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Author Topic: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray  (Read 4111 times)

Offline Mark Mc

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Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« on: March 25, 2021, 10:50:35 PM »
I had a message asking me to post the build details of my built up wing Skyray.  I originally did a build thread on my built up wing Skyray back in August of 2017, but the pictures seem to have disappeared.  So I’ll do an abbreviated thread here.

I pulled my spare Skyray kit out of the closet and pulled off the plastic. Taking out the printed wing sheet and measuring it, the wing chord is 4.75” and the span is 23.75”, giving about 110sq.in. of wing area.  I figured I’d just print a reduced Skyray 35 rib template to get a 4.75” wing chord.  53% was just right. Voila!



Then I cut out the rib templates and pasted them to cardboard template stock.
 

I popped the Skyray fuselage out of the die cut wood and drew the outline of the fuselage on some paper.  Marking a reference line fore to aft on the fuse, I drew the outline of the rib template on the reference line.  Then I marked the firewall and figured out where the prop drive plate would be on a Babe Bee engine.  From that I worked back from the drive plate of a Medallion and drew in the maple engine bearers, the doublers, and the gear leg.  Then I erased and drew, drew and erased, erased and drew until it looked right.  Once I was satisfied, I drew the tail surfaces on the sheet.





Next I just drew up the wing on three sheets taped together, and it’s ready to go.   




Presenting the Skyray 110!  More to come.

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2021, 03:16:01 AM »
           Mark, I really thought this was a cool project you did. I recalled it from years back and kept it in the back of my head. Nicely done. I cut my teeth on the original Skyray so I've always had a place for it. I just always wanted to do what you did with one to see how much performance could be achieved from it. Ken

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2021, 07:22:18 PM »
Next I cut the ribs for this thing.  I drew in some nose ribs on my wing plan like the full size Skyray has, not sure yet if I’d use them, as I’m not too partial to a bunch of nose ribs.



Digging in my box, I found I did have enough 1/8” spruce for the spars on hand.  That was the only thing I wasn’t sure about for the build. 

I taped down the wing plan and covered it in plastic wrap.  Then it was just a straight forward build from there.  I find I like the nose ribs more than I thought I would.







Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2021, 12:58:13 AM »
After that, I covered the wing with Sky Blue Monokote.  Then I glued everything together and installed all the hardware.  It still needed the final trim, though.  The flight ready plane will have a Medallion instead of a TeeDee, but I just grabbed the first convenient rotary valve engine to drill the mounting holes.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I finally finished the plane.  Trim is just Monokote trim sheet cut into strips and overlaid to replicate the factory scheme.  The tank is a ¾ ounce Perfect wedge tank on suction.  The Medallion is a well-used engine pulled from another model. Prop is a Cox 5x3.







The total weight is 5.7 ounces.  More than I’d hoped for, but still be plenty light enough for the Medallion .049.  My son’s slab wing Skyray with a black widow weighed 6.3 ounces, so I’m ahead of the game.

Mark

Online ray copeland

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2021, 07:51:57 AM »
Awesome job Mark!!! Hope it flies well, i love the weight. How bout a flight report when you get around to it, i would like to see the run time with that tank engine combo. My next project will be a 1/2a sig Akromaster.
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2021, 11:44:30 AM »
Next I cut the ribs for this thing.  I drew in some nose ribs on my wing plan like the full size Skyray has, not sure yet if I’d use them, as I’m not too partial to a bunch of nose ribs.



Digging in my box, I found I did have enough 1/8” spruce for the spars on hand.  That was the only thing I wasn’t sure about for the build. 

I taped down the wing plan and covered it in plastic wrap.  Then it was just a straight forward build from there.  I find I like the nose ribs more than I thought I would.







Half ribs are better than nothing.  But leading edge sheeting really makes for a good true airfoil.  The sagged covering between the ribs takes away much of the benefit of built up wing.
Paul Smith

Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2021, 01:58:57 PM »

  Did I miss something, I don't see any posts to this topic and it said 5 reply's ??   How did I miss them?
8th Air Force Veteran
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Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2021, 03:00:03 PM »
  Did I miss something, I don't see any posts to this topic and it said 5 reply's ??   How did I miss them?

   There are exactly 8 replies to this thread, counting this one of mine and yours, with lots and lots of photos. You are evidently missing a lot!!
   Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 07:45:20 PM »

 U R rite, oops
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 09:22:28 PM »
That looks a lot better than the slab wing version.  Waiting for flight reports. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2021, 06:02:11 PM »
After that, I covered the wing with Sky Blue Monokote.  Then I glued everything together and installed all the hardware.  It still needed the final trim, though.  The flight ready plane will have a Medallion instead of a TeeDee, but I just grabbed the first convenient rotary valve engine to drill the mounting holes.







