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Author Topic: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks  (Read 17809 times)

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #100 on: December 24, 2018, 04:52:30 PM »
Why don't they just use the OTS pattern for 1/2A. A little simpler and could even allow some of the older simpler flat wing designs to complete.

Best,    DennisT

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2018, 06:55:15 PM »
Why don't they just use the OTS pattern for 1/2A. A little simpler and could even allow some of the older simpler flat wing designs to complete.

Best,    DennisT

Perhaps because the OTS pattern sort of sucks. S?P

Pat MacKenzie
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #102 on: December 25, 2018, 08:13:40 PM »
Ah the "good ol Days" when line length was 1/2 the distance between the trees in the back yard!  That is why that "Fancy" Cox handle had a spool so you could fly in your buddy's back yard too!

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/123241780091_/Vintage-Cox-Control-Line-Handle-For-Control-Line.jpg

Ken

my brother and I had both sizes of the Cox handles.   They worked great for back then as what did we know back then.   Don't where they are any more. D>K
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Offline mike londke

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2018, 08:58:01 PM »
Any word on final, published rules?
AMA 48913  USPA D-19580  NRA Life Member  MI State Record Holder 50 way Freefall Formation Skydive  "Don't let the planet sneak up on you"

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #104 on: January 03, 2019, 05:50:46 PM »
Pat,

I disagree about the Old Time Stunt pattern. This pattern is not as easy to fly well and score high. Although you don't have the same number of hard corners, in many OTS contests there are K factors for the eights which makes shape, intersections and size very important.

Another positive for using the OTS pattern for 1/2A is that there are numerous Brodak 1/2A kits that would do the OTS pattern but would not have the turning ability for the PA pattern. Just say'n.

Best,   DennisT
 

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #105 on: January 03, 2019, 06:06:00 PM »
Chris,

You have what may be an exception to all the rules:  if your circle is limited to 29' lines, and you are using an .061, you may actually need the extra drag of the lines? But you probably have to compensate with some extra tip weight or offsets. If you drop back to an .049 you probably want to try the Spectra. If you go to longer lines you definitely want to try the Spectra, or the steel cables which I believe would provide maximum performance. What prop are you running on your setup?


When I went to look back when you posted this the prop was not on the airplane. I forgot I broke it last time I flew it. I stumbled onto the prop the other day though it was a Windsor  6x4

Chris Fretz
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #106 on: January 03, 2019, 07:01:22 PM »
A 6x4 prop on a BibMig .061 on a 1/2A-sized plane using 26" lines?  You're gonna call that deal the "pilot hustle."  Should be fun if you can keep up with it....

Divot

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #107 on: January 03, 2019, 07:18:46 PM »
A 6x4 prop on a BibMig .061 on a 1/2A-sized plane using 26" lines?  You're gonna call that deal the "pilot hustle."  Should be fun if you can keep up with it....

Divot
Lol not so much!  Doing the full Patten would be a chore if I had got the tank height right at the time. Pretty much why the prop broke!

Here is 26sec if your looking to waist some time!
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Offline 944_Jim

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #108 on: January 03, 2019, 07:39:28 PM »
Wow, Chris! I'm impressed, and shamed...
Your video makes.me feel like a chicken. I've been slinging my 1960 Scientific P-40 (AP .061, Jan Haluzko venturi, 5x3 Cox 3 blade prop, 21" symmetric wings) on 38' lines. I'm just getting comfortable with wing-overs, and felt MAYBE I needed longer lines. Now I wonder why I can't seem to go inverted, nor loop.
Bock, bockbockbock, BOCK!

Next time I fly that bird, it crashes or loops. No other options now!

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #109 on: January 04, 2019, 12:54:29 AM »
Chris,

Is that just end-of-tank issues or does it surge/starve thru the whole flight?

Looks like it is pretty darn maneuverable even with that "big" engine. Nice! I've always been a fan of anything Goldberg designed.

Divot

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #110 on: January 04, 2019, 03:48:41 AM »
Chris,

Is that just end-of-tank issues or does it surge/starve thru the whole flight?

Looks like it is pretty darn maneuverable even with that "big" engine. Nice! I've always been a fan of anything Goldberg designed.

Divot
It wants to die the moment you go inverted. I never messed with it after that day,  I just wanted to fly something after winter last year. Then the big planes came out and that was that.
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #111 on: January 04, 2019, 12:27:16 PM »
Chris,

You should find a little time and fix that tank setup. Looks like it would be a fun plane if it ran steady. Plenty good to step out in the backyard and knock off some cobwebs....

Divot
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 10:24:21 AM by Dave Hull »

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #112 on: January 04, 2019, 01:27:40 PM »
 What do you guys use to finish these 1/2a's?  If being as light as possible is what you want do you guys use lite silkspan on the fuse and tail? Or will that yield a heavy model?

