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Author Topic: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks  (Read 17811 times)

Offline bob whitney

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1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« on: August 24, 2018, 11:14:49 AM »
1/2 A stunt at Brodaks

looks like they are going to try and have 1/2 a stunt on thurs .two class's #1 .049 and #2 .061. they are still working on the specifics

rad racer

Offline mike londke

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2018, 03:31:12 PM »
I'm interested.
AMA 48913  USPA D-19580  NRA Life Member  MI State Record Holder 50 way Freefall Formation Skydive  "Don't let the planet sneak up on you"

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2018, 05:35:32 PM »
   It might be more simple to just have one class and call it "1cc" stunt like one of the western clubs did for years. No confusion or the need to deal with teching engines for size. Or just have a "true" 1/2A class like they did at the NATS for several years. No engines above .050 allowed.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2018, 11:11:09 PM »
             I think at this point it would be imperative to allow all sizes up to .061 just like we do in 1/2A combat today. This allows for the Cox TD .051 which I use exclusively. In addition, I think this is a monumental contest for this neck of the woods as I have wanted to do this kind of thing for years. Whenever 1/2A is suggested, many don't want to participate in playing with smaller mills as they feel they're finicky.  If two classes are decided than it should be kept as said. I would certainly like to be a participant in this event.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2018, 01:23:52 AM »
Unless there are a lot of entries and you need to split it up, I'm not sure I see a good reason to separate .049's from .061's. Would be fun to see them going head to head on the same circle. Only separate out the scoring? For stunt, I'm not sure I see a big advantage  of the .061 except that you can fly a bit bigger plane. They don't always fly better though. Maybe the lack of trimming or the lack of development? Flying "1cc" out here the issue is often that the tank/venturi setup on the .061's is not worked out well. The run keeps speeding up until the flight is just a blur. This doesn't seem to be an issue with the Medallion .049's that are flying locally. I haven't seen anyone campaigning a straight TeeDee for some time now. I used to have one in a decent profile plane. I'm going to have to build another one of those. It flew way better than I did...but I don't remember how tractable the engine was. I don't remember having problems--but it was a long time ago.

Dave

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2018, 03:19:35 PM »
Small handful of years ago, Larry Renger published a "1/2A" stunter, which I believe RSM now kits. He had a great solution to the engine run problem! Engine was an AP or NorVel with muffler pressure tap. (One of the Cox engine"mufflers" could adapt a Cox engine.)

A "slack" balloon tank like the one that came with the AJ "near-RTF" 1/2A of the 1950's, but with a big difference.

A fuel balloon goes inside a muffler pressure balloon. Both are wrapped to seal on the same plug, which has two tubes through it.  The outer balloon is 'piped' to the muffler pressure. The inner balloon connects ONLY to the needle valve. Result - mild, but constant pressure feeding the engine. NOT sensitive to height, to g-loads or to fuel remaining.

The front of the (profile) model has an empty box built-in for the balloons. Looks almost like cheek cowls... Easy access to fill or replace. Balloon 'rubber' deteriorates in sunlight, and from hi-nitro fuels that 1/2A engines like. Larry describes how to recognize a tank near failure: feels - gummy, etc.  The tanks are simple to make. You should bring a few spares when you fly. That's the old insurance trick. Whatever you insure never fails, unless you let the coverage lapse...

Removing a level of finicky problems could be great for 'metric 1/2A' events AND sport flying.

\BEST\LOU

Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2018, 03:26:58 PM »
Of course, the AJ model WAS the Firebaby! Larry's design was, I think, the Sky Dancer.
\BEST\LOU

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2018, 08:40:40 PM »
the people doing the judging feel they can handle both class's  the same as they do classic and N 30 and make both sides happy
rad racer

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2018, 09:30:30 PM »
Bobber,
Unless you have a LOT of 1/2A entries, running them together is the way to go. At our fall 1/2A "non-contest," we had something like 127 planes in the pits. The number might have been higher, but people kept taking them out of the pits to fly and we'd have to start counting all over again.

Lou,
I flew today with Larry, and he was fiddling with a metal hard tank on his 1cc stunter. (A SkyStreak maybe?) I needled it in a bit before takeoff and it was just about there, but it ran a little thin up high and late in the pattern. And definitely faster inverted. So he was tuning the tank today....  He was pleased with the progress and said that this combo ran a bit better than it had up to that point....

