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Author Topic: Metal Tank Making  (Read 5215 times)

Offline goozgog

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Metal Tank Making
« on: January 30, 2019, 09:06:21 AM »
  A search shows many ways to construct
metal tanks but here's my low energy,
low investment technique.

  I get good results with Uniflow Mail Box tanks.
They run steady, and give a subtle warning
with a (usually) clean shut down.
The rounded end is easier to make than a wedge
and the Volume is easy to calculate.
There are instant Cylinder Volume Calculators.
Just Google it.

Calculate volume for half a cylinder added to a box.

Picture One

  Sheet steel is everywhere. My favorite source
are the Belgian cookie boxes Wal-Mart sells at
Christmas.
  The steel is .009" thick and is lightly plated and
can be easily cut with scissors.
It solders well after the colored and clear paint
is wiped off with lacquer thinner.

  The wood form is easily made from pine or spruce.
Do your best to keep it straight and square.
Make it so you have 3/16 of wiggle room all around
when you test size it in your plane

Picture Two
  There is only one rule when making these tanks.
Anywhere you plan to attach solder MUST be
sanded clean BEFORE the metal is cut or punctured
This prevents pin holes and helps keep the amount
of heavy solder to a minimum.
Notice that I have sanded around the edges of the
metal before I cut it to size with the scissors.
   I use a sharpy pen instead of machinist's blue
for marking but a sharp pencil is good too.
  My crappy awl made from a broken screwdriver
is important for this project and is a " must have".

  Notice that the cut metal sheet is exactly the same
width as the form but it is longer than needed to
allow trimming.

Picture Three

   Critical to making these tanks is forming the
folded seam. The seam is easy to make but it
allows adjustment and wiggle for installing
the end caps. This is the big trick for getting
everything to fit tightly.

Picture Four

   Use the awl to scribe where you want a
fold. Really lean into it and the metal will bend.
I do not have a bending break, so I finish the
fold over the sharp edge of a table.

Picture Five
   The picture says it all. make the first two
bends using the awl to scribe where you want them,
then wrap the metal around the form and mark where
you want the third bend with a pencil.
Take the metal off the form and scribe with the awl.

  This next part takes judgement.
Put the metal back on the form and mark for
the bend that will fit inside the seam.
Also mark where you want to cut off the sheet
to form the final lip. Make sure the lip is narrower
than the fold that its going to fit into.
Try to keep everything tight on the wood form
but it's not super critical.
DO NOT SOLDER ANYTHING YET.

Picture Six
  We're going to make the forms for the end caps
from 1/8" aluminum.  I'm using a scrap piece of
T6061 which can be cut with wood working tools.
  Trace each end as accurately as possible to the
outside of the metal on the wood form including
the bump of the folded seam.

More to come! 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 12:45:25 PM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2019, 09:34:14 AM »
Thanks so much. Subscribed!

Offline goozgog

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2019, 09:37:24 AM »
PART TWO

Picture One

   Things to notice about these two forms.
They are not identical since they were traced
from each end of the wood form & metal.
Ignore the hole in form #1 but notice the
gentle radius I sanded into the edges to give
the metal a radius when it's peened over to
form a lip.
  Also notice how the bottom edge includes
the profile of the folded seam. It helps to
reduce the amount of solder needed later.

Picture Two

    This is a sandwich of the two forms and
the trimmed .009 sheet showing the amount of
overhang that will be hammered into a lip.
It's about 3/32" overhang.
Be certain to sand it clean for soldering
BEFORE you cut it out with scissors.

   I like to hold this sandwich in a vise but just
using a "C" clamp works well too.

Picture Three

  I use a small smooth faced hammer and
tap lightly to stretch the metal around the form.
It goes easily but needs to be "worked"
especially at the 90 degree corners at the bottom.
You will get little "horns" here which I just grind off.
  You need one cap for each end that "mirror"
each other.

Picture Four

   This is when the long folded seam in the
main body starts to make sense since it
has "spring" which holds the caps tight.