Chris
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #113 on: January 06, 2019, 08:26:39 AM »
Perhaps because the OTS pattern sort of sucks. S?P

Pat MacKenzie

How about the OTS pattern with pre-1952 designs?
Paul Smith

Offline Dennis Toth

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #114 on: January 07, 2019, 04:13:52 PM »
Paul,
There are several pre 52 1/2A designs that will do the OTS pattern but only a handful (the Roger Dodger, Pee Wee Zilch, 1/2A All American?, Snapper, High Pressure Pete maybe a few more). I like the OTS pattern for 1/2A because there are a lot of simple ships that could do this without the complications of doing a full blown flapped shipped. If you do have a flapped ship it can also compete there really isn't a big advantage (or disadvantage) with the flaps for this pattern, just fun.

Maybe one change would be to modify take-off and landing to allow hand launch, more of less giving points for a successful launch and a smooth approach to landing. Just a thought.

Best,    DennisT

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #115 on: January 07, 2019, 05:49:18 PM »
What do you guys use to finish these 1/2a's?  If being as light as possible is what you want do you guys use lite silkspan on the fuse and tail? Or will that yield a heavy model?

Chris

Japanese tissue works fine, but now Park Flyer film is probably lighter and more fuel proof. My preference is light Polyspan with park flyer film laminated over it. See the thread in “Paint and finishing” section.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #116 on: January 07, 2019, 06:47:52 PM »
Paul,
There are several pre 52 1/2A designs that will do the OTS pattern but only a handful (the Roger Dodger, Pee Wee Zilch, 1/2A All American?, Snapper, High Pressure Pete maybe a few more). I like the OTS pattern for 1/2A because there are a lot of simple ships that could do this without the complications of doing a full blown flapped shipped. If you do have a flapped ship it can also compete there really isn't a big advantage (or disadvantage) with the flaps for this pattern, just fun.

Maybe one change would be to modify take-off and landing to allow hand launch, more of less giving points for a successful launch and a smooth approach to landing. Just a thought.

Best,    DennisT

Actually, pre-1952 airframes designed  for the 15-29 size would do the AMA pattern just fine with modern .049's.

Que serra serra.  Whatever will be will be.
Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #117 on: January 08, 2019, 03:59:29 PM »
Attn. all of you 1/2A mugs the rules for Brodaks are now posted in Open Forum. Start building! PhillySkip

Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #118 on: January 08, 2019, 04:23:42 PM »
The rules seem OK to me.

One comment:
In the "small tank" option (for Black Widows, etc) the one lap between stunts, on short lines, will be a challenge for the judges. 
Their problem, not mine.
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Offline mike londke

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #119 on: January 08, 2019, 04:39:40 PM »
Attn. all of you 1/2A mugs the rules for Brodaks are now posted in Open Forum. Start building! PhillySkip
This is going to be fun!!
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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1/2A Brodak Pathfinder Build Started,New Norvel 061 Big Mig
« Reply #120 on: January 14, 2019, 06:31:25 PM »
I started building the Brodak 1/2A Pathfinder. The die cutting was fine,but you have to scratch build the 3 pieces of the wing spar and cut notches for all of the main ribs and a zillion little half ribs. I guess they had no tooling to do this step. The completed spar took me about 4 hours to construct.
I also used the spray adhesive method of cutting the patterns from the plans and adhering  them to the wood provided. It worked ok, but the adhesive in the Scotch 77 stuck a little too good and resisted pealing off when I was finished.
Also, the other day I fired up my new Norvel .061 Big Mig. Glad I followed the directions provided and removed the back plate and head to soak engine in gasoline. I found bits of aluminum floating in the gas at the bottom of the container. I mixed up some 15% fuel 1/2 Castor 1/2 Klotz Synthetic . She fired up and I ran about 2oz thru her. It was too cold to stay outside any longer. I'll keep you posted on the Pathfinder build and stuff about the engine.....Cheers,Skip

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #121 on: January 14, 2019, 09:42:55 PM »
  Hi Skip;
     3M77 is more of a permanent contact adhesive. 3M also makes some stuff called Spray Mount Adhesive that is basically post-it-note adhesive, and will peel off easily and leave almost no residue. Good old fashioned rubber cement works well also for applying a pattern and will peel off, and it it is reluctant some acetone will help turn things loose.
    If you got the Big Mig to fire up right away, they must be making them a bit looser at the new company. The instructions for the original versions called for removing the head, add a few drops of fuel, and pull the engine through with the spring starter a certain number of times and then repeat until the engine frees up and free wheels off the spring starter. For the engines we used at KidVenture, Art Johnson found that instead of using the spring starter, as small 1/2A electric starter speeded things up quite a bit. Put in a few drops of fuel and hit it with the starter for abou 10 to 15 seconds, flush with fuel and repeat as needed. We put countless hours on some of those engines and I think in normal use a person might not wear one out. I have the 1/2A Pathfinder here in the stack for one of these days also and will watch for you impressions  of it.
   Type at you later,
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Online Paul Smith

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2019, 06:06:21 AM »
I built a Brodak 1/2A Pathfinder from plans.  Yeah, it's a lot work for a 1/2A.

