Author Topic: I must be doin' sumthin' wrong or my first broken plane--whatever (Read 4377 times)

frank carlisle · « **on:** April 03, 2007, 05:29:51 PM »

So I take out a couple of 1/2A models......The first (and only one) I tried was a BHM Trainer. Tried 20 times to get it airborne----got it aloft 3 times. All 3 times I'd get a lap and a half and the engine would die and the plane dropped like a rock. The wing finally broke off and I marched over to the troublesome little sucker with every intent to stomp it into the dirt. I could hear Jan in the background "No Frank,No Frank". He's seen me settle things with a model or two over the years and recognized the way I was marching. Anyway I got to the airplane and bent over and picked it up. Which surprised me as much as it did Jan. I must be growing up-or getting old. Any way I must be doing something wrong. Why the heck won't that engine run? It ran fine on the bench. Well kind of fine. It didn't seem to want to ramp up the RPM.

Maybe it's the fuel. I had Norvel Special Blend 25% nitro-18% oil in the tank. Prop was a 5X3. Engine a mix of Cox parts
It could be I put the engine together wrong too. But Jan was there with me and he's pretty good at stopping me when I'm getting ready to do something dumb. Seems I've heard No Frank, No Frank quite a few times since he and I started flying together.

I am prepared to continue to bang my head against the wall with these 1/2As and I have 6 or 7 more to try it with..........OR...........somebody could give me a little direction, a helping hand or some advice. I'm not picky.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #1 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:38:42 PM »

Frank;

When you bench ran it was the cylinder inverted as it is on the plane. Just a WAG but that may be the problem?

"Billy G"

frank carlisle · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:41:04 PM »

Yup it was inverted on the bench...........

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2007, 05:43:41 PM »

OK I gotta think about this one I'll be back.

"Billy G"

frank carlisle · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2007, 06:02:21 PM »

I'll be waiting..........I'm seriously thinking about the fuel.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2007, 06:07:38 PM »

OK I'm back. Seems like every thing is right, I agree with you for now. Try new fuel.

"Billy G"

frank carlisle · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2007, 06:57:03 PM »

Quote from: Bill Gruby on April 03, 2007, 06:07:38 PM

OK I'm back. Seems like every thing is right, I agree with you for now. Try new fuel.

"Billy G"

This is a new bottle purchased the other day.....

Got any blend recommendations?

Maybe I should add oil.

Bill Little · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2007, 04:35:02 PM »

Larry Renger who, as you know, designed for C*x, always seems to mention castor oil for the reed valve engines. PM him here!

Is the tank clean??

Bill <><

frank carlisle · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2007, 04:48:53 PM »

Yeah---I've read Larry's posts.....I'm going to mix small amounts of the fuel with additional castor.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2007, 04:58:13 PM »

Frank;

Is that one of the new engines you just got? Maybe the Reed is messed up. I'm no expert here for sure, I'm just pickin at things that I have read, and learnin as I go along.

"Billy G"

frank carlisle · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2007, 05:53:54 PM »

Bill, it sure is one of those new engines.......Right now the plan is to glue the wing back on the plane and once this winter snow storm puffs itself out, we'll take it back out and try a couple different fuel blends. Right now I'm thinking it needs more castor. The fuel we used was only 18% castor.
I think my biggest trouble is not giving the same care and consideration to the running of 1/2As as I would a bigger engine.

We'll see. In the meantime comments and suggestions are welcome. Needed.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2007, 06:00:50 PM »

Quote from: Alan Hahn on April 04, 2007, 05:56:13 PM

Here's a WAG--are you sure the pickup is on the correct side of the tank? I just say this because I could believe that could screw it up if if I inverted the engine.

Now there's a thought.......I'm painting another plane today and don't want to get my hands oily....I'll take it apart tomorrow and get back to you.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:16:49 PM »

Frank, I add castor to the mix I buy, and it's 22% stock I think, half castor and half synthetic (15% nitro). I add enough to get to about 26% oil. Pretty messy but my engines run well on it.

"Dry" fuel may account for its reluctance to rev up, but I'd second the thought on the fuel pickup inside the tank...I also had one that had dropped the fuel line off the nipple completely. It'll run for a little time like that, til the fuel level drops below the nipple. Just some thoughts.

Glad it wasn't the Snapper, or Autogyro, you nearly stomped!

--Ray

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:50:29 PM »

Frank,
Take the end of your fishing line and triple tie it to any of the screw holes in the back plate, now tie a small hook and leader line about 3 feet up the line and head for lake Michigan. The only good part of those last Cox throw away engines was the glow head, the rest belongs as a sinker in lake Michigan.
Dig out any old Cox engine, flush it out with fuel and it will out run that junk that Es%^#&%$ made. Then blow through the reed, no air should pass through. Be sure that the glow head and cylinder are tight. Back flush your needle to wash the dirt out then head to lake Mi-------.
Larry

Bill Little · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:53:18 PM »

Hey, Frank!