More coming soon! - K.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 09:55:25 AM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2019, 10:46:19 AM »
I need to print this off.  You make it look easy compare to the tanks I make using the Lee Machine Shop metal break. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline goozgog

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2019, 12:29:06 PM »
PART THREE

Picture One

  Just a picture of my soldering tools.
I use the "Lead Free" flux core Electrical
Solder from Home Depot. It doesn't
flow like the old lead based solder but
it's stronger and it works.
 The fine electronic solder has lead and
it flows beautifully but it's way soft.
I use it to fix pin hole leaks.
A Brilliant technique for plugging
pin holes is to attach your fuel syringe
and suck negative pressure in the tank
as you touch solder to the hole.
It draws hot solder into the tiniest hole.

  I mostly use the pencil soldering iron
for this material. It's very controllable and
I can stitch the seams together as I go.
Keep the tip clean!
   The little dollar store butane torches are
for when I need extra heat but you could
use them for everything.

  The flux is just plumbing flux I brush on
where I want the solder to flow.  I feel
that it's absolutely necessary.

Picture Two

   Solder the front cap on first!
Leave the rear cap off to install the
plumbing.
  You should have the wood form pushed into
the open end to expand the tank into the cap
but back it out enough that it doesn't
absorb heat.
   Solder the cap on then work along
the folded seam, pulling the form ahead of
where the solder is flowing to keep the seam
tight and right. I put a wood screw into
the form so I can pull on it.

   Picture Two shows two important things.
Notice that I have cleaned the area around
the hole with emery paper BEFORE I punctured
the hole with the awl.
The second thing is using the awl to make the
hole. It leaves a stretched edge that is stronger
than if the hole was drilled AND the hole can be
tilted to a useful angle.

Picture Three

    This shows how the awl is used to stretch
the hole into an angle.
   I use K&S copper tubing that I anneal just
by heating it and letting it air cool. This makes
the tubing very pliable but it tarnishes it so it
needs to be cleaned with emery paper before
being inserted in the hole and soldered in place.
  Test fit the tubing then remove it and tin the
edge of the hole(s) with solder.

Picture Four

  This shows how I plumb for Uniflow venting.
The fuel pick up is attached close to the rear cap
and the vent is attached 1/4" ahead.
 This prevents incoming air bubbles from being
sucked into the fuel pick up.
  "Uniflow" basically means keeping the air vent
submerged in the fuel for as long as possible,
so having it near the pick up is the way to go.
The vent is uncovered first which gives you a
warning that the engine is about to quit.

  This picture gives an idea how soft the annealed
copper is.  Making it soft and attached at both ends
helps it stand up to vibration.

   If this tank goes on a profile then it doesn't
need a third vent for fueling..  If it goes in a
full body plane then I'll add one .

Picture Five

  Finished!

  OK, we have all seen better and my soldering
isn't brilliant but the advantage of having the
exact tank for a plane is golden.
I like shallow tanks that work well inverted
and this tank is shallow.

  Making the end caps this way means that there
usually isn't any debris inside after it's sealed up.
I flush the tank with lacquer thinner before use
and I ALWAYS use a filter on any metal tank.
  The Cookie tin metal doesn't seem to rust much
but for long term storage I always shoot in a
little after run oil and I keep them plugged.

  This tank holds 6.5 Oz and weighs 2.2 oz
which is a little heavier than a plastic equivalent
but still pretty good.
Cheers! - K.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 04:20:36 PM by goozgog »
Keith Morgan

Offline Chancey Chorney

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2019, 03:14:54 PM »
Wow. Great work. You really make this look easy! Thank you for taking the time to do this very informative post. I will be giving it a try in teh future when I need a tank. I really like the seam idea as I had been doing it a bit differently and I like yours better.

Offline Dave Moritz

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2019, 07:30:53 PM »
Very nice work, and generous of you to share it here!

Two questions on the photo showing the seam circled in white. Both seam bends seem (Ha!) to be done on a radius. I take it that when the seam is pounded flat against the form, extra space on both sides of the overlap provide for the end cap adjustment you mentioned?

Hard to see, but the pic shows what looks like the side edge extending a bit beyond the edge of the form. Is this extra space needed?

Perhaps I'm reading a need for too much precision in all this. At any rate, I think the mailbox tank is the coolest shape out there! Thanks again.

