frank
Any odds on whether it will fly inverted?
bob
Leroy,
I'll send the kit out tomorrow. I still have your address. Do you still have mine? The kit price is listed $32.95. Send that I'll cover the shipping.
Larry,
With spare blades on hand they probably won't break, but if I didn't have spare parts they'd be certain to break. It's a law. I forget the guys name though.
It's one of "Murphy's Laws". #^ :!
Frank
You are referring to Murphy's Law.
He also wrote:
If (N) parts are required, (N-1) are available.
The most expensive part will fail first, unless there is a part that is harder to replace.
Clancy
I'm still thinkin', Frank. Very tempting, you know how I like oddball stuff. Just not sure where I'd find the time to build it. I'm not a kit collector like some of you guys are!
Oh, hey, send it on...can I PayPal you? $32.95, right? Any S&H?
--Ray
$32.95 to you Frank?
If you do not mind my input, if you are using Brobak's .049 with the three screws in the backplate you could cut a thin metal plate to mount under the screws and secure it iver the landing gear or you could put the gear behind the bulkhead and use Brodak's mounts.
The airfoil is meant to be a flat A/F. Simply round the leading edge. Unless you too think that inverted flight is a doable thing. DK^
Larry
I have a mind like a steel trap. Closed...and rusted...
Now that's rich..................
Well it's Saturday morning here in the Carlisle house and I have a progress picture to post.....I'll be using the kit landing gear after all. And I'm afraid I'm going to have to cover this one with tissue, so for sure it won't be ready to go by Monday.
On the sunny side though- look how big that wing is. I'm sure this thing will loop with a Golden Bee on it's nose.
Ray do you think yellow would be a good color choice?? BUT....do you think it would fly if it was white and blue?
Only if you put some stars on it. If you have any left. And maybe some red somewhere.
--Ray
Lookin' real good, Frank. How light a fuselage did you wind up with? I've got mine down to about 1/2 oz., hope to get it a little lower yet. (Admittedly, without the hardwood motor mount beams.)
And, I don't see any holes in that firewall for engine bolts/blind nuts. Are you going to use wood screws?
Ah, I think I see...the REAL firewall will go on over that?
And what is the clear plastic visible in the 1st pic of the 2nd posting?
--Ray
Very nice...I'm sanding the front of my fuselage to a round section to match the cowl. Trying to decide if I want an upright engine or inverted, or sidewinder for that matter...guess it's too late for sidewinder, come to think of it, since I already have the beams cut into the fuselage inboard-and-outboard.I'd like to see the motor amount arrangement Ray. One thing I'm curious about is the method you used to get the motor mount beams in there. Can you show a picture?
Boy, the plans don't give you much direction on the length/location of the wing braces, do they?
--Ray
OK Guys! We gave one of our test kits to a 12 year old, he finished it in a little over 3 hours (minus the rotor). Maybe it was because he has built my kits before or maybe he followed directions and just assembled it. ???
I worry when you, Frank, said that you assembled the rotor with the blades straight.......I hope that you tilted them as shown on the plan. :-\
Ok! I will leave you guys alone to your own devices......Good Luck!
Larry
Frank,
In your earlier pictures the rotor appears to be well clear of the rudder. The depth of the hole should not be the determining factor in the height of the rotor shaft. Use the length of the "Rotor Pylon Fairing" and Please let me know how that comes out.
Larry :o
I agree, I'm happy with it. The 3" figure we came up with by adding the fairing length--2 3/8"--to the hole depth--5/8". Seems to take best advantage of everything.Looking good Ray!
Here's some pics of my gear mounting: inside side, outside side, mounted on plane (not yet glued, though).
--Ray
P.S. Larry, don't sweat the rotor dowel. I've got a dowel lying around here I'll cut one from, no problem.
Please pass the sun screen...
.... I'mj burning in the basking.
bob
Ray----that blank check still needs to be signed, so I still have leeway. I would hope that letting Bob bask in my glow would be return enough. VD~
Now the pictures of the balloon are totally excellent!! I get the picture. y1
Just one question here Ray. Need I be concerned as to the relationship of the "floppy tank" in regards to it's being level with the needle valve?
