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Author Topic: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators  (Read 1324 times)

Offline Jim Howell

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1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« on: August 11, 2010, 07:15:22 PM »
Okay, here's a couple of questions about my current re-doo's of some of the older 1/2A profiles.

1)  I've acquired a Brodak Stuntman 23 - my fondly remembered Goldberg Sportsman 18 and Jet 21 not being available - and a Sig Deweybird.  Both of these kits, and others I remember from a distant past, use two halves for the elevator that have to be joined and reinforced.  I'm inclined to dismiss this as some kind of "save wood" die-cutting issue.  I am also inclined to substitute a "do-it-myself" one piece elevator to go along with the one-piece stab.  I'd still put that piece of reinforcement anyway, it would stiffen up the elevator, but I'd get rid of that glue butt-joint between the two halves of the elevator.  Can anyone clue me in to the why's and wherefor's of this 2-piece approach and am I missing something about the structural consequences of the kit approach?

2)  I've read on a couple of posts that some of you guys REALLY prefer the sewn figure-8 hinge to the criss-cross cloth hinge for 1/2A sized models.  Are you at all concerned about not having a tight hinge line to prevent air leakage?  I'm being given guidance that on my larger models I should consider making the criss-cross hinges run the entire distance between the fixed surface and the movable surface.  Since that's consistent with my full-scale gliders, that seems like a good approach; but, at the same time, I understand the desire to have really floppy, no-resistance movable surfaces.  Any guidance here about the distinctions between 1/2A and larger models?

TIA,
Jim Howell
Huntsville, AL

Later edit:  I have just discovered that Brodak has laser-cut a 1-piece elevator, contrary to the duplicated Goldberg "instruction sheet".  I'll still put that reinforcement strip, tho'.  And I suspect that they may have up-sized the thickness from a 1/16" sheet to a 3/32" sheet for the stab/elevator.  Never having built the S-23 years ago, I don't know/remember this issue.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2010, 07:46:26 PM by Jim Howell »
Jim Howell
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2010, 07:33:49 PM »
You made me dig my Deweybird kit out of the "gotta get this done someday" pile.  Yes, there are two elevator halves, but there's also a 1/16" ply joiner -- most of the strength of that joint is going to come from the plywood.  The plywood also gives some essential reinforcement to the elevator, as you'd see if you looked at the last two "whip them up from scrap" planes that I built, that have horribly broken-out 1/16" balsa sitting under ply reinforcement plates that were put on later.

I think by the time you put that plywood in there it's immaterial whether or not the elevator is one piece or in halves.

As for hinges -- the figure-8 is certainly floppy, and it's easy to do.  The cloth hinges work on the same principle, but getting them really really floppy is going to be an issue.  I'd be tempted to borrow a page from the small RC guys and try some hinge tape.  If it's free-working enough it'll be easy, and will certainly fill the gap.
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2010, 08:39:46 PM »
Not sure how important the sealed hingeline is to 1/2As, with slower speed and lighter loadings, but the figure-8 sewn hinges can be made about as tight as you want, and still be very free-moving...that's why they're so popular.

The elevator in the pic is incomplete; more hinges were later installed.  Just included this to show how tight a sewn hingeline can be.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2010, 10:00:33 PM »
I believe it is critical to have the control surfaces as free as possible on a 1/2A model.  It is MUCH more important than with the larger planes.  You are really flying with little to no line tension (well not actually *NO* tension) if a 1/2A is trimmed properly, so having controls that will move with the least force is necessary.  This is more important, IMHO, than having sealed hinge lines for most of the flying we do with 1/2As..   

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Offline Jim Howell

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2010, 01:15:17 PM »
I believe it is critical to have the control surfaces as free as possible on a 1/2A model.  It is MUCH more important than with the larger planes.....