Dave Mo...
It’s a very strange world we live in, Master Jack.” (4 Jacks and a Jill)

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2019, 09:11:02 PM »
I thank you for the details.  Now to build/make the tank for my Flite Streak.  Already have the tank in the Combat Streak. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline goozgog

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2019, 06:27:24 AM »
Hello Chancey and Jim,
  Part of the reason I do these posts is
for entertainment. I like that you are
enjoying them.
  A substitute for defunct model magazines.

Dave,
   Good questions.

  The picture with the circle drawn around
the seam shows the metal sitting high on
the wood form. Actually, It's important that
the width of the form and the width of the
metal be as close as possible as shown in
picture two. ( Tank Sheet Burnish WEB)

   The same picture with the circle shows
how the seam is folded before it is pressed,
or hammered, flat on the form. I showed
it loose like that for clarity.
No radius is intended.
  If you look at the later pictures ,
( Tank Uniflow WEB) ( Tank Cap Trace WEB)
you can see that it gets pressed tight.
Even when it's flattened the
seam can slide around enough to adjust
the fit. That movement really is the trick
to making these tanks.

Hey Doc.

    The reason I started making tanks is because
of Flite Streaks.  That short nose is a @#%^&!
   Have you considered mounting a plastic clunk
tank on the inside. ( Port side) ?
I have started doing this on my Streaks and
Ring Masters and it works perfectly.
I drill a 1/8" hole through the fuselage and
epoxy in a length of copper tubing.
  The fuel feed comes from the tank to the copper tube
and then from the tube to the engine.
Neat and tidy and it works good.
Would a picture help?

Cheers! -K.

   
Keith Morgan

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2023, 01:20:58 PM »
Hi Keith,

I see (and make my own tanks) as pure rectangles, wedges, squares. It makes for fast layout and easy assembly with little thought or engineering required.

I assume that fuel will be outboard in one end or the other based on effective yaw as the plane flies. In short, if the plane yaws nose-out, I assume the fuel will be slung out at the front. Conversely, if the plane has zero yaw , then the fuel may actually be a thin layer across the outboard face of the tank.

In "commercially available tank world", the recommendation is to kick or offset the tail end outboard for reasons above. Of course, those tanks are plumbed with the pickup ending near the rear.

Several pictures of old speed planes show "coffin-shaped" tanks with their fuel pickups "in the shoulder" so yaw cannot pull fuel away from the pickup.

In all of your tank-making have you employed making one end of the tank wider than the other? That is, have you built the tank to negate any effects of yaw as the plane flies around? If so, which end would you build to be the most outboard position?

I'm thinking make the tank wider closer to the engine to minimize the overall "fuel-draw" distance from pickup to NVA.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Offline goozgog

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2023, 04:53:04 AM »
Hey Jim,

  I usually make my tanks
"Constant chord" with no taper.

  I haven't experimented with
odd shapes since I get a good
shut off with the letterbox
profile.

  If you look at the FW-190 video
you can see it gives a warning then
shuts off cleanly.

  Sorry I can't be much more help.

Cheers! -K.
Keith Morgan

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2023, 08:21:12 PM »
Porsche Jim,

Here is an example of a front feed racing tank. The taper is sufficient to keep fuel forward. A partially full tank during takeoff would likely uncover the pickup as the plane accelerates forward and the fuel follows Newtons First Law. For a stunt modification, I would add the typical wedge to the outboard face. This one is vented uniflow, with the top line coming down close to the pickup on the inside. The overflow vent would be capped off were the requisite silicone tubing installed and pinched by the alligator clip.

The second picture is a coffin shaped tank for the same design airplane. You can see how much taper was used on the outboard panel. This tank worked fine also, but was a shade more work, so the style I went to was the simpler forward feed. The coffin tank would seem to be more difficult to add the wedge since you would need one more seam right at the "shoulder."

I would just do the calculations and then make patterns out of cardboard to ensure you get what you want. I am a big fan of laying out the blanks for each piece and folding them up using benders, rather than the "form around a block" technique. As such, either by calculation or by paper or manila folder templates you can get there. Whatever suites your tools and techniques.

