Thanks Ray------it is a battle fitting the cowl isn't it? When I build "our" Arrow I'm going to make up the fuselage and cowl sides all in one piece, you can count on that.

Yes the tank fits in there very nicely. I took the hooks out and plan to replace them with finer wire, also I'm going to bend them over the top of the tank to avoid jamming them on the cowl. I'll include a drawing here of what I have in mind. The pinch created by the wire is what will secure the tank.

I did indeed adjust the joint in the cowl line to match the NVA location. I feel pretty clever about that one. Yessiree.

I'm going to exit the fill tube through the inboard exhaust vent and I plan to open up the whole nose for air intake once I have it in it's final shape.

I'm looking forward to seeing your cowling Ray. I wonder if you used a block or if you built it up.

Roger should have a fairly easy go of this now that you and have I waded through all the tuff stuff. I hope he does anyway. But being a scratch builder he'll probably do things we'll wish we'd have thought of. It's going to be interesting.

The unit weighs 3 oz.

I have high hopes of plans arriving today, soooo-
I'm going out now to shovel snow, oops, , mow the lawn. Sorry guys!      Roger

 

No plans. No mail.
Presidents Day, Gov't holiday.
Roger 

Bummer dude!! Maybe tomorrow. But don't worry. You'll get it all tomorrow. And then you can catch up with me and Ray. And in a couple months we'll all be at the circle with exotic little airplanes.

My cowl is a one-piece block; looks like I may have to add a 1/16" or so thick sheet to the center top to fit the fuselage curve. 

so your tank holddown is just spring-loaded arms...very clever, I'm impressed.  And may steal the idea.  I found my oval plastic tank, and it's about 1/4" too long to fit in the space--so I may be the first one to go through former #2! My round cannisters just barely squeeze in, the cowl sides would have to be a thin 1/16" thick at the joint; I don't think so.  But the oval tank holds MAYBE 1 3/4oz., maybe no quite (I need to measure it accurately I guess), so I don't want to shorten it any...only other choice is to make a hole in the former.  I think it would be sufficient to just sort of "notch" it so the lower back corner of the tank protrudes through, only need 1/4" as I say. 

We are off work today, so I've been kept busy with "honeydoo" things...working, between wifey projects, on hollowing out the cowl. 

I just weighed the nose unit with all blocks, tank, alum. gear and wheels...2 1/2 oz.  I'm pretty happy with that, as I have considerably more hollowing out to do; but also need to add some sort of structure for attachment (tank and cowl both) so it probably will end up about the same weight.    You're not talking about weight with engine, are you?  In that case I'm more like 4 1/2 oz.  Please tell me your 3 oz. does NOT include the engine...

I'm certain Roger will add his own touch building his model; I'm looking forward to seeing more things I could have done better!

--Ray

That block had to be hard to fit Ray. Make sure you keep the cowl a sixteenth lager than the #2 former so it will match the 1/16 sides.

No springs. That brass tube is a guide to help the screw find it's way to the blind nut. It also acts as a pinch point against the 1/16 ply plate that the screw head snugs up against. When the screw gets tightened down  the ply plate snugs right up against the tube giving it a positive lock. You see this a lot on power tools which occasionally I take apart to fix.
I'm glad you like it.

When do I get to see yours?

Wow. ...that'll be something going through #2 former. I bet you wish you would have known you needed to do it before it got glued to everything else.

The weight with engine, tank, blocks and all is 3 1/4 oz. Of course I still have to add the landing gear. Since mine will be the same as yours I'd like to know how much your LG weighs. I'm pretty sure that once I add those I'll be at 4 1/2 ounces or so also.

So -- how much does your LG weigh?

Have I gone too far?

Frank,
Arghhh, I need plans.
    Looked at your nose/cowl photos, dont have dimensions, and thought -
You might want to consider adding a small air scoop/chin scoop "under" the engine to provide cooling air to the crankcase, which can also flow upward and out the "vent".
Roger

That's a good idea. I'm going to open the inlet quite a bit more too.
Man, I hope you get those plans tomorrow.