-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I finally finished the plane.  Trim is just Monokote trim sheet cut into strips and overlaid to replicate the factory scheme.  The tank is a ¾ ounce Perfect wedge tank on suction.  The Medallion is a well-used engine pulled from another model. Prop is a Cox 5x3.







The total weight is 5.7 ounces.  More than I’d hoped for, but still be plenty light enough for the Medallion .049.  My son’s slab wing Skyray with a black widow weighed 6.3 ounces, so I’m ahead of the game.

Mark

Mark,
I like it, but where are the Wing tip on this little guy?  Hope it flies as well as it’s big brother,

Later,
Mike Pratt

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2021, 12:12:59 AM »
Mike,

I have a lot of that sky blue MonoKote to get rid of, so I figured it'd be perfect for this.  But MonoKote users know how crappy the new stuff is, especially trying to make it conform around sharp corners.  I knew if I tried to do those tiny little wingtips with MonoKote they would just come out tacky and wrinkled, so I left them off.

Mark

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 10:45:10 PM »
Okay.  I went out to the field to fly some planes today.  Day was a total disaster.  But I did bring along the Skyray 110.  I gave the handle to Jim Cameron, the field hotshot and told him to wring it out and “don’t worry about breaking it.”  He said it was a blast.  Lots of insides, outsides, inverted, overhead 8’s, lazy 8’s.  I even think he tried a couple of squares, but it was booking along too fast for me to be quite sure.  Plane was running a TD.051 on bladder using SIG 25% fuel.  35’ Spectra lines.  It’s a good thing I decided to slow it down with an APC6x2 prop instead of the 6x3 prop I usually use for TD’s on bladder.

Afterwards several people came over to find out what engine I was running on it.  Seemed to be the hit of the day.

Sorry for the shaky video, I didn’t realize how much I was moving my head.






Oh, and a correction on the covering.  It’s light blue Econokote. 
Mark

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 02:27:55 AM »
So you took off the metal tank and were flying with a bladder?

Seems like it was a little lean, maybe? Or was that just doppler?

Were your line lengths limited by the trees, or could you go longer? I have a Lil Satan with a pretty close to stock Black Widow and on 26' lines it'll screw you into the ground. On 35's it is still pretty quick with decent tension. Haven't tried it on 42's yet. I was probably running a Cox 5x3 or 5x4 prop.

Looks like enough fun to get the adrenaline going.....

Dave

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2021, 04:06:56 PM »
So you took off the metal tank and were flying with a bladder?

It's a TD.  Front rotary valve and high performance.  Not a reedie.
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2021, 08:46:18 PM »
Dave,

Like Tim said, it's a TD.  Overkill for a 110 Sq.in. plane, but go big or go home.  One of the other guys had his combat plane there.  This was faster, and almost as responsive.  He suggested I bring this out to their next match as a sleeper.  With a little more elevator, I think it might even work.  Obviously wouldn't win, but it'd be like the Minivan at the track that takes on a Porsche.

I find I'm loving the constant run of a bladder on my planes these days.  I flew it with the Medallion, and it flew fine, but I switched to the TD to get rid of the wedge.  The plane was actually 400 or 500 RPM rich of peak.  No need to push hard with this small a plane.  I'm debating the fine needle thing on a Medallion where you take a 128TPI needle from a postage stamp engine and JB Weld it into the Medallion plastic body.  The consistent run of a bladder along with the mild sport performance of a Medallion would be perfect for this plane.  I also have another idea I want to try when I get some free time.

The grass field we fly 1/2A in is a little limited.  If you stand in just the right spot, and don't wander off that spot, you can fly with 60' lines without hitting a tree branch.  The paved circle is much more preferred for the longer lines.  But there's plenty of room for the standard length lines below that.  I'm going to make up a set of 42' lines for this before I take it out again.

Mark

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2021, 02:59:55 PM »
I'm debating the fine needle thing on a Medallion where you take a 128TPI needle from a postage stamp engine and JB Weld it into the Medallion plastic body.

Postage stamp engine?

Texas Timers has a generic 1/2-A, 128 TPI needle valve assembly, including a little "how I dun it" mini-article on putting one into a Medallion.  May be worth looking.  (That link doesn't take you straight to their needle valves page; you've got to look around a bit).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2021, 07:28:08 PM »
Postage stamp engine?

Texas Timers has a generic 1/2-A, 128 TPI needle valve assembly, including a little "how I dun it" mini-article on putting one into a Medallion.  May be worth looking.  (That link doesn't take you straight to their needle valves page; you've got to look around a bit).

    Well, as usual, according to the web site they are no longer available and no more will be made. That is usually the way it goes!!

   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2021, 08:36:00 PM »
Postage stamp engine?