Dave

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2023, 08:30:01 PM »
Here's the coffin-shaped tank. (I ran into the size limits....) On this one, you can see the overflow pinchoff tube installed.

Dave
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 10:06:11 PM by Dave Hull »

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2023, 08:36:27 PM »
Thank you, Mr. Hull,
That's both of my questions "in the skin" so to speak.

I take it you like their performance? They sure look the part!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 10:29:15 PM »
These two tanks both work great for racing where all the flying is upright. They are merely two in a long series, so plenty of testing done. But, you could take Goozy's "mailbox method" and apply it to the single-taper tank and you'd have a front-feed sport/stunt tank. Because of the greater potential for sloshing due to the thrashing we do out at the handle, I would increase the taper some.

A few factors on a stunt setup that could affect the tank design choice are:

1. Running a very long standard wedge tank having a long tubing run to get to the back. For example, a six oz tank is going to be six inches long. (I only list this factor first because it is one that was keyed on in this thread.)

2. Running a tank that is too wide or too tall. (This is much more limiting than a tank that is longer.)

3. Running an engine that prefers a lot of castor oil due to increased viscosity.

4. Running an engine that does not have strong fuel draw.

5. Running a fuel filter in the feed line due to the very large restriction compared to the rest of the fuel system.

6. Flying in cold weather using cold (temperature-wise) fuel due to the viscosity increase.

Most of these are not, by themselves, going to ruin your sport/stunt setup. But a combination of them not only can, but will give you trouble. Still, I haven't run across many of those combinations. In essence, it is the engine's ability to draw in flight and during maneuvers, vs. the flow losses due to viscosity and restrictions.

I suspect some of the 1/2A-ish engines are pretty limited on the draw. I know the TD .049 is. The Medallion is not bad. I've got a Killer Bee setup going into a scale plane that is part way built. I think that the draw will be fine if I center the tank and keep the height and width reasonable. Probably a 1-3/4 oz tank with a width of no more than an inch and height of maybe 3/4"?  Testing will tell.

Another engine/setup that I found was somewhat sensitive was the OS .25FP. With the venturi installed (I don't remember the size) it didn't like to pull from a wider/taller tank that the plane came installed when I originally got it. A bit of surgery later, I have that issue fixed.

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2023, 02:06:03 PM »
Hello Dave
                         I also like to make my own tanks using a gallon can that I buy at a friends Auto paint store. I have saved keith`s and your posted information in my docs.Thanks for posting guys.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Juan


Offline goozgog

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2023, 10:07:38 AM »
Juan. That is TIDY!  y1
Keith Morgan

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2023, 06:57:06 PM »
Juan. That is TIDY!  y1
            Hello Keith
                                  Thanks. I built it in 2008 from a Larry Richards Sterling F-94 Starfire kit,the wood was excellent too bad he is not making kits anymore.
                                                                                                                                                                                   Juan

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2023, 05:23:07 PM »
Hello Juan!

That is a really nice plane, my friend. And a custom tank built right off the kit plans. Sweet!

I have not seen a tank geometry that combined a deep outboard wedge with the big radius, making it halfway out to Goozy's mailbox.

ACME Co. used to sell mailbox tanks made out of brass. At least I've seen ads for them in old magazines. The brass was never a good idea since the nitro in the fuel leaches the zinc out, and the extra weight is not attractive, but the shapes might have been what we need.

Dave

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2023, 11:07:58 PM »
Hello Juan!

That is a really nice plane, my friend. And a custom tank built right off the kit plans. Sweet!

I have not seen a tank geometry that combined a deep outboard wedge with the big radius, making it halfway out to Goozy's mailbox.

ACME Co. used to sell mailbox tanks made out of brass. At least I've seen ads for them in old magazines. The brass was never a good idea since the nitro in the fuel leaches the zinc out, and the extra weight is not attractive, but the shapes might have been what we need.

Dave

      I may still have some Acme brand tanks around here, some still in the box, if I haven't already  thrown them away. I used to use them in my early days of stunt, and noticed right away that they started to turn green and grow what i call "pickle relish" in them pretty quickly. SIG musty have had a warehouse full because they carried them in their catalog for quite a long time, but I didn't buy any from them. All mine came in junk boxes I acquired along the way.
    A neat coincidence is that Juan posted some nice photos of the model from the kit that some one was looking for the original kit instruction sheet for, and now I know what it looks like!!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2023, 08:58:35 AM »
Hello Juan!

