except this one is 250 sq.in. for the AP Wasp .061. I have a couple of days work to do on it, so it should be done next year.

The one shown came in 2nd at a contest up in Woodland, CA. I needed 2 pit stops (Black Widow for power, so short runs), but made it with 5 seconds to spare. So you can even be competitive with a Cox reedie engine!

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #38 on:** July 14, 2010, 04:17:39 AM »

With the challenges, performance and potential of 1/2As, plus the practicality (cost, size. space and time wise, not to mention safety) it surprises me that so few fly them. These ain't your daddy's 1/2As!

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #39 on:** July 14, 2010, 04:26:15 AM »

Quote from: ray copeland on July 13, 2010, 09:11:56 PM

A pic of my one of my Skywriter's from Minnesota Modeler ! Super Stunter!!

Now that looks really good, Ray, thanks for the peek...it does fly well, doesn't it?

Tony Vitiello · « **Reply #40 on:** July 14, 2010, 07:16:00 PM »

Well I pulled my Lil Satan off the wall in my office complete with the Black Widow, looked it over, checked the glow head and after sitting 27 years, it started on the first flip. Ran a tank of 30% heli fuel through it and all seemed good. Found my old dacron line and guillows handle, pulled on them and all looked fine. Had 2 flights and both ended in crashes attempting figure 8's (not that I ever did a figure 8 when I flew 27 years ago). Both flights ended in me laughing my rear end off and almost falling down from dizziness. Fixed the minor damage from the second crash in about 5 minutes and ready to try again when I recover from the dizziness in a day or two.

I've been flying RC on and off for the past 30 years but I never realized how much I missed control line til I tried it again. I didn't get dizzy as a kid so I hope that goes away. Hopefully the 1/2A is worst case scenario and when I fly my Shoestring Stunter on 60 foot lines it won't be so bad.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #41 on:** July 14, 2010, 08:59:05 PM »

Anyone can fly a big plane ... where is the skill in that? When you try your next figure eight (and you will) try to remember two things 1) start high with a dive into it and 2) it is an eight not a nine.
The dizziness will go away in a couple of more flights but the fun will continue.

Larry
Black Hawk Models

Joseph Lijoi · « **Reply #42 on:** July 29, 2010, 12:19:33 PM »

Larry

Consider a kit of the Top Flite Junior Aces series, designed by Dave Platt. There was a Hawker Hurricane, P-51 B and Cosmic Wind. Built up fat stunt wing with a lot of area, profile fuse, wing mounted LG. Excellent flyer with a Golden Bee or some used a Tee Dee. One of the best 1/2a's ever.

Keep on Matt at the prop shop. He is a good guy and here in SE Michigan he takes care of us and stocks a nice selection of control line stuff.

Larry Renger · « **Reply #43 on:** July 31, 2010, 06:35:36 PM »

I had the TF P-51, and it was indeed really cool. This was in'69. I am not sure what happened to it, but I wasn't really a good flyer then, so it was probably tragic! It is pretty small by modern standards, about 130 sq. in.?

dennis lipsett · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2010, 07:33:41 AM »

Quote from: Tony Vitiello on July 14, 2010, 07:16:00 PM

Well I pulled my Lil Satan off the wall in my office complete with the Black Widow, looked it over, checked the glow head and after sitting 27 years, it started on the first flip. Ran a tank of 30% heli fuel through it and all seemed good. Found my old dacron line and guillows handle, pulled on them and all looked fine. Had 2 flights and both ended in crashes attempting figure 8's (not that I ever did a figure 8 when I flew 27 years ago). Both flights ended in me laughing my rear end off and almost falling down from dizziness. Fixed the minor damage from the second crash in about 5 minutes and ready to try again when I recover from the dizziness in a day or two.

I've been flying RC on and off for the past 30 years but I never realized how much I missed control line til I tried it again. I didn't get dizzy as a kid so I hope that goes away. Hopefully the 1/2A is worst case scenario and when I fly my Shoestring Stunter on 60 foot lines it won't be so bad.

If your using Cool Power heli fuel at 30% nitro it has 24% oil, all of it synthetic. It will work for awhile but it seems that cox engines like all of the older designs really need just a little castor for their well being. Seems strange I know when you can run a heli engine at 16K in a terrible environment and the engine lives due to modern metallurgy. Problem is the Cox isn't in that catagory and really needs some castor oil to live long and prosper.
Dennis

nathan Metzner · « **Reply #45 on:** August 01, 2010, 08:09:29 PM »

As far as 1/2 A performance goes I think the Black Widow was a little much. I have a golden Bee with a modified carb drilled to Widow specs and a dual port cylinder with slits and she is just about right flys good good power and not so fast that I can't keep up with it. I'm glad to here that Cox int. is starting to make some new parts for us C/L flyers.