Dave "McSlow"

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2018, 09:32:33 AM »
The plane I was flying is the Skysport. It is a kit availale from RSM.  Current power is an AP Wasp .061 swinging a Cox 5*3 prop. The tank is a bit too large at 35cc. The engine has a Holuszko Venturi. Sadly the venturies are no longer available, but a Norvel Big MIG would do just fine.

A Medallion wold work on shorter lines or a Tee Dee on pressure.

Currently I fly .008*40’ lines, but a foot shorter would be better.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2018, 03:38:22 PM »
Unless there are a lot of entries and you need to split it up, I'm not sure I see a good reason to separate .049's from .061's. Would be fun to see them going head to head on the same circle. Only separate out the scoring? For stunt, I'm not sure I see a big advantage  of the .061 except that you can fly a bit bigger plane. They don't always fly better though. Maybe the lack of trimming or the lack of development? Flying "1cc" out here the issue is often that the tank/venturi setup on the .061's is not worked out well. The run keeps speeding up until the flight is just a blur. This doesn't seem to be an issue with the Medallion .049's that are flying locally. I haven't seen anyone campaigning a straight TeeDee for some time now. I used to have one in a decent profile plane. I'm going to have to build another one of those. It flew way better than I did...but I don't remember how tractable the engine was. I don't remember having problems--but it was a long time ago.

Dave

A bigger engine is always an advantage, especially on the low end.  An 061 event would be just an 061 event. 
Paul Smith

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2018, 08:35:29 AM »
A bigger engine is always an advantage, especially on the low end.  An 061 event would be just an 061 event.

An 049  model can fly just as good a patten as an 061. Sadly, the only 049s available are old ones except for the Brodak. The Mk 1 Brodak can be made to run well with the Galbreath head. I have no experience with the Mk 2.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2018, 07:59:19 PM »
How about a PAW .049?  I just happened to be looking at the price sheet today. It said 68 pounds.

I'm still using .008x41ish on my Baby Clown with Medallion. Hard tank. Renger/RSM handle at 1-3/4" spacing. Flies better than I do. Gonna have to fix that some day. Picture is before I added canopy and rudder trim and before it was in a truck crash. Truck was totaled--the plane soldiers on....

Dave

Offline John Paris

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2018, 08:02:16 PM »
Bob,
It may be sacrilegious but need to ask, will this be open to the 1/2a size electrics?  May pull in additional flyers since there are obvious benefits to electrics from an ease of operation standpoint.  However I appreciate the challenge that the little engines present and would be happy to give it a shot with glow power.  I would guess that the preference would be for beam mount engines with big enough tanks to get through some pattern.  Any thoughts about the engines with tanks?
Thank you,
John
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2018, 10:43:48 PM »
We set a 15 Watt-hour battery as the equivalent of a 1cc engine running for 6 minutes. Use it as you will with a low voltage, high capacity or high voltage low capacity system. We found a 1300 mAH 3 s battery worked well with a 150W 1100 kv motor and 7x5 prop. This powered a 1/2A Pathfinder really well.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 07:26:18 AM »
Bob,
It may be sacrilegious but need to ask, will this be open to the 1/2a size electrics?  May pull in additional flyers since there are obvious benefits to electrics from an ease of operation standpoint.  However I appreciate the challenge that the little engines present and would be happy to give it a shot with glow power.  I would guess that the preference would be for beam mount engines with big enough tanks to get through some pattern.  Any thoughts about the engines with tanks?
Thank you,
John

Sure, why not.  Maybe just limit the total weight to 2-1/2 pounds like "15 Carrier".

There is no such thing as an electric 15 or an electric 1/2A.

Why not just pioneer an electric stunt event?
Paul Smith

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 07:30:08 AM »
We set a 15 Watt-hour battery as the equivalent of a 1cc engine running for 6 minutes. Use it as you will with a low voltage, high capacity or high voltage low capacity system. We found a 1300 mAH 3 s battery worked well with a 150W 1100 kv motor and 7x5 prop. This powered a 1/2A Pathfinder really well.

An engine that can turn a 7x5 prop is a 15, not a 1/2A.

