I was reminded of the Cox ME109 Super Stunter that I once had when I was younger.

Obviously the replacement wing panels are no longer available from Cox but has anyone found a replacement for them? Possibly making them on a small scale at home?

The blue ones had a free plan in the package so that you could use the panels on a plane you made yourself if you wanted. Was there another plan available with the white Super Chipmunk replacement wings?

Does anyone out there have these plans? I would like to get a copy if possible.

My Me109 was a great flyer.

Robert

I had one of those 109 cox stunters, it was a great flyer compared to the other cox offereings. It seems to me that the wings were actually made from the same kind of foam that the current trend of rc 3d beasts are. I really dont know but it seems like I have heard it described as EPP? but dont quote me on this. For those who never saw them they were actually a sheet of foam that was formed into an airfoil. If I remember it was then slipped over a "stub spar" that was molded into the side of the fuse and held on with tape.

Thanks for your replies gentlemen!

The foam used then is what we today call Depron.

I remember you would fold the "shell" along its leading edge and there was double sided tape on one TE. you peeled the backing off when you pressed the 2 LEs together. Then you slid it onto a plastic box spar (this was molded as part of the fuse) and yes the molded wingtip held the shape at the tip. This would make the wing a thin shell. actually quite thin. remember the strofoam containers that McDonalds used to put their burgers in back in the 70s? like that.

Mr Carlisle your idea of the thin hardware foam is a good idea but the thinnest I have seen it is 1/4" thick (thin?) and that would still be I think too much in the long run. Still that idea has some possibilities.

I am betting that like the insulating foam, the Super Stunter also had a thin plastic film on the foam. On the outside of course. This would help keep the LE from splitting along the seam from that hard crease it incurred when you folded it. I am pretty sure the Mcdonalds containers had it too because of their hingeline This would also explain why the outside was shiny and the inside was "flat" as in "flat black"

Maybe if one could split the 1/4" stuff so that you had 1/8" sheets...This would be a lot closer but I bet still far thicker than the original material.

Now... About those plans???

Robert

Mr. Grogan That too is not a bad idea however I have some of what I think you are talking about already and it is quite dense actually. I got it from Michael's.It is also a great deal thicker than the original stuff that Cox used for their wing.

Density will not be a strong issue if indeed the right foam is found. If memory serves (sometimes it does, sometimes not) the Cox wing was only about 1/32" thick and quite ridgid which means to me that it indeed was quite dense but also much thinner than anything I have seen of late.

The closest thing I can think of is a Dixie brand hot coffee cup that is very thin and ridgid. Still That may be a little too ridgid because the wing was folded along the LE...

Dixie also makes injection molded styro cups as well. Not the same.

And the search continues! Thanks everyone!

Robert

I have one of the FW190  models in the garage.   Built it 20 years ago to try indoor stunt.  Powered it with a 12 volt tape recorder motor and powered it through the lines from a 24 volt battery pack on my belt.  flying lines are #26 magnet wire (copper).  nice thing about electric power, no paint required.  Mine is in original condition except for a ding in the leading edge of the right wing where I tried a 25 ft high wing over but the beams in the gym were only 24 ft high. 

It appears to be a matrial similar to what they make foam picnic plates from and about the same thickness.  Mine is different from the others described here.  Mine has a balsa profile body and a balsa stub spar and balsa tips.  The tail feathers are also balsa.  I increased the size of the elevator for indoor use.

Clancy

Mr. Carlisle those are terrific! Thank you for sharing!

Mr. Arnold That plane sounds like it was built from the plans that were included with the  replacement wing set. I wonder if there was more than one design offered...

I think that Cox was hoping the foam wings would take off like Ace Mfg. Mini foam wings did and have a number of designs published in the model magazines that would use them.

Robert 

Hey guys theirs a set for sale on ebay #160075875111 Check it out

Ok folks a good start on how to mold the foam!:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=583794&highlight=wing+baking

This is for the 1/4" thick fanfold insulating foam available from Lowes.

Now to see about using this on 1 or 2mm depron!

Robert

Cox has a fairly new foam stunter .Saw one at the field last summer.I know our LHS had at least one . Maybe those have replacement wings you could use?

 

Does anyone out there have these plans? I would like to get a copy if possible.

My Me109 was a great flyer.

Robert
[/quote]

Check yor email.  Sent you the FW190.

Ray said: " that's one s-l-o-w site."

I remember that it was slow but the one luxury I afford myself is a cable connection for high speed. I only have 12 cable TV channels ( the most basic, basic service not even listed in their price tier) but I do have quick downloads!

1957chev, I can hardly believe my size guesses were so close! Makes me feel good. I don't even care I didn't get them all correct. Thank you friend for giving us all the actual measurments. Yes I remember how freakishly heavy those tips were. I had no idea what to do about them when I had mine. I did know that if I left them off that the structural integrity of the wing would suffer.