No doubt it makes a difference, but maybe the 1/2As aren't as sensitive to it as the bigger engines...or maybe my skill level is low enough I don't notice such problems. I just set the container on about the same level as the engine and have at it...it seems to work. We're not looking for a 4/2/4 break, you know, just a reasonably consistent flat-out run.
--Ray
Frank
That was my son's. He flew it some then lost interest. He also did a scratch build .15 plane. They were all given away before the great move 5 years ago. Along with all my other stunters, including a Saggita, a stilleto, My highly bashed and wonderful flying Tutor... with the 8 inch longer span and 22 in wide tail and the Big Art os .35's and most regretable of all, my Veco needle nose spinners. Yes, I know. Last summer I spoke with kid I gave them all to who really wanted to get into flying. He was visiting friends here on the Island. He couldn't remember what he did with them before going to college. His mom says they no longer have them but can't remember what they did with them.
Here are pics of the plane, a 21 in Scientific builtup wing P-40 with a Baby Bee 0.49 and I think a Wren 049 but not sure of that one. I emailed a more detailed pic of the motors to you.
bob
Now I gotta think of a finish scheme.
--Ray
Raay----I need a quick reply here..........
Can you tell me about how long a run I can get from half oz. of fuel with the Cox production engine?
Maybe 3 minutes, depending on prop, needle setting, etc. You might stretch it to 4, but certainly no more.
--Ray
Larry has given up and went on vacation. I will see you guys in about a week, I am sure that you will have test flown it by then. LL~
Larry
Build a model straight as is, right out of the box? Where's the fun in that?
Tank looks good, Frank...will it sit higher than the engine? May have a gravity-feed flooding potential if so. At worst, I guess it could just be held nose high during fueling/starting. Where will the fuel line exit, top? side? bottom? Just curious.
As far as I'm concerned, a 3-minute run is just fine for sport flying. With a fast plane, I sometimes find even that a little long! I guess a serious stunter would need a 6- or 7-minute run, huh? Which is why I have a 1.5 + oz. tank in the LIttleAxe.
I'm sure Larry had no idea what he was getting into when he sold us these kits! And about that 12-year-old and the 3-hour construction...with all due respect, I think he's pulling our respective legs.
--Ray
You forgot the yellow polka dots, and the "yellow dog" insignia.Mebe some of that"pink" I used on the QBee..Cool Tank Frank! 3 minutes may screw you right into the ground though!! Naww, it'll be just right...I like this here project, I probably could of made it even more complicated with a Fox 15 on the nose... mw~ LL~
Just for that, I'm makin' it black!
--Ray
Frank
That tank is so small I couldn't see it with magnifying glasses n~
Its about as bad as indoor electric stuff! I'll stick to the bigger stuff I can see.
bob
Mebe some of that"pink" I used on the QBee..Cool Tank Frank! 3 minutes may screw you right into the ground though!! Naww, it'll be just right...I like this here project, I probably could of made it even more complicated with a Fox 15 on the nose... mw~ LL~
Man, Frank, that tank doesn't look much better than that piece of cr*p you pawned off on me. (hehe)
what's the capacity?
--Ray
Whaaaat, no stars?
You sure post little pictures--------are you using a matchbox camera?
Well, you do realize don't you that if you click on the pictures they get bigger? But yes, the camera I'm using is an early Olympus digital "D-220L" that I got from my daughter when the case cracked and she bought a new one. It came with a 2 mb card which I found impossible to replace; the biggest the camera will handle is 8 mb, nearly ias difficult to find but I managed to pick one up. The cracked case is held together with rubber bands, if I had another camera I'd post you a picture! It also eats AA batteries, has no zoom or video, doesn't make me breakfast in the morning or play my favorite tunes. Just takes barely-acceptable digital stills. Someday when my daughter upgrades, I'll get her current one and take a quantum leap in quality. Till then, just squint Frank, or break down and go find your glasses!
--Ray
Yes, no stars. In the beginning I just wanted to do one plane with stars. I wound up with a collection.Frank,
Frank,
I really like that "Victory". Thats a stunning color scheme! More info please...
Ok Frank. You put it out there, and now curious minds want to know: Where'd you put the one extra star that made it 171? Something ain't symmetrical someplace.
n~bob
You know me Frank, I don't do stars.
bob
Hey, Frank!