As Dan says, TT is out of the fine NVA business.  I do have several postage stamp and old horseshoe backplates that have fine needles that I can scavenge.  I do have one fine NVA I got from TT before they ran out that's been sitting in my spares box.  I thought about the JB Weld thing, but don't want to do it because it permanently modifies the needle and the venturi.  I do have a couple of "out there" ideas I'm going to try.  Not anything I'd recommend, but just kind of field expedients so that you can run a bladder without modifying the Medallion venturi body.  I tried one of the ideas last night, and it seems like it will work.  I'm going to try the other idea out now.  If it also seems feasible, I'm going to fire them up on the test stand tomorrow morning before it gets to 100.

Mark

Online Crist Rigotti

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2021, 08:38:07 PM »
Mike,

I have a lot of that sky blue MonoKote to get rid of, so I figured it'd be perfect for this.  But MonoKote users know how crappy the new stuff is, especially trying to make it conform around sharp corners.  I knew if I tried to do those tiny little wingtips with MonoKote they would just come out tacky and wrinkled, so I left them off.

Mark

Exactly right!
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2021, 09:12:51 PM »
Monokote is heavy for a 1/2A, not to mention inflexible for small radii.  You're better off with cheap low temp film or tissue or silkspan & dope.

If you need to fly 1/2A in a small circle use at least 200 square inches & a thick airfoil.

If built light, a 15-size Clown goes great with a TeeDee .049.
Paul Smith

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2021, 10:43:28 PM »
Hmmm.  I guess I was depending too much on the picture of the plane that Mark posted. It obviously has a TeeDee, but that shiny thing that is strapped on with rubber bands right behind it seemed to be a metal tank.... or maybe it's just a UFO that escaped from the DOD study?

The trees sure seemed close in the video. I've seen a couple of guys put a plane into the trees and it's kind of a pain.... but if you've got 60' to the obstructions then a bit longer lines on your SIG Demon might be worth trying as you say. Probably get an extra rush watching the plane go by such close obstacles?

The Divot

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2021, 08:54:35 AM »
... but if you've got 60' to the obstructions ...

Barely 60'.  It's better to fly on shorter lines in that particular circle.  I've seen collisions between wingtip and tree there, on 60' lines.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2021, 09:09:10 AM »
Gentlemen, I hate to threadjack, but my questions are related to flying 1/2A...sorry, Mark.

Mr. Paul,

I'm astounded by your model!
Can it fly the pattern on the Tee Dee? What length lines?
What did you have to do to balance the model, given the smaller, lighter powerplant? How much fuel can it carry? And, lastly, can you provide more details regarding that tank?

If you need to fly 1/2A in a small circle use at least 200 square inches & a thick airfoil.
If built light, a 15-size Clown goes great with a TeeDee .049.

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2021, 08:14:44 PM »
My Clown can fly BOTH the OTS and the AMA stunt pattern on a single one ounce pacifier of fuel.

Yes, the nose is a little longer than the 15-powered racing version.
Paul Smith

Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2021, 07:12:26 PM »

  Mr Smith where can a fellow get one of those Flying Clowns ???   T I A
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2021, 04:30:57 AM »
I thought I'd try and go back to a Medallion instead of a TD to see if I could tame this down a little.  But I still wanted the bladder consistency.  So I modified a Medallion .049 to run on bladder pressure.  I'll still make up a set of 42' lines for this, but we'll see how the Medallion goes.  It still seems that it's turning pretty hot at almost 19K.





Mark

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2021, 05:21:15 PM »
I'd try some combination of richening it up, and restricting the air coming in.  If you're using a stock Medallion cylinder then you've probably got sub-piston induction; that's going to limit just how far you can restrict the intake (restrict how far you can limit the intake?  Uh -- anyway).

I'd just do the "pile nylon mesh on the inlet" thing and see if you can slow it down enough to be fun.  If that doesn't work, scale it up by 20 or 30 percent -- a 150 to 200 square-inch plane may be a better fit for a Medallion.

Or let Cameron fly it -- he likes fast.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2021, 04:10:37 PM »
What did you do to the engine to set it up for bladder pressure?   ???
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2021, 11:29:24 PM »
How I dunnit...

I found that a 5/32” brass tube is a tight press fit in the Medallion NVA holes.  The standard fine thread NVA from a postage stamp backplate is a loose fit in the tube.  The first thing I did was take my calipers and measure across the sides of the venturi where the stock NVA goes.  It’s 0.375” across.  I cut a piece of tubing that width and then measured the venturi.  The width of the throat is about 0.175”, so I marked 0.1” from each side of the tube.  I then used my Dremel to cut out the center of the tube, leaving a thin strip between the ends.  This made a nice carrier for the NVA barrel.  Hmmm… the cuts were not too even.  Next attempt I will take more time cutting the tube to ensure everything is square.