Thank you Mr. Siegler, It came through no problem.
I wonder who designed and drew up the FW190 plan. Cox takes all credit for the plan and no credit to the designer. Could have been an in-hose employee or they may have simply paid someone outright for it... Surely some one knows. I would like to thank that man for his efforts and like to see if there were others that were not chosen.

1957chev, I agree some really nice new wingscould be cut from solid foam. I have been toying with that idea some myself. I am in the process of gathering the components to do this myself. This should be done within a week. The bow has yet to be constructed.

Uh I checked Midwest for there Cellfoam and the thinnest was 3mm. Too thick for my tastes.

I think that the molding process will add to the rgidity of the wing but one cut from solid foam will not be as rigid for the same thickness.

In passing has anyone used tha Ace Mfg. mini foam wings for 1/2A C/L?

Mr. Rolley thanks for your efforts sir! Certainly both wings and Fuse shells could both be done. We shall be the ones to reap the benifits from these experiments.

Robert

Uh-oh.

hmmmmmmmmmmm...............

Is this because you also have a secret life as a Dow, blucor, fanfold junkie?

Regardless , that hmmmmmmmmm seems rather pleased and satisfiying...

Robert

Mr. Carlisle, of course this thread mainly pertains to the Super Stunter wings and how to  replace them as they are now the supply is almost non existant.

That said I wish to make clear that if anyone can benifit from what is posted here in any way to help with any aspect of their own modeling techniques, material usage or if you are simply entertained by the posts here then I will have gained satisfaction of my efforts.

I feel deeply that these wings made a huge impact in the performance increase in small flying models. I was so impressed years ago and this impression has resurfaced in my life and I know others also shared the experiance.

That said I also wish to make clear the purpose of this thread. To be able make for ourselves wings of the same caliber. They would not have to be constructed from the same exact material nor would they need to have the exact same color, airfoil or dimensions. The underlying structure can vary. The methods of making them can be whatever we have available to us presently, or could be newly developed.
The end result would be to encourage each other, to share ideas that can promote this hobby and to otherwise make our hobby more rewarding. If this means we are able to make a replica of the same dimensions and properties that could be used to replace the Super Stunter's wings and get'er back in the air then that would be great. To be able to use these alternative wings for use on the Focke Wolfe 190 plan offered by Cox specifically designed to use the Super Stunter wings would be also be a plus.
I intend that this be carried further to new designs for these wings and further to come up with new ways of doing what we like to do. This of course would carry over to other types of models.
If this helps with making strong, light fuses, wheel pants, cowlings or wing struts then I will be happy!

Cox has a fairly new foam stunter .Saw one at the field last summer.I know our LHS had at least one . Maybe those have replacement wings you could use?

Mr. Kientz, This could be one answer to new light designs based on this wing. I wonder why it has not already been done or if it has, why it has not been shared here. To my knowledge this is a solid foam wing (I have not seen one in person) that most likely has been injection molded. I have not seen these wings for sale unless you buy the whole plane. I have seen other parts for sale.

Enough talk, lets get to work!

Robert

Gentlemen, thanks for your kind words on the C*x Me109 wings.  They were my doing. 

In addition to the Me109 and Chipmunk variations in plastic, there was the Skyfire published in Flying Models May 1975 and kitted by M&P Models around August of that year.  Of course there was also the free plan for the FW-190 that came with a set of wings as a promo for the Black Widow engine (or separate purchase).

I revisited the Skyfire design with a wire-cut foam shell wing.  The surface was brown wrapping paper applied via a vacuum bag system.  This one was published in Model Aviation in Feb 2002.  Very strong, very light, very smooth!  What's not to like?

On the "never saw the light of day" front, there was a Crusader with moveable flaps and a combat wing that used the original wings. 

Eventually the little Crusader with a different set of wings made it to production.

Due to the difficulty of finding a vendor willing to set aside production for egg cartons and hamburgers, the wing was redesigned in solid foam (I don't know who did that, I wasn't at C*x at the time).  The model gained nearly an ounce and did not fly as well.   =(

Larry, I want to thank you for what you did! how were the molds made for this? I wonder if I could somehow talk  an egg carton producer to run a batch of some if I were to make or get the molds? This is a glimmer of hope for me.
As for the originals I just got a pair of white ones and a pair of blue ones to have and to hold...

Oh by the way Larry, Guess what came in the mail today for me? here is a clue...Does it strike a chord with you?

Robert

Tears to my eyes guys!  Thanks.

Ugly Bug?  Actually a fun use for Ace Foam wings, which, by the way are again available.  Wonder how it would fly as a UC stunter?  Naaaah!

For the ETO, you could do a Jug or a Mustang.  What else was there other than a Spitfire?.  I suppose you could do a Hurricane because it had straight tapered wings, but it was badly outclassed as I recalled.  If you were willing to go a bit farther afield, I think there were P-38s used in the ETO, so how about a couple of TD .020s?  A Mosquito twin would be fun too!  Real aircraft are not actually my forte', my education not withstanding.  Theory, not history was the goal.   