Doh!! The pilot, of course, the pilot. I guess I'm going to have to cut a floor and glue it in there. It wouldn't do not to have a pilot now, would it? Somebodys got to drive!! y1
Thanks Ray-----The rotor is going to spin and create lift I promise. I took the model outdoors yesterday to show it the sky and warn it about the ground. As I was walking with it the rotor turned.
Doh!! The pilot, of course, the pilot. I guess I'm going to have to cut a floor and glue it in there. It wouldn't do not to have a pilot now, would it? Somebodys got to drive!! y1
The wheel fairing is made up of three pieces. There is a leading edge piece that sandwiches between the two fairing sides along with the lg wire. This makes it easier to bend the fairings when gluing the trailing edge.
Hey, Frank!
Hows about taking a packing peanut and painting it fleshtone(or peanut color) and doing a Mr Peanut pilot??!!
That might be pretty cool, and lightweight too! Or just use a real peanut. Might have to fuelproof him though!!
DK^
That's an excellent idea Richard!!I like the little stuff too. Good to check on you guys to see if I can learn something new too! This Project looks like fun!! Looked like a peanut man would fit right into that hole. And, if you get mad, you can just crack his scull and eat his"peanut brain" hehehe.....that would blow some newcomer's mind!! Just kiddin..These birds look like a hoot to build and will be to fly also. Pappy DeBolt would be proud of both of you guys!
I'm glad to know you've peeked in on this thread. I've been thinking for a while that Ray and I were the only ones here. y1
Yes, Richard the little stuff is what makes the magic. This little plane has been a ton of fun to build and I've had a blast building along with Ray on it. The Queen Bee build was a load of fun too. I'd like to do another half A build on line with you guys again. Any ideas?
I'll keep an eye out for another 1/2A build. I agree it's been (and continues to be) a hoot.
Your windscreen is just plumb cute, as they say in OK. I thought of trying to paint a frame on the edge of mine to make it stand out a little more; I may try it yet, maybe with fingernail polish or something. But your wood frame takes the prize on that little detail.
I got my LO guide fabbed and on, and the old eyelets removed and holes plugged. Glad I did it, it looks better and will certainly function better. I'll get pics on this evening. Also working on the LG fairing; yes, I get the whole concept now, about gluing the LE together around the wire before pulling the TE together, etc. Thank you muches, Frank.
--Ray
You know this online building is a real blast. I can't remember having so much fun building. There are two models that I've had a hankering to build--Fierce Arrow & SE-5. I could get into either of those for a 1/2 A build. It would be nice to complicate the dickens out of them. Full body, built up wing> Mybe a Norvel .061 for power. I'm dreaming here. The SE-5 could be allout scale............................oh well.
Yup the windscreen is aa humdinger. The surprising thing was that it wasn't hard to do at all....once I got started it was just fun, no hassle at all.
I'm looking forward to seeing your pictures tonite. I'll bet if you paint the outline on your wind screen it will be very cool. I think nail polish is fuel proof.
Here is a little thing that I do;
I round off the top of the rotor shaft and burnish it a little, I think that it might cause less friction, probably not but.....
This is not that important because the test models were just left as is with nor problem at all.
Ray,
will I see an Autogiro in your line up too?
Larry
Awesome Ray.........the extra holes will give you leeway. Good idea. And the height looks good. I do hope you'll give us a peek at the gear fairings.
About the Fierce Arrow........I have a Bratco Hexdrone over here. It's powered by a Norvel .061. I flew it once on 35 foot lines but they were way to short. It looked like 52 ft. lines would be better. The plane flew stable as all get out. I think if we used it for a starting point......................and build a 1/2 A fierce arrow. The whole thing is there all we'd need to do is generate the airfoil, engineer the airframe add a fuselage and vertical fin and we'd have it.
I'm game if you are...Deltas I can handle. Hafta pick up some original Fierce Arrow plans, or at least some pictures, and see what it would take to get down to our size. The Fierce Arrow is a .35-.40 size plane isn't it? Or am I completely confused?So.......let's build a 1/2A Fierce Arrow.!!