That is a really nice plane, my friend. And a custom tank built right off the kit plans. Sweet!

I have not seen a tank geometry that combined a deep outboard wedge with the big radius, making it halfway out to Goozy's mailbox.

ACME Co. used to sell mailbox tanks made out of brass. At least I've seen ads for them in old magazines. The brass was never a good idea since the nitro in the fuel leaches the zinc out, and the extra weight is not attractive, but the shapes might have been what we need.

Dave
                     Hello Dave
                                                  I wanted to replicate the tank on the plan for the looks on the plane. It was a challenge since I hadn`t made one like that before.
                                                                                                                                                                       Juan


Offline Juan Valentin

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2023, 09:07:50 AM »
      I may still have some Acme brand tanks around here, some still in the box, if I haven't already  thrown them away. I used to use them in my early days of stunt, and noticed right away that they started to turn green and grow what i call "pickle relish" in them pretty quickly. SIG musty have had a warehouse full because they carried them in their catalog for quite a long time, but I didn't buy any from them. All mine came in junk boxes I acquired along the way.
    A neat coincidence is that Juan posted some nice photos of the model from the kit that some one was looking for the original kit instruction sheet for, and now I know what it looks like!!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

 Hello Dan
                          Here is a picture of the instructions for the Sterling F-94C. In what forum was the guy asking for the instructions do you remember? I might be able to send him a picture he could enlarge and read the instructions.
                                                                                                                                                                               Juan


Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2023, 05:33:46 PM »
   Hello Juan;
     It was over in the Classified section. Dalton Hammett has a kit , plus some parts tracings, but wanted the original instruction sheet to fill out his kit. I do believe he finally found the instruction sheet. I think I have the kit, but not sure how complete it is, not a big priority right now. The F-94 Starfire is a pretty cool looking jet and just catches my eye. Thanks for the offer though!! Much appreciated.
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2023, 03:56:49 PM »
In recent years, I've made my metal tanks, not bought them.

It's another enjoyable part of the hobby -to me, anyway. seems that about 68 years ago a high school shop and several Classes involved forming sheet metal (including aircraft aluminum), or making wooden molds for sandcasting and various metal forming activities. Calculations and drafting for these things were included.

It's a gppd thing that he thin gauge tinplate we're talking about generally does not need specific bend radii for our uses,

Useful info:
Required tank volume (in fluid ounces, most often,)

Approximate 'space' for the tank in the model.

Orientation of the engine and any quirks the engine may have about "...tank height,,,"

Venting  - kind of venting and locations of fill, overflow and venting tubes.

using the info:

Tank capacity in fluid ounces (VOLUME measurements not weights.) where ( 1 fl. oz.requires 1.80 cubic inches.), The volume needed  lets you figure the dimensions. That can be simple, usually isn't.

The old Froom/VECO/?SIG/?Fox tanks = ostly 2" wide, 1"tall with about ab eigth inch web on the outboard wall, were sold as about 1 fl oz per inch of length. Fully rectangular tanks with 1"H and 2" W went almost 1.25 cu inch per inch of length.- in theory. Plumbing and soldered surfaces change capacity.

The tanks I setttled on were mostly 1" high, 2" wide rectangular with a square front and a half-height wedge as the back end, That shape can be laid out for easy forming with straight-line bends. The rear cap wedge is at a 90° and feeds VERY well.

Using an actual dimension drawing on papereasy even with pencil and triangles -  (or printed from a drawing program. Spray glued over machinist's blue on - say - K&S sheet tinplate (about
 ,008" thick) Very ightly scribe through the blue on the paper.

Think carefully and make the bends in a sequence that won't be trapped by a bend that cannot be made halfway home.

The end caps 'flats' are prepared the same way.
\BEST\LOU

Offline brian sisson

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Re: Metal Tank Making
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2023, 07:28:06 PM »
Awesome tank tutorial. thank you for taking the time..


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