Thanks for the compliment Ray.

I thought the louvers came out pretty cool. Cut them out of 1/32 ply. At first it looked like too much work but it was a breeze. Only 11 little pieces.  I always wanted to do something like that but was afraid. These 1/2As make it easy to try stuff. I don't envy you getting those 35mm cans in the cowl. They're big man. Talk about shoehorning.
I accidentally sanded away my 1/16 reveal at the top of the cowl. I'm going to sand away some of former #2 to get it back. Do you think that'll work out o.k?

I'm still waiting to hear from Jan about the spinner. It must be a real pain in the butt, because he usually makes things pretty fast. I made up a 1 1/8 spinner disc from a paint stick that I'm going to use on the "our" Arrow I build. I think it'll do fine till we get the spinners.

Home Depot has 1/4" paint sticks in the paint department (free). They are for stirring 5 gal. buckets of paint.

I was hoping you'd think it wouldn't matter much if I were to get my 1/16 reveal back by taking it from former #2. I thought so but I wanted to run it by you first.

These really are going to be cool planes. Apparently the construction method was employed in many of the flying wings of that era. I never would have thought of it myself. The fuselage as we have been calling it is actually an engine pod with a wing built around it.

Ray, I'm figuring on cutting ribs pretty soon for the stock Arrow. Do you think the spar notch locations in the plan are accurate?

I'm hoping that the notches in the ribs give proper spar alighnment.

I'm learning things too. Never tried louvers before. Turns out they're too easy to have put it off so long.

Sounds like a scary prospect slinging the cowl across the room. It's always the hardest part to replace that things like that happen too. I'm glad you could save it.

I'll call Jan in the morning and see how it's going. He might have it ready and is waiting for me to call.

Are you looping your fuel line outside your model the way it looks in the magazine pictures?? Thanks for the heads up on the NVA assembly. I might go with one of the older Norvel NVA set ups where it doesn't slant back.

Having enough of the engine head revealed to get a quick-clip on it is the way to go.

So....now I'd like to see a picture of what you have so far. And do you have an idea about how you're going to secure the tank and cowl?

That's a bummer about the plans Roger. Hang in there. If you don't have them in a couple days. I'll airmail another set.

I like flapevator---cool word.

Maybe we could reduce the spacing between the ribe to 3". I really think it isn't a good idea to risk structural integrity for a small weight loss.

I'm going to start cutting ribs for my stock Arrow tomorrow. So I'll soon be getting a wing on this one. I decided to go without the 1 1/8 spinner on this one. And I really opened up the air inlet. I'm not sure I like what I've done to it, but that's where it stays. I have enough of the head revealed to get one of those old timey battery clips on it.

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the compliment Bill. Overbuilding is pandemic in our CL community. I get guilty of over building by adding louvers and ply windscreens decorating the model with stuff not necessary for it to function. Crash proof a plane?? I see guys put a load of epoxy on wing joints and bellcranks etc. but they always justify it by saying "I'll end up crashing it anyway". Not me!! I don't crash. Well..........at least it's not an integral part of my program.

I think the Snapper is a great example of not overbuilding a small plane. And speaking of Snappers I'm guessing by the time you're done with yours it'll be within a quarter oz, of what mine and Ray's came out. Our Snppers RTF were around 6 1/2 0z.

Hello, all, I got several pics for you now:

First, bottom block and gear.  Looks good I think. 

Next several, the cowl--alone and on.

Last few, the tank and installation.  I had to once again back up and re-do; this time a new tank--after all my carving, just couldn't get my oval tank under the cowl.  So I went to a smaller dia. round plastic (the protective container for a syringe). No plumbing yet as you can see; I'll use only 2 lines--fill it through the uniflow; overflow it through the feed line (disconnected from engine of course).  I'll run them out each side at the cowl joint. I'll "goop" the cap on after ithe tubing is in.