Electrics circumvent all the problems of getting a small engine to work well and are therefore NOT ever equivalent to competition with true engines, despite the lame rationalizations put forward by a few would-be intruders.
Paul Smith

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2018, 12:26:02 PM »
John, they are still working out the problem of small tanks on the reed jobs

having built an .09  size ringmaster I hope they would make electric s sep class
rad racer

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2018, 05:55:55 PM »
Why another stunt event?? S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline John Paris

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2018, 08:27:38 PM »
John, they are still working out the problem of small tanks on the reed jobs

having built an .09  size ringmaster I hope they would make electric s sep class

Bob,
Sounds fair on the small electric option.  I will work on a beam mounted option for next year. 
Regards,
John
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2018, 10:04:42 PM »
John, they are still working out the problem of small tanks on the reed jobs

having built an .09  size ringmaster I hope they would make electric s sep class

That was solved 60 years ago by drilling a hole in the tank and hooking up a Perfect wedge tank.  Or just using one of the "product" engines currently being produced.

What's the source of the rumor of these events?
Paul Smith

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2018, 09:42:02 AM »

Yes the electrics turn a 7*5, but at 9000 rpm, way slower than a glow engine.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2018, 12:53:23 PM »
Why another stunt event?? S?P

By my count The Brodak offered 7 Stunt events, 4 Scale, 4 Carrier, 3 Speed, 2 Racing, 1 Combat and 2 novelty events.  Of these, many offered two, three, or four ability classes.  Racing events & junkyard wars offered extra plaques for team members.  Some of these events are offered on an either/or basis so you can't enter them all.  This addition brings it to 9 stunt events.

That's A LOT of prizes and at $10 an event, I estimate that Mr. Brodak is operating well below cost.   So let's give 1/2A a try as offered and don't haggle for new rules before the first pass.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 05:04:21 AM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2018, 01:46:00 PM »
I checked with the CD today.

Something called 1/2A Stunt is in the works, but the details have yet to be decided.

My suggestion, for what's it worth, is AMA CLPA with 1/2A engines.  Simple enough.
Paul Smith

Offline Target

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2018, 07:00:24 PM »
An 049  model can fly just as good a patten as an 061. Sadly, the only 049s available are old ones except for the Brodak. The Mk 1 Brodak can be made to run well with the Galbreath head. I have no experience with the Mk 2.
NV offers a .8cc Big Mig. I believe that is an .049 and it comes in a venturi version.
EDIT- While checking for a link on their website i noticed they are NOT listing the .8 or .049 any longer. Guess i was mistaken, but up until recently they use to offer it.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2018, 03:41:57 PM »
I'm loving the idea of a 1/2A Stunt Event. I think that it should have two classes . One class for planes up to .051 (Sportsman) and another allowing planes up to .061(Expert).You have to choose one class or the other ,not both. I think that the planes should fly the complete CLPA pattern with take off and landing counting as they normally do. I'm waiting for the rules to be formally presented so that I can start building something new.

Regarding "Why another Stunt Class?  For the FUN of doing something different. Brodaks is the C/L fun capitol of the world,this type of event fits in perfectly.

I would  not worry about lack of entries on this one. I'm confident that the guys will come out of the woodwork for this! Cheers,PhillySkip
« Last Edit: September 11, 2018, 05:12:58 AM by Skip Chernoff »

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2018, 06:21:56 AM »
I agree with Chip except for the true 1/2A limitation.  The Rule Book says under .050 and that should be the rule.

The .051 was made as a cheater engine to allow 1/2A Free Flights to be entered in Class A. 
Thus it was made to be an A engine and it IS an A engine.

I also have some interest in the event and will be happy to enter providing it's just what the name says:  Stunt with 1/2A engines.
Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2018, 12:06:37 PM »
In that case my thought on the "sportsmen" class would be limited to .049 only ,but have the "expert" group for the folks with the .061s or even electric stuff.Cheers,Skip

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2018, 04:25:23 PM »
Quit being silly over this. A good 049 ship is totally competitive with an .061 model. I fly AP Wasp 061 models and John Wright kicks my @$$ with a 049.

Build a Stork with a Tee Dee 049 for power, and the rest is up to the pilot!

The engine I fly is modified with special venturi and head. None of which are still available new.

I don’t think there is a stock small engine currently in production for the event other than the Norvel Big MiG. If there is, let us all know!
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline James Holford

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2018, 06:24:18 PM »
Found drawings for a profile 1/2a stunter called White Lightning that tanks a teedee .049 up to a .061..