Tim, Ray, Bill,

Thanks for your replies.  I was missing the "low line tension" characteristic for the 1/2A's as the difference between them and the bigger guys.  Floppy elevator is the goal!  That's actually not a problem for me.  My previous practice back in my dark ages on ALL my C/L models and my towline glider rudders was to use the sewn figure-8 hinge.

Thanks,
Jim Howell
Jim Howell
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Offline Jim Howell

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2010, 01:21:07 PM »
...
As for hinges -- the figure-8 is certainly floppy, and it's easy to do.  The cloth hinges work on the same principle, but getting them really really floppy is going to be an issue.  I'd be tempted to borrow a page from the small RC guys and try some hinge tape.  If it's free-working enough it'll be easy, and will certainly fill the gap.

Tim,

I've used Blenderm tape on sailplane spoilers and small park flyer electrics.  I like it a lot on small electrics and gliders, but I'd use a scrap test case to check possible compatibility issues with nitro fuel.  On occasion, I've had to replace my tapes.  I haven't bothered to try to figure out what's going on.  Don't know if it is temps, body oils from handling or what.  It is so easy to replace that I haven't thought twice about it.

Later,
Jim
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2010, 02:24:24 PM »
With figure 8 higes, I make an appropriate small notch in the elevator so the hinge line can be tight.  I use dental floss for the hinge material. 

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2010, 03:44:43 PM »
For the hollow logs, Goldbergs and other 1/2A's I do it this way:

Make the entire tailplane: stab and flippers, out of a single piece of wood.  Sand in the "airfoil, then cut the hinge line and notch for the rudder.  Round off the square edges,  Add a bit of 1/64" ply to beef up the notch in the flippers.

I find it a lot easier to work with only one piece of wood as long as possible.  

I go with linen hinges, doped in place.

Don't worry about hinge gap. That's for the WINGS of BIG stunters, not 1/2A tails.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2010, 10:01:52 AM by Paul Smith »
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Offline George

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2010, 08:59:58 AM »
If you still want to seal the gap you can use a method Walt sometimes used on his logs. Simply run a cloth (I use nylon) hinge along the bottom of the "empennage". Be sure to taper the LE of the elevator (I sand a wedge), and be careul of how much paint gets in the gap so it stays flexible.

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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2010, 10:05:56 AM »
I've never been a fan of the one-sided hinge.  To me, it's trouble in the long run.

You could seal the gap by using zig-zag linen hinges butted together, too.

My point in the hinge gap is, on a big stunter, you want all the WING lift you can get, so seal the gap.  But for the tailplane, all you need is enough to raise and lower the nose.  For a lot of flyers, maybe a bit less control force is a benefit.
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2010, 02:00:48 PM »
Look at John's Snapper at the end of the "fuel consumption" thread for a good example of "zig-zag linen hinges butted together". A perfectly sealed hingeline, for those who care.
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Offline Victor Jeffreys

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2010, 08:41:05 PM »
Many kits are engineered to fit inside of a certain size standard box and to be cut from a certain length/width  sheet stock w/o wasting a single sq. inch of balsa. That's why a Goldberg Stuntman 23 has a 6 piece wing plank when 1, 2 or 3 would actually be better, and a 4 piece hor. stab. when 2 or 3 would do.

Offline nathan Metzner

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 08:32:40 AM »
I use cloth zigzags on my 1/2 A's I use eight pieces of cloth and have no trouble with free movement. One of my first 1/2A planes used those plastic hinges and wow that thing can be a handfull. My dad built his stuntman by the book and I wish I could give you a report but he hasn't flown it yet arghhhh.
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2A horizontal stabs and elevators
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 01:12:38 PM »
    For those that have used Sig Koverall, it makes for excellent free moving hinge material. I cut little pieces and adhere them with Testors fast dry. I also found that due to hard landings, the 1/2 a planes are constantly abused. I started using basswood for the stab material which can be planes very thin at the edges without fear of it breaking. I find it to take paint better and when I stitch those figure eight hinges I feel it makes for a much stronger connection then balsa. Ken


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