Also note the hole in former #2--I needed it after all even with the new tank.  Capacity will be around 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 oz., probably on the low side after I get the plumbing in.

What else?  Whole shebang as it stands weighs right at 4 oz. so I'm feeling a little better about that.  Ya can't hardly see my Dremel accident, can you? 

I will anchor the cowl kinda like yours, Frank--I have enough rooom in front of the tank.  Still figuring what I'll do about air exit holes, and for that matter the exact style of the front entrance. 

I'm working on rib layouts which has slowed me down some; of course the "re-do"s and repairs aren't helping either...

Bill, using the outer end of the flap as a trim tab occurred to me too.  Handy if a guy needs it.

I'm drawing another plan of the wing using 3" rib spacing as suggested, no half-ribs...it will be some simpler, no heavier since it eliminates the half-ribs.  Bill, I definitely intend to use the diagonal spar (s) to help stiffen the wing.  I'll post another picture of the wing as soon as I get it drawn.

--Ray

Good for you, Roger...Here's my layout for 3" rib spacing, no half-ribs, on a wing stretched to 34" span.

                                              :XURGENT NOTICE FOR RAY

Ray, Before you read any further in this post, you should have a box of Kleenex within easy reach because I have some news about our project that will surely make you cry. I'm serious man!!

Before I get to the bad news I'd like to say Hi Roger!!  Well I'm glad you finally got your plans. And it was a pleasure talking with you on the phone. I'm looking forward to seeing you at Brodak.

Did you get that Kleenex Ray? You're going to need it!!

First before I make you cry Ray----I finally got around to cutting out my landing gear and I mounted them on the pod right where we said we would.  Crying time is getting close Ray. I hope you have that Kleenex nearby.

Well sir, what with having the pod built all the way and with the gear mounted, I cut out a pair of #1 ribs. I tried the ribs for a fit on the pod ( get a Kleenex Ray cause here it comes) Guess what? The gear is in the way!!   And worse yet--you've glued yours in along with the bottom block. You're screwed man. But we can save it. So go ahead and blow your nose and dry your tears. I'll wait right here.

Here's a good cure Ray. Cut the bottom block just in front of the gear and cut out just the section that is covering the gear. Get the gear out. You'll need to add about a quarter inch of material onto the rails to get the gear up higher (away from the MM rails in this case) I think I'll use a 1/8 piece of balsa and put a piece of 1/8 ply on top of that. Then I'll screw the gear back on and trim the bottom block to fit.

I know it was my idea to put the gear on the rails. I was wrong. Sorry.

Here are pictures. # 3 shows the gear not fitting with R-!.

Ray,
Dont steal everything from Frank, leave some for me.
Had some time available to look over the plans, much nicer than the 5"x7" plan I downloaded and was working with.
Comment - the suggested tip weight ~ location is, I believe, too far aft. I normally place tip weight on a span line that goes through/near the cg. On the "stock plan" 1/2A FA, this cg span line is fwd of the LE (in free space) at the outboard rib and means the tip weight could only be located as far fwd as the LE.
Your redrawn, larger, wing would (I believe) place the cg span line just aft of the LE and within the wing structure at the outboard rib.
Special Tip Wt. box design/installation approach is on my "to do list".
Roger 

Yup, Roger, plans call for 1/4 oz., not much.  Would be good to have a box we could adjust that with.  As far forward as you could make it, inside the LE sheeting.  I think a cute little hatch could be done.

I can't believe nobody has any comments on all my pics above.  Too embarrassed to say anything about my shoddy workmanship, or what? C'mon, I can take it...I thought the hole through former #2 was rather well done; ditto bottom block.  Clever tank.  Nice looking gear.  You can think of something!