 May be interesting... altho it may not do well since no flaps and sheet wing

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Jamie Holford
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Offline Trostle

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2018, 11:17:35 PM »

 The Rule Book says under .050 and that should be the rule.

I also have some interest in the event and will be happy to enter providing it's just what the name says:  Stunt with 1/2A engines.

Of course, the rule book for the 1/2A speed events and the 1/2A FF event limits the engines to .0504 cu in displacement.

That should not dictate that a "1/2A Stunt" event should necessarily be limited to that same displacement.  The Tucson 1/2A multi engine profile scale event allowed engines up to 1cc (.061 cu in) displacement, though the rules were modified somewhat to not have the profile requirement similar to the AMA 1/2A scale rules.  One neat thing about the Norvel and engines currently from the East is that they have quite effective mufflers.  The Cox engines do not easily lend themselves to use mufflers.  (These Norvels and engines from the East also have effective throttles, - not so with most Cox engines, though not a factor for use in any 1/2A stunt event.)

Besides all of this, the CURRENT AMA rules for 1/2A Scale state "individual engine displaced volume shall not exceed .061 cubic inch or 1cc."  (2017-2018 rule book, Paragraph 5.5.)  There should be no argument that the term "1/2A" should only be limited to .0504 displacement for any "1/2A" stunt event.  The rules makers for any 1/2A stunt event can assign whatever displacement limit they choose.

Keith

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 01:05:43 AM »
No need to butcher up your sport plane engine (Cox Reedy with integral tanks) to enter a stunt contest. (Just put the drill down and back away from the engine, Paul.)  Instead, let them refuel and continue the pattern if they haven't finished. Either keep the overall time limit, or advertise what the time limit for tankies will be. Works fine out here in SoCal, but we don't get enough entries for this to cause any serious delay to the contest....

Those who want to go beyond a Sportsman approach won't need any advice on how to pick the parts needed to keep an engine running thru a whole pattern.

Good luck with your new event. It should be a lot of fun.

Dave

Offline Target

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 05:55:35 AM »

I don’t think there is a stock small engine currently in production for the event other than the Norvel Big MiG. If there is, let us all know!

LR- your favored ap wasp seems to be available at this time. Don't know how long though!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/ap-061a.html

R,
Target
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Joe Ed Pederson

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 06:23:52 AM »
LR- your favored ap wasp seems to be available at this time. Don't know how long though!

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/ap-061a.html

R,
Target

I went to the Hobby King website above and noticed the engine is shipped from "Global."   I've ordered stuff shipped from "Global" from Hobby King and the shipping charges are outrageous (will probably be more than the cost of the engine) and if you want to recieve it in less than two months, you'll really pay through the nose for shipping charges.


Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 09:30:47 AM »


In a performance event like Stunt 24% more swept volume is a HUGE difference.
Enough to make TRUE 1/2 A owners step away.

Clearly the owner of the field and of the contest can set any limit he wants in a special event. 
I heard that they might have two events, 1/2 A and 1 cc.  That would be a good government-style compromise.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 12:52:27 PM by Paul Smith »
Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2018, 09:32:10 AM »
I went to the Hobby King website above and noticed the engine is shipped from "Global."   I've ordered stuff shipped from "Global" from Hobby King and the shipping charges are outrageous (will probably be more than the cost of the engine) and if you want to recieve it in less than two months, you'll really pay through the nose for shipping charges.


Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO

I noticed several ads for products at "good" prices.  Then I found that the prices were based on shipping from Hong Kong, which killed the deals.
Paul Smith

Offline James Holford

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2018, 10:40:13 AM »
I went to the Hobby King website above and noticed the engine is shipped from "Global."   I've ordered stuff shipped from "Global" from Hobby King and the shipping charges are outrageous (will probably be more than the cost of the engine) and if you want to recieve it in less than two months, you'll really pay through the nose for shipping charges.


Joe Ed Pederson
Cuba, MO
Heck i couldnt even find the add to cart feature just to see how much it would be shipped to my house.  Altho I already have one of these lil Wasps .061.  I wonder if theres a venturi for it or do I have to lock the carb open.

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Jamie Holford
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Offline Trostle

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2018, 12:00:15 PM »
Two wrongs do not make a right.