--Ray
My vacation had it's good and bad sides. I got away for 3 days, I had fun, and it did not cost much.....all pluses. I did have a bad reaction to my medication, my doctor has not returned my call, and I am swamped in new orders.....well so-so.
My girl friend of 30 years was very understanding so all is well (yes I know I have comittment problems).
Next month at the partners meeting I am going to prepose a "Special Craftsman Model Kit" line. It will have different models than our other lines have but you will need to do a lot more work to build them. You will need to carve the canopy, airfoil the wings and use patterns to make some parts like the stabilizer, rudder, fin, and elevators. The plans will have full size patterns and detailed instructions with a lot of drawings on how to do things. The kits will be aimed at those who enjoy building and want to do more than what we allow them to do in our kits now. What do you think? The two kits in this line so far would be the "Bullet" and "Cyclon" both Scientific kits. I am also asking to go ahead with some non flying desplay scale model kits in our Junior Ace line.
Too bad about the meds-vacation is the worste time to not feel well. I'm very happy thaat you are "swamped" with orders, that's what keeps BHM going.
A "Craftsman's Series" sounds like a good idea. I am not familiar with either of the planes proposed for the series. Is it possible to get a sneek peek?
Larry
So.......let's build a 1/2A Fierce Arrow.!!
How does this sound for starters?
Power Norvel .061
Use the Bratco Hexdrone for a starting point.
I
Sound good Frank!
I have a Hexdrone also thats not been fueled yet. Has a BW 049 Cox on it and just looks like a badass critter.I think the Norvell .061 is a tad too much for the size. looks like a do-able scratch repo into something a little different. seems like a good airfoil.
So.......let's build a 1/2A Fierce Arrow.!!
How does this sound for starters?
Power Norvel .061
Use the Bratco Hexdrone for a starting point.
I have a set of plans for the Fierce Arrow (2 actually) so I will send you one of them.
If this is good for you, then I will clear the table tomorrow and measure out the Hexdrone and develop construction drawings for me to use. Then at the beginning of the week I will box up the Hexdrone and a set of Fierce Arrow plans and ship them to you. Then you can measure it out and start your construction drawings. At that point we start a new thread and start comparing design ideas. We develop a cool model. Oh..and have a load of fun.
here is a picture of the Hexdrone and I can e-mail you pictures of the Fierce Arrow.
Sounds like a great plan to me. That approach might take a lot of coordination through this forum, but that's where the fun is, isn't it? Bring it on!
Richard, the Norvel .061 is a powerhouse, all right. We'll just have to scale the little Fierce Arrow accordingly...flying blind here, but the Hexdrone dimensions do appear a little small for it. You might recall my LittleAxe full-bodied stunter is 36" span, and as long as it's built light the .061 is plenty of power for it. I agree with Frank, it's a good choice of engine to design around. Except we need to lose that Norvel tank mount and go with beams. Tank's 'way too small for the thirsty .061. Or I guess we could use an adapter mount, seems like one is available. Hmmmm, getting a little ahead of myself.
Boy, we all seem to be up a little late tonight, don't we?
--Ray
I just squirted a coat of primer on mine a little while ago. Tryin' to get it, and 2 other prjects, done and out of the way before we start on the --whatever it's to be called --1/2A Fierce Arrow. Gotta come up with a name, Frank...
--Ray
Wow! It looks great, Frank.
Anybody knows that they have the plane fly low and slow while the painter rides in the back seat of a convertable and paints. I am still trying to figure out how a fly lands on a ceiling and how he takes off again.....free fall?
Larry DK^
Very nice...mine's still sitting out in the garage with a coat of primer on it. I'm still trying to figure out a color scheme. Now I bought a new digital camera and trying to figure out what all it will do. Frantically Monocoating another model preparatory to painting. Had another little project lined up hoping to get it whipped out before starting the Fierce Arrow tinkering...whose byline says "Too many planes, not enough time"?
--Ray
Frank, what did you prime and paint yours with?
Also, have you looked at Barry Baxter's site? I *think* he has plans for a 1/2A Fierce Arrow already. Might give you some ideas.
I have a Fierce Arrow 400 which is a surprisingly good flying plane with a McCoy RH 19.
Bill <><
Very good. Slick little pushrod guide--washer soldered into a screw slot. Congrats on being done! I'm telling you, switch those wheels and you'll be under 6 oz.!