I then soldered the NVA barrel into the carrier, ensuring the brass strip was opposite the hole in the barrel.  Afterwards, I took my jeweler’s files and smoothed and shaped the brass backing strip so that it was narrower than the NVA diameter to allow full air flow through the venturi.






Before installing, I took some coarse sandpaper and ran it lengthwise along the carrier to knurl the tubing so it wouldn’t rotate in the plastic.  Then I just pressed it in with the hole pointing down.  The hole’s a little off-center, but since it’s bladder pressure that doesn’t matter. 







So, the first few times I tried to run the engine, it wasn’t starting.  Seems the two Cox glow heads I tried were pretty weak.  I put on a Merlin adapter and insert, and Bazinga! (©Chuck Lorre Productions, all rights reserved.)  It seems a hair over-compressed, maybe.  I may try another glow head gasket.  But 18,650 or thereabouts seems pretty good.  It’s a Medallion, not a TeeDee.  Who knows what another gasket might gain or lose?  I’ll fly it and see if I want to mess with it or just leave well enough alone.

Now that I’ve experimented and I know how I want to do this, I should be able to do the next one in about an hour.  I have six or seven of the fine NVA assemblies on hand for further experiments.  I find being able to do this with Medallions as well as TeeDees is quite nice.  Also, next I am going to try this on a Medallion .09 I have on a White Lightning.  Maybe this Thursday or Friday.

Mark

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2021, 02:12:29 PM »
Nice work!   H^^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2021, 01:48:04 AM »
I Was Wrong!    (make a note of it, you won’t hear me repeat those words again.)

I thought that I had this on 35’ lines, but when I looked at it today, I actually grabbed the 30’ lines handle when I initially hooked this up last time.  Since I wanted to see if the Medallion pulled the plane slower, I kept the 30’ lines for the first flight.  It is slower than the TD on the same lines.  Then I put on some 35’ lines.  This is about right now.  The engine is a little over-compressed, so I’ll add another head shim before the next flight and see how it goes.




Next, I have an idea for a handle I want to try to see if it will make flying smoother when I’m back on the circle.

Mark

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2021, 08:02:19 AM »
RSM sells an exponential 1/2 A handle that really smooths out level flight but progressively allows full maneuverability. Many flyers have enjoyed the result.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2021, 12:40:54 PM »
Larry, I've seen that handle, but I don't want to use line clips.  I like the convenience of just winding the lines around the handle, so I'm going to go with an idea of my own.  If that doesn't work I may go ahead and order the RSM handle.  I do use your expo handle for my larger planes, though.

Mark

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2021, 02:44:10 PM »
Glad to hear you like the expo concept. Haven’t pushed my handles for a while, but can still make a bunch of kits.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2021, 03:08:11 PM »
Glad to hear you like the expo concept. Haven’t pushed my handles for a while, but can still make a bunch of kits.

Well, I am just at a beginner level in my flying, but I find that the expo handle helps me with over-controlling when pulling out of loops and wing-overs.

Mark

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2021, 09:23:05 PM »
You can certainly substitute continuous line from the handle to the model if you don’t want line clips. The 1/2A handle has fiber leadouts you can choose not to use. Cut a notch in the top and bottom of the handle and you can wind up the lines on them.

And no, I have no financial benefit from sales of this design handle.

But if you want a big model, low overhang, exponential handle, I sell kits for that. 😃
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline 944_Jim

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2021, 07:03:36 PM »
Mark,
I have the RSM 1/2A handle (the Renger handle) and love it! I like Iit enough that when I stupidly left my first "at the field," I immediately bought a replacement. I especially appreciate being able to respace the lines by replacing an insert. This makes tuning for a given airframe really easy!

I am keenly watching for your Medallion .09 NVA mod. I have RC engines in .09 and .15 (x2 each size) acquired on the cheap for beat up linkages. All four need regular spray bars, but I haven't found any yet. Your idea may be a quick way to get the engines running!

Thanks much,
Jim in NE MS

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2021, 10:03:42 PM »
Jim,

Unfortunately, I won't be able to play with the .09 Medallion for a while.  We've just decided to sell our house and move South for pre-retirement.  We've just had it with Portland, and I've been in my job for 26 years now, so it's time to change.  All my stuff is packed up, so no projects until we get settled into the new place.  We put down our earnest money yesterday on a new construction home, and arranged for a temp apartment, so life is on hold for a while.

Mark

Online Dan McEntee

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Re: Built up wing 1/2A Skyray
« Reply #39 on: September 11, 2021, 11:17:01 AM »
   Good luck to you Mark! I hope everything works out quickly for you.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)


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