Are you still using that shaker can to line off your circles??

Jan Holuszko · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:39:29 AM »

Larry,

Just exactly what is wrong with these new Cox engines? Lake St. Clair is only 3 miles, we can save on gas.

JAN

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #16 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:51:59 AM »

When Leroy Cox ran the show every engine was assembled by hand in a "clean" room with the temperature controlled so that each piston was a perfect match to the cylinder that it went into. After the company was sold that was no longer the case. Engines were tossed together and none cared if they ran or not. When swapping parts from old engines always keep pistons and cylinders together as a set. The old Cox engines were so good, because of the "clean" room, that they bumped all other 1/2a engines off. Fox, Anderson, Holland, Olsen and Rice, K & B, OK, Jim Walker, .........no one could compete. You give that operation to a JUNK company and they make JUNK.
By the way, when I worked for Cox I saw the clean room in action, it was real.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #17 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:10:36 AM »

Quote from: Jan Holuszko on April 05, 2007, 09:39:29 AM

Larry,

Just exactly what is wrong with these new Cox engines? Lake St. Clair is only 3 miles, we can save on gas.

JAN

Jan do you get the feeling that Larry is not pro-Cox?

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:13:25 AM »

Please Frank! I LOVE Cox it is Esties that needs to be shot!

Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:13:51 AM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on April 04, 2007, 08:50:29 PM

Frank,
Take the end of your fishing line and triple tie it to any of the screw holes in the back plate, now tie a small hook and leader line about 3 feet up the line and head for lake Michigan. The only good part of those last Cox throw away engines was the glow head, the rest belongs as a sinker in lake Michigan.
Dig out any old Cox engine, flush it out with fuel and it will out run that junk that Es%^#&%$ made. Then blow through the reed, no air should pass through. Be sure that the glow head and cylinder are tight. Back flush your needle to wash the dirt out then head to lake Mi-------.
Larry

Larry---wouldn't it be cheaper to just go to the tackle shop and buy sinkers? I think the Cox engines would snag on everything on the lake bottom. There has got to be a better use for them than sinkers.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:16:55 AM »

Quote from: LARRY RICE on April 05, 2007, 10:13:25 AM

Please Frank! I LOVE Cox it is Esties that needs to be shot!
Larry

They make great model rockets at Estes!!
BTW---when we were mixing and mtching parts we kept pistons/cylinders together as a set. I think working on the fuel blend will do the trick. I'm going to try Ray's potion next.

frank carlisle · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:20:34 AM »

Quote from: Bill Little on April 04, 2007, 08:53:18 PM

Hey, Frank!

Are you still using that shaker can to line off your circles??

We found one of those thingies to use with the spray cans of ground marker nd have since upgraded from the shaker can. Tell you what though Bill that shaaker can worked great.

This year after I mark the circle I'm going to go around it and spray it with Agent Orange.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:26:10 AM »

Frank
Over the years working as a service center for Cox I have found the problems that I spelled out as the main ones.
Reed not closing tight under pressure ( there should be NO whistle when air in applied)
Loose head
Loose cylinder
Missing gaskets
Clogged needle
Last item was fuel.
Larry

don Burke · « **Reply #23 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:33:03 AM »

Larry,
Thanks for the list. I have to ask where do you apply the pressure to check the reed? I think that if from the intake side it would naturally open the reed.

Bill Little · « **Reply #24 on:** April 05, 2007, 10:34:36 AM »

Quote from: frank carlisle on April 05, 2007, 10:20:34 AM

We found one of those thingies to use with the spray cans of ground marker nd have since upgraded from the shaker can. Tell you what though Bill that shaaker can worked great.

This year after I mark the circle I'm going to go around it and spray it with Agent Orange.

LOL!! Progress! I was still using a shaker can (as well as some of the college and professional teams) for "touch up" between double headers and such!

Agent Orange is good for marking a circle!

Paraquat kills green stuff almost instantly, but "Steritron" is much longer lasting! (up to three years!)

Bill <><

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #25 on:** April 05, 2007, 12:05:33 PM »

Don, you will need to buy a screw driver. Remove the tank or back plate (depending on the engine type). Reed is held in a round protrushion, insert that piece between your lips, get a good seal and blow.....ther should be NO sound .......then suck and air should enter freely.
Hummmm sounds like instructions I told a girl once. That is the only real test.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #26 on:** April 05, 2007, 12:35:39 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on April 05, 2007, 10:34:36 AM

LOL!! Progress! I was still using a shaker can (as well as some of the college and professional teams) for "touch up" between double headers and such!

Agent Orange is good for marking a circle! Paraquat kills green stuff almost instantly, but "Steritron" is much longer lasting! (up to three years!)

Bill <><

In Cleveland last year they treated the circle with some sort of grass and weed killer. The circle looked great!! I think Weed-Be-Gone will be my choice for this season.