--Ray

Ray, I forgot to comment on your pix because I was concentrating on giving you the bad news about the gear location

For starters ( you said you could take it) I thought the purpose of going to the aluminum gear was so that we could attach them "after" we'd gotten the plane built, rather than having them jutting in the way through the whole construction. Yours are glued in already! What's up with that? It looks good though. Nice fit on everything.
The fuel tank and your solution to get it to fit by going through former two is very creative. Man, talk about thinking outside the box.
I can see where you changed the hatch line to accommodate the NVA and that too is really well thought out and something I'll be stealing from you.
The disc on the nose looks like it worked out well in place of having the actual spinner. BTW I may have a spinner for show and tell this evening. Jan is willing to make a couple more for you guys if you find his price and the product acceptable. He said he is leaning more toward a needle nose because it would be lighter.

Roger, good thinking on the tip weight. Have you cut any wood yet?

NEW BUSINESS.......I got done setting the new position for the gear. I determined that the gear needed to be a quarter inch up more (having a root rib on hand made that clear enough) to get the 1/4 inch I sandwiched a piece of 1/8 balsa and a piece of 1/8 ply. Then I cut it to fit the fuselage width X the LG width, drilled a hole in the middle of it for good measure and glued it to the pod in it's proper location. Then I cut a chunk off the back of the bottom block and matched the bottom block to the gear plate. Then I got a little piece of balsa and shaped it to cover the gear once it was installed at the end of the build.
PICTURE ARE INCLUDED HERE. 

One rule I'm going to live by for the rest of this build is --- never glue part A to part B without first making sure that part C is going to fit.

I have a plumbing job scheduled for today so I'll be offline till this afternoon. Duty calls and all that.

I spose I could send you a CAD drawing of it if you have the means to access that.  I understand quick-print places will print out from a CAD CD--also UPS stores I'm told (!). But I also hear it's kinda pricey, never used 'em myself so I don't know.  Or I could dimension the heck out of it and send you a picture!  Or, worst-case scenario, I could draw the thing twice more and send you guys copies.  I'm nothing if not accomodating.

About that gear, Frank, somehow I missed that rationale of not attaching the gear until after the plane is built.  Makes perfect sense, I'll hafta hang the gear off the table edge for everything I want to do on a flat surface...I like your fix, it'll look good...I've backed up enough times on this project already--I think I can cut around the gear as is and make it work.  We shall see!

--Ray

--Ray

I'm about ready to cut some ribs; I'll wait on the gear operation until I can see for myself how big a problem it'll be.  Remember I'm another one of those old & stubborn guys...I want to do it the way I want, because it's the way I want to do it.

HOWEVER, I may end up eating those words...I'll reserve final call until first-hand experience.

Prints at Kinko's would be the ticket.  As far as the ribs go, after I get them all laid out in CAD, I can print as many copies as we want...only R1 would require overlapping two 8 1/2x11 sheets.

I'm sorta mulling over some alternate TE treatments...the ribs get awfully thin back there, what with that reflex curve; it does need some strength 'cause it holds the ele--what'd we decide to call it? not elevon; flapilator--no; flapevator, that's it!--TE holds the flapevator on.  There's 3 different approaches I can think of right offhand: Solid TE per plans; 2-piece top & bottom sheeting per Frank's sketch; one-piece interior "ribbon" per the LE on plans, with Frank's 1/8" sq. piece behind that. I'm thinking of leaving the ribs 1/8" thick at the TE and running the capstrips over the 1/8" square piece to the back edge.  That would add a little security back there. 

Hmmmm, very unclear--I may have to do a few sketches.  Tell me if it's worthwhile.

--Ray

Some small progress: Got my tank plumbed and vent outlets cut into the fuse; cowl just about to final shape--my assembly is getting lighter! Now it's a skosh under 4 oz.  I keep carving and sanding, and I guess it's showing up. 

--Ray

OK there's a fourth style--I'll sketch some possibilities and post a pic; iif we can't settle on one common approach, each can use his own favorite; it won't affect the rib shapes except for  length at the TE end,  and I can show alternative lengths on my layouts easily enough. 