I've about got mine sanded down, ready for color. I did finish the monocoat job on the other, it's ready for primer. Then a little 2-3 day project and I'm good to go on our new collaboration. Re: Barry Baxter plans--looks like we may be trying to re-invent the wheel? You want to re-think our subject? That Humbug's still sitting there.
--Ray
I just found it: www.controllineplans.com
He calls it a "1/2Arrow", kinda clever when you think about it. 30" span, 254 sq. in. Listed under his "1/2A or so" page.
If you look in his "Sorts" (sports?) category, "designers" page, you can find both the 1/2Arrow ("Barry Baxter designs") and the original Fierce Arrow 400 ("Bill Netzeband designs") for comparison. Frankly, Frank (hehe) I think he missed it...made a really cool looking ship look rather ordinary. We might could do better.
--Ray
Frank;
It would still be legal at our Musciano event. The only thing is what event would you enter it in? It may not be aerobatic, and I do not think it would be fast, but it would be a blast to see.
Leroy
Thanks Ray. I just went and looked. He did miss it by quite a bit. I added the link to my favorites for future reseach (theft).
I do think we could do better. I have some ideas. Do you think we should get a thread started so as not to hijack this one?
And speaking of the gyro---------I'm waiting on some epoxy to cure and am trying a new experiment. See picture. VD~
I just found it: www.controllineplans.com
He calls it a "1/2Arrow", kinda clever when you think about it. 30" span, 254 sq. in. Listed under his "1/2A or so" page.
If you look in his "Sorts" (sports?) category, "designers" page, you can find both the 1/2Arrow ("Barry Baxter designs") and the original Fierce Arrow 400 ("Bill Netzeband designs") for comparison. Frankly, Frank (hehe) I think he missed it...made a really cool looking ship look rather ordinary. We might could do better.
--Ray
Whatcha doin'--carving a face into Larry's little pilot doll? Cute...
I just put the base color on mine; probably 1 more coat of it, then masking for the trim. Then I'll post pics.
Yup, I think a new project deserves a new thread--meanwhile, check it out: We're on page #5! A new record!
--Ray
DON"T SHIP THE BOX!!!! I allready got it I just have been too busy building cabinet for the downstairs bath.
Don't have a scale big enought to weight it n~
Frank;
Go to the hobby shop and pick up some RC56 or formula 56 (what ever they are calling it these days) It is also know as canopy glue it goes on white thin and runny, but dries crystal clear in about 24 hrs. I have never had a canopy come off whether it is glued to wood, dope, or $kote.
Leroy
Well, I finished my Autogyro, really just about finished it off...tried to get "too cute" on finish and made a mess of it, very disappointing, I don't like it at all, bad color scheme, worse execution...kinda ashamed to post any pics of it (yes, I will, give me time to mourn awhile first). I feel like repainting it all black like I threatened to do before, but it'd be so heavy then it probably wouldn't get off the ground. Maybe it would taxi fast enough to get the rotor spinning, that's really all I wanted to see anyhow...
--Ray
Very, very nice Frank ! I didnt realize you were going scale with it! You out did yourself this time!! %^@
Very nice Frank! I am going to use one of your pictures on the box end flap. You the man! HH%%
Larry
You are shameless...
what kind of paint is on it?
Every time I look at it, I think of a giant clown shoe. I guess it's the colors, first of all...then the bleeding under the tape, ad the trim color edges getting raggy from pulling the tape off...don't make me go on.It looks just fine Ray! I think you were just beating yourself up a little like we all do when expecting more.
All of that for sure............the scheme saves it. the lettuce edge could go away. that's what mine looked like when I first took the tape off. they always bleed for everybody. that's why they invented the touch up gun.
what kind of paint is on it?
HI Frank,
I must say that I am absolutely impressed with your model! It looks like it should be MUCH bigger! The finish is great, and it really looks neat. ;D
Bill <><
There's an idea Frank! A ST .60 gyrocopter!
bob
(if I keep this up the rest of the world is going to know how much aggivation I cause you!)
Ray-----------why is there no pilot in your model? n1 Who is going to drive it? ???