Those spray cans don't stretch too far when you are marking out 4 75 foot diameter circles. I had to settle for dots and dashes on the backsides of the circles.

Bill Gruby · « **Reply #27 on:** April 06, 2007, 06:27:41 AM »

Hi Frank

Find out anything yet? Was it fuel ? Was it fuel pick-up on wrong side ? Was it the reed ? Should engine be run upright instead of inverted ? So many unanswered questions, this little bugger boggles the mind.

"Billy G"

More coffee please

don Burke · « **Reply #28 on:** April 06, 2007, 09:32:35 AM »

re: screwdriver/leak test.

I knew it had to be something like that!

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #29 on:** April 06, 2007, 09:43:11 AM »

Don,
When I ran a service center we recorded the troubles that we repaired and in used engines this was 70% of the trouble we found. Usually there would be a squeak sound, not enough to keep the engine from running but enough to make it run bad. Mismatched piston and cylinders were also a big problem with older engines, Black Widow cylinders on Baby Bees were very common.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #30 on:** April 06, 2007, 10:34:53 AM »

O.K. guys-----I took the engine off the plane and dis-assembled it. The pick up tube was properly located. The reed is good as per Larry's test procedure. The piston/cylinder are the same combo that was NIP. It's all pretty clean.

I took a picture of the nose of the plane too. Is it possible the engine can't breathe?

Jan and I made up the pick up tube. How does that look?

Here's the pictures.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #31 on:** April 06, 2007, 11:33:22 AM »

Looking at the pictures there two things that I see that might cause trouble.
1- It looks like you have a leak between the engine and the tank.
2- By the ware marks on the motor mount, it appears that the air flow to the back of the tank is impeded, you may want to add a washer under the two inboard screws. That will allow better air flow and help keep line tension.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #32 on:** April 06, 2007, 12:04:21 PM »

Larry, what is the indicator that there may be a leak between the engine and the tank?

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #33 on:** April 06, 2007, 02:13:37 PM »

Frank,
First let me remind you that I am only using the picture. The forward part of the tank has the usual yellow stain of burnt or old fuel but at the bottom portion there is a place where the tank is clean and the surrounding stain is lighter. If this is not a trick in the photo then fuel has leaked from that area and it was not when you just opened the tank as it would take longer for the fresh fuel to clean the spot.
If there was a leak check by rubbing your thumb over a piece of sandpaper to make it sensitive, then across the back of the crank case to feel if there is any protrusions around the screw holes, also check the length of the screws to be shore that they are the same. Look at the gasket for hair line breaks.
I may be wrong as a photo is not a good way to examine an engine, a magnifying glass is better.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #34 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:38:01 PM »

There does seem to be a burr around each of the screw holes Larry. I'll tend to that before I reassemble it. You have a good eye. I'll put a new gasket on it too.

The picture sucks but it's the best I'm going to get right now.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #35 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:06:14 PM »

Frank,
Don't you have a real Cox engine setting around somewhere? Do you want me to send you one? Or maybe you just need a fishing rod.
ME

Estes
Larry

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #36 on:** April 06, 2007, 04:10:37 PM »

Frank, is that tiny little black "0"-ring on the venturi stack where it mates with the backplate? Easy to lose, and will throw the needle 'way off if it runs at all.

If it's gone you can make an emergency one by slicing a thin piece (1/32"?) of med. or small fuel line.

--Ray

frank carlisle · « **Reply #37 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:15:33 PM »

The 'O' ring is there Larry. As I consider what I may have done wrong I go back to the gasket on the backplate. There were only a couple drops of fuel in the tank when I opened it up. With less than a minute of run time on a full tank there should have been more fuel in it.

Interesting factoid------the long spring in the pick up tube and the spring on the needle valve were both gotten from a Bic lighter.

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #38 on:** April 06, 2007, 06:46:34 PM »

I just got a .06R OK (reed valve) Engine, what a beautiful engine. It has both beam mounts and radial mounts and a white see through tank. A long needle valve with fine threads. It looks so good it doesn't even have to run. I will post pictures tomorrow, tonight I will just sit and admire it.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #39 on:** April 06, 2007, 07:00:25 PM »

Did you get more than one Larry?

LARRY RICE · « **Reply #40 on:** April 06, 2007, 08:17:28 PM »

No, Ted just sent me one as a gift. He said that they are all sold out and he is not planning to make any more. I have an order in for 50 .049R (reed valve with tank) and 50 BR ( reed valve wothout thak), they should be here in a couple of weeks. This engine I will be putting in the pictures of our new kits.
Larry

frank carlisle · « **Reply #41 on:** April 06, 2007, 08:32:43 PM »

I'll be wanting some of each Larry.

minnesotamodeler · « **Reply #42 on:** April 07, 2007, 12:48:33 AM »

If the first run is all sold out already, without even trying, why wouldn't he want to make some more? Seems if they went that quickly, he could even safely raise the price a little...(I know, I know, "bite your tongue"...)

--Ray