It was a mistake to allow 1 cc engines in the American version of 1/2A Scale.  But it didn't amount to much given the minimal effect of power in the current 1/2 A Scale event.  They only score takeoff, level flight, landing and the always-nebulous "realism".

Clearly the owner of the field and of the contest can set any limit he wants in a special event. 


Well, you do not paint a very accurate picture.  The Tucson 1/2A multi engine scale contest has two categories:  Limited and Unlimited.

The Limited category is for engines without a throttle.  Obviously, in flight options are somewhat limited.

The Unlimited category is for engines with throttles.  Opens up a number of options as in the regular CL Scale events.

There is also a sub-catagory within the Limited event tried out the last two year the event was held called the Slab Award.  Unthrottled engines.  Construction except for materials used for engine firewalls/bulkheads could be with nothing more than 1/4" sheet balsa.

And one more thing, planes could be shipped to be proxy flown.  This was done several times over the years and the models were successfully competed.  There are a number of well qualified pilots in the Tucson/Phoenix area to help with this.

Keith

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2018, 12:51:24 PM »
I was referring AMA Rule Book 1/2 A Scale, not a local event.

If you can get through AMA's new web site, see paragraphs 3.3.6.2 and 3.3.6.4.

I was in error about the AMA engine size.  The Rule Book just says 1/2 A, so the regular .0504 cubic inch limit DOES apply. 

The Rule Book says "only the mandatory maneuvers", which boils down to the four I mentioned and excludes all the options.

I'm glad I was motivated to look this up.  I will not make the mistake of using an .061 and expose myself to exclusion.
Paul Smith

Offline Trostle

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2018, 02:19:10 PM »
I was referring AMA Rule Book 1/2 A Scale, not a local event.

If you can get through AMA's new web site, see paragraphs 3.3.6.2 and 3.3.6.4.

I was in error about the AMA engine size.  The Rule Book just says 1/2 A, so the regular .0504 cubic inch limit DOES apply. 

The Rule Book says "only the mandatory maneuvers", which boils down to the four I mentioned and excludes all the options.

I'm glad I was motivated to look this up.  I will not make the mistake of using an .061 and expose myself to exclusion.

What mistake would you be exposing yourself by using an .061?

I am so glad that you looked something up, but what did you find regarding the definition of 1/2A engines as it relates to the 1/2A Scale event?  I looked something up also and found in the AMA Control Line Scale rules, Paragraph 5.5:  "1/2A Engines/Motors.  individual engine displacement volume shall not exceed .061 cubic inch or 1cc.  Motor power must be in the range of 1/2A engines."

Seems very clear that the AMA rules for 1/2A CL scale allow engines with up to .061 cubic or 1cc displacement. 

Keith

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 08:03:57 PM »
Let’s not get off topic here! We are talking about a SMALL aerobatic engine event at the next Brodak meet. The rules can be whatever the CD wants them to be. In my experience, nitpickiking over engine size, plane size, line length etc. will limit the participation to few or none.

I have personally won 1st place with a Black Widow plane with one refueling with one second to spare on the standard 8 minute clock. It can be done. By the way, it was a forward swept flying wing with a Golden Bee for power. * :D

Plan to fly what you have and have fun! If there is good participation, refine the rules next year. After15 years of trying to promote small engine stunt here on the left coast (too far left, but let’s not get into that), getting ANYONE to compete is the real challenge. Heck, we even have a rather handsome perpetual trophy on the line here. It took me ten years to get my name on it, and I built the darn thing.

* Gloat time!!! I beat John Wright who was flying my Skyfire design as built by Bart Klapinsky. How could it get better than that? Probably the pinnacle of my stunt career! I did have Brett Buck as my pit crew, so give credit where it is due!  #^
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:47:34 PM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2018, 08:43:36 AM »
It's good to discuss these issues when an event is in the planning phase.

The only relevent options are those of people who might actually FLY the event if the rules go their way.

I've entered The Brodak 15 times and frequently win the "most events entered" award. 

Hopefully, those who are planning this event will make a sound business decision. A decision not based on pleasing those who will never enter under any conditions.
Paul Smith

Offline Target

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2018, 11:53:51 AM »

1. It's good to discuss these issues when an event is in the planning phase.

2. The only relevent options are those of people who might actually FLY the event if the rules go their way.

3. I've entered The Brodak 15 times and frequently win the "most events entered" award. 

4. Hopefully, those who are planning this event will make a sound business decision. A decision not based on pleasing those who will never enter under any conditions.


