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  • November 18, 2018, 04:35:42 PM

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Author Topic: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks  (Read 2446 times)

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2018, 04:34:59 PM »
More kits that can work well:

Brodak 1/2A Pathfinder
SIG 1/2 A Skyray (sheet wing, but works just fine anyway)

Oldies worth consideration if you can find one:

Wee Duper Zilch (PAW 1/2 CC motor would be killer here!)
1/2 A Snapper. (Tee Dee .020 or Atwood/Holland Wasp)
Mini Omega Stunter
Skyfire (foam wing version) Black Widow and plan to refuel)
Cox Me-109
Cox Chipmunk
Cox Spook
Cox other foam wing job who’s name I can’t remember (Mike Pratt design, and a darn good job, too)
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!


Offline John Paris

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2018, 07:55:39 PM »
More kits that can work well:

Brodak 1/2A Pathfinder
SIG 1/2 A Skyray (sheet wing, but works just fine anyway)

Oldies worth consideration if you can find one:

Wee Duper Zilch (PAW 1/2 CC motor would be killer here!)
1/2 A Snapper. (Tee Dee .020 or Atwood/Holland Wasp)
Mini Omega Stunter
Skyfire (foam wing version) Black Widow and plan to refuel)
Cox Me-109
Cox Chipmunk
Cox Spook
Cox other foam wing job who’s name I can’t remember (Mike Pratt design, and a darn good job, too)

Larry,
Hyper Viper sound about right?  It is a good flying airplane if there is some pull up front.
John
John Paris
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2018, 06:13:26 AM »
Yup, thanks!  H^^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2018, 05:22:11 AM »
May I ask.....who right now is actually working on the rules for the proposed Brodak event?  Thanks,Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2018, 06:44:22 AM »
I E mailed Will Davis, the CD.  He confirmed that discussion is in progress, but that's about all.

Based on Stunt Hanger interest, there should be at least 20 entries.

I have something in hand, but may need something else depending on how the rules come out. 
It's a Clown with a TeeDee .049.  It will do BOTH the modern and the OTS pattern on less than a ounce of fuel.
Paul Smith

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2018, 07:50:02 AM »
So, what is the latest news?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2018, 10:54:30 AM »
Interesting.  I was not aware that Brodak had changed the Baby Clown kit to accommodate beam mounted engines. I built mine a while back, and had to kit-bash the fuselage to mount a Cox Medallion. I kept the same nose length from drive washer to wing LE. But because there is no plastic engine mount in the way, had no issues mounting a tank. The only configuration I think might pose space problems is if you were going to run a Killer Bee type setup with a separate tank but using the plastic engine mount. It might fit, but be sure to measure....

The other significant difference between the kit and the ARF, unless they have changed this as well, is that the kit had a sparless wing. I found it to be plenty strong unless made of stunt mushwood, so the spars would just be excess botheration.

Dave

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #57 on: November 06, 2018, 08:06:47 AM »
Just yesterday ay our field a few of us were discussing this 1/2A Stunt deal. We all kind of agreed that the engine limit should be .061. We thought that 42' maximum line length would work. Also thought that all planes need to have landing gear to ROG and land nicely. We all thought that we should use the full Pampa Stunt Pattern with the 8 minute time limit. We didn't get around to discussing electric powered planes,but IMHO ,why not allow the Brodak 1/2A Electric stuff that is available? We need to get the rules nailed down so we can start building!.....Cheers,Skip

Online Target

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2018, 02:40:54 PM »
Why the line length limit, Skip?
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2018, 06:51:22 AM »
Who's "we", Skip?

As with other events, the rules will be handed down when the time is right and the cutoff will put somebody on top.

If they say .049 or .061 vs a certain weight of electric it will be an all-electric event.  But it will be their event, not ours.
Paul Smith

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #60 on: November 07, 2018, 08:18:40 AM »
The key to specifying electrics is the total work output allowed. A gas motor puts out x amount of power for the given flight time. That is the measure of total work in horsepower-hours, or for electrics Watt-hours.

For electrics, specify a maximum Watt-hour capacity. 11.5 Watt-hours might be about right. That would allow a 1000 mAh 3s or 1500 mAh 2s. That limits the size of possible planes to 1/2A size. About right for a Baby Clown or Baby Flite Streak.

Actually, Andy Borgogna found that he needed a 1375mAh 3s for the Baby Pathfinder. That would be 15.5 Watt-hours. If you want to fly models of that size, go to 15.5 Watt-hour limit.

With a capacity limit, the motor and prop combination are up to the modeler.

I also want to know why specify a maximum line length. Doesn’t seem to be a sensible requirement.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2018, 08:59:59 AM »
The "we" was me,Banjock and the Cooks. Just a bunch of guys talkin' about it,not making rules.

Line length came up,but not really a sticking point. Fly what you want.

Regarding the electrics you guys know better than I .Larry, thanks for the info.

My thing is this.....whoever is going to cast the rules (whatever they are) needs to publish them so "we" can get building!......Cheers,Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2018, 10:23:58 AM »
The key to specifying electrics is the total work output allowed. A gas motor puts out x amount of power for the given flight time. That is the measure of total work in horsepower-hours, or for electrics Watt-hours.

For electrics, specify a maximum Watt-hour capacity. 11.5 Watt-hours might be about right. That would allow a 1000 mAh 3s or 1500 mAh 2s. That limits the size of possible planes to 1/2A size. About right for a Baby Clown or Baby Flite Streak.

Actually, Andy Borgogna found that he needed a 1375mAh 3s for the Baby Pathfinder. That would be 15.5 Watt-hours. If you want to fly models of that size, go to 15.5 Watt-hour limit.

With a capacity limit, the motor and prop combination are up to the modeler.