Yeah, Roger, with rib patterns and setting ribs at 3" spacing, it's really all you need, the new wing taper comes automatic.  Only thing I plan to change from stock on the back fuselage/rudder assembly is to eliminate some of the redundant structure--formers #5 & 7, for instance, and some of the diagonal/peripheral bracing shown.  Earlier posts about overbuilding certainly apply here!  That structure doesn't support anything but itself. See my wing layout above for a top view, formers I would eliminate are not drawn in bold.  I'll post a side view pic later this AM.

--Ray

Fellas, here's my offerings as to Te options:
First pic--as plans, as near as I can tell.
2nd--Frank's idea.
3rd--Roger's idea.
4th--"interior" TE
5th--sort of a combination of several.

Also, a pic of my suggested fuselage/fin mods.  Everything I consider redundant is crossed off. 

Reactions, suggestions?

--Ray

Ray,
My thoughts on the TE options.
* First, thanks for the great drawings (to nice to call them "sketches").
#1 - Probably the "heaviest" option
#2 - Good concept, but, as mentioned earlier it creates another "seam line". Does lend itself to installing vertical webs at fwd end of TE sheeting. We could install the 1/8 TE and lower TE sheeting. then fit vertical webs, sand to fit and then cap off with upper TE sheeting. Note: Balsa wedges at hinge locations, if used, must be installed before upper TE sheeting applied.
#3 - same as #2 without the visible extra "seam line".
#4 - Does not add (appreciably) any bending strength to wing and requires "finesse" to cut the rib slots. Does support the vertical web approach, balsa blocks at hinge locations (recommended as hinge slot will just about cut away all the 1/16 x 1/2 material) will require two pieces, one above and one below the 1/16 x 1/2 piece). Also, cap strips terminating at aft face of TE do not give a smooth edge (laterally), ie The covering will pull up slightly as it goes from the cap strip to the TE material, adhere to the TE material and then lift from the TE surface to the next cap strip.
#5 - second only to #1 re being heaviest. Cap strip/covering comment from #4 also applies.

Had a thought, for the next build of a FA. IF we could come up with a light, simple design to incorporate removable "flapevators" we would have an additional "flight trim feature".

Have not studied the fuselage mods yet.  Later today.

To all:
While the three of us are doing this, constructive comments from others on the forum are welcome.
Roger

#3 looks about right Ray. I can build it with just the ribs outlines also.

Earning a living will be slowing me down for a few weeks as far as building goes, but I will try to hang in there and keep up with you guys.

We haven't really addressed engine cooling, so that's good Roger that you're turning some attention to it.  One thing in our favor is that the Norvels do tend to run pretty cool, it shouldn't take much.  I hollowed out my bottom block fairly severely so it could serve as an exit-air conduit OK.  I do know from reading after the big guys that there needs to be more exit area than entrance. 

I think you're right about former #2's angle...'course if you straighten it you'll lose vital tank space.  And if you move it aft  to regain that space you'll be adding weight since the MM rails and ply. tank "floor" run all the way back to it...or if you leave them short you'll lose some needed strength in the nose.  As designed, it does help tie everything together. I wouldn't mess with it much.

I'm now working on wing construction methods, maybe incorporating leveling tabs into the ribs, to be trimmed off later.  I hate building in a jig, dunno why...the fact I don't have one and would have to fabricate something to serve may have something to do with it.  Rib height is tapered from root to tip,although not a lot, about 1/4" per surface.  TE is of course straight, so building with it flat on the table, and trim tabs on the ribs of varying heights, should do it.  I'm still drawing.

--Ray

You guys sound like professional modelers.
I'm wrapping up the engine pod on my Arrow today. And then I'm going to put more paint on my LA HEAT. It might be a few days before I post any new pictures. I have a little space on the table for cutting out ribs for the Arrow so probably I'll get the ribs cut out over the weekend.

Carry on fellas.