Hi, Paul-


1. Absolutely. You're 100% right about that. But, hindsight is 20-20, so if it doesn't work out well this time, polling the attendees to find out what would have worked better is the discussion for pre-planning next year, right? If it DOES work out well this upcoming year, then probably it should be left well enough alone for the next year after.


2. Even better than that, is getting the MOST attendance. If two or three guys are "strictly 1/2A" and won't attend that event if it is open to 1cc, but many more will attend if it is not just 1/2A, and includes 1cc, then don't you agree that it should be handled to get the most attendance? I'll bet you agree to that, but maybe you don't. Maybe splitting the contest WOULD work best? I guess one way to find out is try it and see. If not enough separate entries, maybe merging is the best solution?


3. That is awesome. Sounds like you will hopefully have even one more event to attend, 1/2A or 1cc, whichever it is, or maybe both? Maybe you will have two events that you could also attend.


4. While I may never get to Brodak's, since I'm a left coaster (now), you never know what will happen upon retirement. I'm pretty sick of SoCal's BS/Traffic/Crazy cost of living/CA tree huggers in office, etc. I could see myself moving east a ways, or north, who knows.
Maybe I will make it there one day if the tradition continues. I would like to fly a bunch of .061's that I have kits for and engines for. That (1cc) seems to be working out in tree hugger land, SoCal so far. I hope it continues.
However, your point is well taken. I'm not flying there this time, so it should cater to the guys that will, first and foremost.


Kind Regards,
Target
I hope to see some cool 1/2A and 1cc pics from the next contest there.
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2018, 08:57:26 AM »
I'm hoping that the folks who are working on the rules for the Brodak event get them published soon as I'm all "souped up" and want to get started building a couple of these 1/2A stunters........and I'll promote the crap out of this so we do get a good turnout for the event. Seems like great fun to me! PhillySkip

Offline jfv

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2018, 04:03:10 PM »
Me too.  I want to start building!
Jim Vigani

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #45 on: September 19, 2018, 11:49:06 PM »
This is one of the most ridiculous discussions that have developed! .049 and .061 models if built and flown by expert pilots are equally competitive. It is the skill of the pilot and his ability to get the optimum performance from his model that will make the difference.

I scored a 485 with a Tee Dee .020 powered 1/2 A Snapper in the wind once. Quitcherbitchen and just see who who will reallY enter the contest and see what they want. I fly both sizes and both are a challenge to get perfect.

The old maxim on small model stunt was “He who gets a good engine runs wins”. It is still pretty much true. Randy Heydon had a .010 stunter, the Litl Bit that could turn a decent pattern. This is a case where size really isn’t an issue, craftsmanship and skill will carry the day. Show up with an untested model and you WILL lose.

If you want to be a winner, build well ahead of time and fly a lot. Solve the problems before the contest, and you could win with a Brodak ARF Baby Clown. It will do a flawless pattern if you are good enough.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »
So, what is the current attitude? Is anyone doing a survey to decide on the rules, or, perhaps is there a CD who will make the decision.  Since I live on the Left Coast (way too far left, but let's not get into that) I can only relate my experience in trying to make small plane flying happen here. The pros won't fly it "because it takes too much time at a contest or it will throw off my timing or they don't fly right or whatever excuse they can come up with".

The only success we have had is to open it up to 1cc and have one separate event a year at the Toys for Tots in December.  Even then, the participation is pitiful.  Breaks my heart, I tell you. The planes fly great, and it could be a good event, but getting flyers seems hopeless. Obviously, I have been a small model fan all my life and would love to see this event succeed.

Whatever you guys do, make it as all inclusive as you can!

Short list of competitive available kits:

Brodak Baby Clown (Kit, ARC and ARF)
Brodak Baby Flite Streak (Nostalgia at it's best! Find an Atwood Shriek for power, or not.)
Brodak Baby Lightning Streak
Brodak Stork (in my experience, impossible to build so badly it won't fly great)
SIG 1/2A Skyray (Sheet wing design, but you would never know. You can refuel to fly through the whole pattern, been there, done that, won!)
RSM Sky Sport (yes,it is my design, but Bart Klapinsky did a 498 with it on his first flight with it!)
RSM Pinto (Actually, Dee Rice Baby Oriental)
RSM Tercel (slightly scaled up version of the multiple Nationals winner by Keith Trostle)
Eric also has a couple of more kits that could be competitive, but my memory fails me at the moment.