I also want to know why specify a maximum line length. Doesn’t seem to be a sensible requirement.

That's the problem.

In events that mix real engines and motors there have been NO limitations on the motors, but extremely hard line limitations on the engines.
The total weight of the model is NOT a limitation of motor power.
Things such as swept volume, fuel formula, banning pressure systems and tuned pipes hinder to power of engines.
Thus far there have been no such limits applied to motors.

There might be a case that huge engines, like 10 cc and above can compete with motors.
But there is NO fairness whatsoever to justify mixing motors and 15's or 1/2A's.

If you want to create a "small motor" event, have right at it.  But leave 1/2A's and 15's alone.

Paul Smith

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2018, 10:07:09 AM »
So what airplane do you guys think will be the most popular?

It's not sounding like ill get to use my big mig .061. Why would you make .061  for experts only?

How much fuel does a .049 use for the full pattern?  How about a .061?

Probably a dumb question but would you be able to use that Carl Goldberg string for lines?  If not what kind of lines would you use?
Chris
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2018, 05:09:53 PM »
Formerly,

The fuel requirement is going to depend a lot on the engine and setup. Running a stock Medallion .049 I use about 0.8 oz. of 25% fuel.

Others have run the TeeDee .049 and said they needed more like 1-1/4 oz. Not sure but I suspect it might have been 35%.

The larger tank for Cox reed engines is 8cc or about 0.027 oz.  I think you can do a pattern in two tanks on a reed engine. I haven't tried it myself but I have pitted for those who have. It works as long as the contest rules allow it.

As far as lines, you are kidding about the original Dacron lines, right? Unless you want a ton of drag (such as for a trainer plane), use either .008" stranded steel cable or 30 lb test Spectra fishing line. The .008 lines perform well, but will not stand any abuse. The Spectra withstands most abuse and works well.

As far as the plane, do you care which is most popular? Pick one you like or design/modify one to suit you. If they allow 1cc engines, and if I was going to build a kit, I'd look at the Baby Pathfinder. Easy enough to build and lots of performance. If it is going to be an .049 event, I would go for a Medallion and a kit Baby Clown or Baby Flight Streak if you are in a hurry. If you have some time to build, then there are a lot of other good choices.

Divot Mcslow

PS--The Baby Clown will likely be the most common entry if the event is popular. There are a ton of them out there......

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2018, 09:54:24 PM »
If you add flaps to the Baby Clown, it becomes a Baby Super Clown.  :D
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2018, 10:42:54 PM »
Larry,

You've flown both:  which do you think flies better, the Baby or the Baby Super?

Divot

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 06:27:28 AM »
Super,  of course.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan

BTW, Dracula Sucks!

A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Chris Fretz / Formerly known as #Liner

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 10:32:39 AM »


Formerly,





As far as lines, you are kidding about the original Dacron lines, right? Unless you want a ton of drag (such as for a trainer plane),

As far as the plane, do you care which is most popular?

No I actually wasn't kidden about Dracron lines. I don't fly much 1/2a just for amusement. Of the lines I have tried the Dracron were the only ones that had little drag that would let the airplane stunt. Whatever the other ones were I couldn't get the plane to stunt. But thanks for the info,  I will give the Spectra line a try.

What is the normal line length?

I'm using like 29ft ONLY cause that's all I could fit in the backyard.

I do care what the most popular plane might be just for curiosity sake.

The only 1/2a I have that stunts ok has a .061 on it,  so I'll  have to see what I can do to get a .049 to preform.

Chris

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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 04:06:23 PM »
Chris,

You have what may be an exception to all the rules:  if your circle is limited to 29' lines, and you are using an .061, you may actually need the extra drag of the lines? But you probably have to compensate with some extra tip weight or offsets. If you drop back to an .049 you probably want to try the Spectra. If you go to longer lines you definitely want to try the Spectra, or the steel cables which I believe would provide maximum performance. What prop are you running on your setup?

I have a Lil Satan on 26' Spectra (30 lb test) lines that has a Black Widow .049 running a Master Airscrew 6x3.  It turns rapid lap times. But it hangs out there pretty good, too. It could use longer lines, but I have not experimented at all yet. (The 26' lines were called out on the plans.)

I fly a Baby Clown with Medallion on .008x42' stranded cable. Engine near peak, it will do all the stunts that I can do--and certainly more. Decent line tension until the wind comes up. The setup will actually do a 4-2 run, but then it doesn't have the authority to do all the maneuvers, and the problem is compounded in the wind.

I fly a SIG Baby Skyray for a trainer on .008x42' stranded steel. Cox Baby Bee with a Cox 6x3 flexible prop. It has a big steel fender washer for tip weight. It makes a great initial flight trainer since the lap times are pretty slow, and will fly in a good breeze without coming in. I find that you are not going to get a brand new trainee to back up to maintain line tension. This combination solves that problem.

Some of the local guys fly .061 stunt planes on about 42'. They scream them out for airspeed and line tension and it lets them do full patterns--at a pretty high speed. Faster than my reflexes, anyway.

So somewhere in the middle of all these there should be a good combination for you.

Best of luck,

Divot McSlow

PS--What I am waiting for are the results of Larry Renger's Foam-fold wing stunt plane setup. The reason is that he has an external tank on a product engine in a stunter. Getting the engine to draw consistently thru the full tank and hold a good setting.....     Anyway, I have a Guillows P-40 kitbash that awaits engine and tank installation.  So far I have a stock Killer Bee backplate and a custom metal tank running small plastic tubing. I worry about the tubing being too restrictive. I think Larry drilled his venturi for more power. I know he had some fueling issues related to plumbing. This type of setup opens up the possibility of a decent reed valve stunt plane that will do the whole pattern using cheap and available parts. What's not to like?


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