Yeah, I was afraid you'd spot that, after the grief I gave you about a pilot being necessary...truth is, I got my heart set on a styrofoam peanut pilot and now I can't find one! But I will, I will...
To all you guys: Thanks for the encouragement and good words about the finish on my autogyro. In retrospect, I shoulda just posted the pictures without all my whining, and let the chips (and remarks) fall where they may. But I had envisioned it so much better...
Also thanks for the various tips on dealing with the raggy trim edges. I have known of the credit-card-smoothing technique (although I will check out the nylon razor blade thingys), but really had never thought of outlining the trim with permanent marker to cover up those edges. That might be just the thing it needs. I don't suppose permanent pen markers are fuelproof, but a light shot of clear would take care of that. I may not be through with it yet! Also the plastic eraser approach--I have a plane or two with a little overspray I can try that out on. Always learning from this forum!!
By the way, concerning the positive angle of the rotor: That is per Mr. Musciano's plan & design. I know nothing about the aerodynamic theory behind it. I can't quite picture how a freewheeling rotor at a negative AOA could produce positive lift (seems like it would be a perpetual-motion machine) but then there are many such things that escape me. I suspect on this particular model the rotor is more for visual effect than anything else; the design has enough stationary wing to fly on.
And lastly, I agree: Frank's model is a knockout! Even if he is using it to brownnose Larry...
--Ray
--Ray
Deflection, Frank, deflection...just like a flat-plate wing. Picture a disc the diameter of your rotor; that's MOL what we have I think. That's why it must sit at a positive AOA--or else the plane would have to fly tail-down to achieve the deflection it needs. Well, I think so anyway...
I second Bob Branch--we shouldn't analyze 'em so much; we should just go fly 'em. Who'll be the first to nurse one through a loop?
--Ray
Since I have yet to find anything substantial in writing I have taken to looking as closely as I can to the pics of full size and model gyros including a gyro kite that seems to be everywhere. The AOA seems to be rather flat and thus hard to tell whether a pos. or neg. pitch. This in itself may be an important clue. If indeed th AOA should be positive, it may actually need only to be slight.
I cannot seem to stop my search yet and even while writing this, look what I found:
http://www.autogyro-rc.com/
This my friends has a link to a video of a Kellet doing some great flying and a decent explination of how auto-giros (that is how they spelled it) fly. Using models and a real aircraft!
In this video you should see what I have been running into as far as the AOA on the rotorblades. It looks like it has none at all. Very flat. It looked to me like a semisymetrical foil but upside down? I could swear it had more camber on bottom than top! Judge for yourselves!
Clic on "How They Fly" just under the first image.
Robert
Thanks...still waiting on more pics of your Snapper!
OK fellas, I took the advice of...someone...can't remember, too lazy to go back through the posts to find it; to use a sharpie permanent marker to cover the raggy ("lettuce"?)edges of the trim on my plane. Below are the results. I think it looks better than it did, although still not great...I wasn't as painstaking as I could have been, just sort of experimenting around.. but, seems to me it works as advertised, cleaned up those sloppy edges pretty well.I thought it would help...your welcome,Ray! :-X
Now I'm setting the little booger aside 'til Spring, in anticipation of--the Next Project. Thanks to all for the help and suggestions.
--Ray
OK fellas, I took the advice of...someone...can't remember, too lazy to go back through the posts to find it; to use a sharpie permanent marker to cover the raggy ("lettuce"?)edges of the trim on my plane. Below are the results. I think it looks better than it did, although still not great...I wasn't as painstaking as I could have been, just sort of experimenting around.. but, seems to me it works as advertised, cleaned up those sloppy edges pretty well.
Now I'm setting the little booger aside 'til Spring, in anticipation of--the Next Project. Thanks to all for the help and suggestions.
--Ray
Well Well Well---------that Sharpie sure made this little ship a sharpie!! (PE**) DV^^ CLP** BW@ HH%%
You have got to be feeling much better about your plane now Ray. It's a completely different bird. I like it!!
http://www.gyropilot.co.uk/
This will give you the video above and several others. All with positive angle of attack.
Bob
Thanks Frank.
Well friends and neighbors, positive incedence seems to be more and more the order of the day, yet I have not seen it in writing yet... The flapping hinge seems to be more and more important.
Robert