Also available from RSM on special order:
Sky Streak forward swept flying wing (my design, but dang, it looks cool in the air and turns sharp and smooth. See my Ikon)
Baby Magician (Really a great design! My 1/2 A adaptation of Jim Silhavey's superb model (as originally designed, not as kitted, I have the letter to prove it!). With a hopped up .061 on pressure feed Antone Kepart flies it like a big one on 50' lines. With a stock engine on shorter lines it is still a winner.)
Profile Baby Oriental
1/2 A Still Stuka


60 years of magazine designs and older kits like the 1/2 A Snapper, Baby Barnstormer, Wee Duper Zilch, Mini Zilch, Top Flite 1/2A Mustang etc. series! Shucks, the whole small Brodak fleet can be made to go through a pattern, and most of them, like the Swe'Pea could also be flown in 1/2 A scale. There are so many models that can do a pattern, you should have several just to have them. Cheap and don't take up much room.

And (the designer modestly admits) Eric has the best 1/2A handle available.

I think there are some more models of competitive quality out there, so let you guys add to the list!

Also, we sill need information on what competitive engines are realistically available. I would go with the Norvel, Tee Dee, Medallion, and ASP, but if you are willing to do the refuel thing The Golden Bee, Black Widow, and (lots of luck finding one) Venom will pull a model quite nicely.  If you are a glutton for punishment, the PAW diesels will do the job really well.

Sadly, my experience with the Fox .049 was a disaster (multiple crashes despite much experimentation). The Brodak Mk 1 can be made to run well (do a search for details). Cubs can be made to crank the r's with minor modifications (see the Engine Set up Thread). Holland Hornets will certainly put out the power, but I have no stunt experience with them, probably need pressure feed. The Atwood Shriek will pull through the maneuvers just fine in my experience. Atwood Wasps are pretty anemic, but also reliable. Tee Dees need a lot of practice and experimentation go get working right, but crank out the power (The car head heat sink and pressure feed seem to be the trick).

Let's hear it about what you have found to work!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 04:54:32 PM by Larry Renger »
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2018, 08:50:20 PM »
I keep reading references to an ARF Baby Clown, but only see an ARC.  Is it available only by calling Brodak?

Mark

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2018, 09:11:50 AM »
In general, E order from Brodak or an in-person visit to Carmichaels are the two ways to buy Brodak products.
Paul Smith

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2018, 09:39:05 AM »
          The kit is going to offer a lot more for less. There's a substantial difference. The other is that the ARF/ ARC offers a plastic mount which in my opinion is poor. The screws elongate the fuse which is more than likely too soft which I have experienced in many of the ARF/ARC examples I have seen. The landing gear upon landing jams the mount upwards which is what is responsible for the elongated holes. Tightening the screws offers short term durability and eventually crushes the fuse to the point that it breaks directly behind the mount. I just dismantled my ARF due to this problem. I have since cut a new fuse with harder 1/4" balsa and also applied two pieces of hardwood where the screws pass through the fuse. In addition, the plane in my opinion is a bit tail heavy. Extending the fuse in the front not only tames this, it offers a little more real estate for a tank. In stock form the tank will be resting directly on the plastic mount. If the screws retaining the engine are not cleanly cut off flush to the back of the mount, they will cut into the tank due to vibration and or nosing it in due to the tight fit. 

           While i have no experience with the kit built version ( At least the Baby Clown) , the kit offers beam mount construction which would allow for a Medallion . The Medallion would be a very suitable powerplant for the Baby Clown. Of the newer redesigned beam mount versions I have seen from Brodak, I would change the doublers and extend them back onto the leading edge. I wasn't very fond of how they both stopped short and at the same place on the fuse. I recently watched someone snap the front end off just due to starting the engine. Last but not least, the covering on the ARF fails very quickly exposing the surfaces to oil contamination. Packing tape is in order to prevent the covering from sheeting off therefore a ARC would allow for good covering and durability. To date, I have had 3 of them and I never addressed the covering on 2 of them. After removing the covering when it got that bad, nothing would stick to the balsa so off to the trash can they went. I managed to save one which is the one I fly now.


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