I haven't the contacts anymore to come up with a supplier that could do the wings.  I would have to research it from scratch.  As far as the molds were concerned, they were a couple of contour machined matching aluminum plates with water lines built in to allow cooling.  The foam sheet is on a roll in mostly un-expanded form.  It rolls through a top and bottom heating area where it softens and expands.  Then it goes to the molding station where it is shaped and chilled back to rigidity.  Final station is a pair of matched die cutting plates that shears around the outline to produce the finished wings.  The whole process takes less than a minute for each wing, but of course, 3 sets are being processed at any point in time.  So production is pretty quick.

As I recall, we had a "2-up" mold that produced a pair of wings at the same time.

The key with forming foam is to get it heated to just the right temperature from both sides so it can be molded.  One side heating would melt that side without getting the other one hot enough.  For wing shells that are to be hand worked, you could probably use a good vacuum-forming machine and just pull the sheet down over a male or female form.  We used two sided molds to get the "hinge" and the surface markings plus the taper at the trailing edge.

It is a lot easier to find a molder to do "bead foam" like the Hyper Viper wings and the 2nd run of Me-109 wings.  Jim Walker produced a beautiful and very high performance 1/2A wing in bead foam.  He had an upper shell with some internal structure and a matching cover for the bottom.  It was feather light and had an excellent airfoil. 

As an old Glider Guider, I have foam cutting and vacuum-bagging equipment.  The Skyfire 05 wings were eminently satisfactory both from a strength and airfoil standpoint.

However, baking foam sheet over a carved mold sounds pretty straightforward to me if you don't have the stuff I do.

For a tapered wing, you can carve left and right halves, or do it the cheezy way and mold a straight panel, but cut a taper into it.  The tip airfoil won't be very good, but it's a start!  Another trick would be to glue in a tapered foam wedge that you carve to make a more rounded leading edge.  That can be covered with clear tape or trim Moneykote to make it fuel resistant.  Doing that, I suspect the straight formed wing would come out pretty well.

True, Actually there have been 7 sets this week! This of course after a terriffic dryspell. Now might be etha besy time to buy since so many have been offered.

Robert

FYI. I went and measured the material on the wing of my Cox FW-190 and the white foam is .062 inch thick.

Clancy

As I recall, we found that the 5x3 black prop gave enough more rpm to make up the difference in diameter and produced the best flight performance.

Of course, a drilled venturi, Tee Dee piston and cylinder, and Galbreath/Nelson head would help too.

There was an article I did in the October 1974 issue of Model Airplane News (they actually did CL stuff then!!!) called "Super Tune your Super Stunter" telling what I knew then about making it perform extra well.

I did, by the way, design both the FW-190 and Skyfire models too.

Keep us posted on making new wings, guys, they work awfully well! (Modesty is only one of my multitude of virtues!    )

Using the 5X3 was the reason I brought this up. Seems most of the Cox offerings were over propped. Back in the day I always thought a 6X3 was the most normal prop to use on most all .049 applications. The 5X3 three bladed prop was also one of my favorites because it hit the ground less often.
However, My Golden Bee soon had a Tee Dee cylinder and piston which really made a difference along with the high compression Tee Dee head. I tried a number of different props and finally decided that the Top Flite 5.25X4 Nylon was my favorite. This was not a wide blade prop like many of the others. It happily screamed at fantastic revs (I did not have a tach to properly check things, so it was mostly by ear and by observation that I made my judgements) and pulled like I really wanted!

I never really considered how over heated the engine would be or the loads exerted by the larger props. Ahh the things we learn over time.

I wish I had seen that article on souping up the Super Stunter. I was not aware of this till recently. Wish I had a copy now!

Robert   

As I recall, we found that the 5x3 black prop gave enough more rpm to make up the difference in diameter and produced the best flight performance.

Of course, a drilled venturi, Tee Dee piston and cylinder, and Galbreath/Nelson head would help too.

There was an article I did in the October 1974 issue of Model Airplane News (they actually did CL stuff then!!!) called "Super Tune your Super Stunter" telling what I knew then about making it perform extra well.

I did, by the way, design both the FW-190 and Skyfire models too.

Keep us posted on making new wings, guys, they work awfully well! (Modesty is only one of my multitude of virtues!    )

Hi Larry,

Didn't realize you did the designon the FW-190!  I have some new wings and still have a plane I built years ago, somewhere around here! LOL!!!

When I was a kid learning how to fly CL my dad was convinced that a 6x4 was the idea prop for 1/2a.  My brother and I didn't really know what else was available at the time.  We ended up cutting a lot of props down to 5x4 or 4.5x4.  Today, about thirty years later, I tend to use 6x3 props or smaller/less pitch.  Dad isn't convinced.

I recall that I used 2lb blue foam, and cut the panels about 1/4" thick.  After a year, the panels had sagged inward thinning the airfoil, so now I would put at least one rib in the middle of the wing to assure that the airfoil stays where I want it.  An alternative would be to add a "spar" bump to the high point inside the wing.