If I did it again I would dispense with the half ribs and just sheet the leading edge back to the spar: less work, more strength and a better airfoil.
Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #123 on: January 18, 2019, 12:51:19 PM »
Hey Paul and Dan I've been away for a few days now with no way to respond to your posts.
Dan, regarding the engine, Ken Cook our local 1/2A guru ran me thru the "pre running" of the Big Mig. I followed his directions closely and the engine was just fine. I do have an old "Astro Flight" 1/2A geared starter which is just the ticket for the small engines. I did spin her up with the starter with the head and back plate removed to run her in a bit. I also let her soak in castor overnight. I'm wondering how long she's going to run on the 1.5 oz tank I have. We're in the throws of winter here and have not had a chance to really break it in.

Paul I may take your advice and sheet the leading edge with some nice 1/32 balsa I've got sitting in my wood box.. So how did your Pathfinder fly?........cheers,PhillySkip

Offline Mark Mc

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Re: 1/2A Brodak Pathfinder Build Started,New Norvel 061 Big Mig
« Reply #124 on: January 18, 2019, 03:11:06 PM »
Glad I followed the directions provided and removed the back plate and head to soak engine in gasoline. I found bits of aluminum floating in the gas at the bottom of the container. I mixed up some 15% fuel 1/2 Castor 1/2 Klotz Synthetic . She fired up and I ran about 2oz thru her. It was too cold to stay outside any longer. I'll keep you posted on the Pathfinder build and stuff about the engine.....Cheers,Skip

I don't remember reading this instruction.  Can anyone amplify?

Mark

Offline Target

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #125 on: January 18, 2019, 06:56:14 PM »
Skip-according to a guy that ran one here in the west,  a big mig .049 will run 5+ minutes on 1oz. I think he was running 10% nitro, not sure. I'd guess your 1.5oz tank will last you a whole pattern on 20%, but i don't have experience to back that up.
I'll be interested in your findings. My 1/2A kits and .061 NVs are whispering to me.
Good luck,
Target
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #126 on: January 18, 2019, 07:29:07 PM »
The engine will not require more than 1 oz of fuel to do the pattern.

The Baby Pathfinder design is outstanding as is. Don’t screw around trying to improve it. You will only make it less of a star than it is. No it is not my design.  D>K
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2019, 06:18:29 AM »
At present I've got the Big Mig 061 in my RSM Pinto (baby Oriental) I'd love to take it out to fly it but can't get any flying buddies to brave the cold with me to give me a hand launch!

Regarding the Pathfinder I've got all of the 1/2 ribs in there so I'll build it per plans.

Does anyone have any experience with the Robart 1/2A Super Pumper with these small jobs?

Target....go for it!

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #128 on: January 21, 2019, 07:14:01 PM »
I did get a chance for one flight on the Big Mig 061 in my Pinto. The engine ran very well but would go rich (but not quit) on inverted. Fuel tank is too low. Anyway on 42' lines the plane was too fast and drilling me into the ground.I couldn't wait for it to run out of fuel. I'm certain that on the Pathfinder I'll need to start with lines of about 50' to slow this thing down. Any thoughts? BTW I was flying with a 5.5 x4 black prop. Didn't have anything else to play with....Skip

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #129 on: January 21, 2019, 07:18:42 PM »
I did get a chance for one flight on the Big Mig 061 in my Pinto. The engine ran very well but would go rich (but not quit) on inverted. Fuel tank is too low. Anyway on 42' lines the plane was too fast and drilling me into the ground.I couldn't wait for it to run out of fuel. I'm certain that on the Pathfinder I'll need to start with lines of about 50' to slow this thing down. Any thoughts? BTW I was flying with a 5.5 x4 black prop. Didn't have anything else to play with....Skip

APC sells a 6x2 which I have run on a hot Cox product engine.  It was nice to get a stunt-like run.  It might be worth trying on your Big Mig.  You might also try a 6x3; I'd assume off the bat it would be too much for a Big Mig 049, but may do for a 061.  I'd be tempted to try to de-pitch a 7x3 if I were crazy.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #130 on: January 21, 2019, 10:19:14 PM »
 [make a carbon 6/2 and a 7/2 that I run on my cyclon ,061 on my pond racer scale ship
rad racer

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2019, 03:14:47 AM »
             Skip, I made mention of this several times in my e-mails not to use prop pitches in excess of 3. In addition, I listed the proper APC sizes.

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2019, 12:42:18 PM »
Ken on the day of the test flight I didn't have any other props available that were in the diameter and pitch that you mentioned. I'll get the right stuff....Skip

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2019, 03:15:33 PM »
             Are twins allowed in this event?

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #134 on: January 30, 2019, 09:13:24 AM »
 two .020's would be ok
rad racer

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2019, 02:40:36 PM »
Wouldn’t three .020s be legal?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2019, 03:05:30 PM »
          So I take it that's a no in .049 displacement.

Offline bob whitney

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2019, 04:44:00 PM »
actually .061
rad racer

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #138 on: February 11, 2019, 08:49:25 AM »
Where are the rules posted?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
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Offline goozgog

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #139 on: February 11, 2019, 02:29:02 PM »
Good question Larry.

  I want to know if Spectra line will be allowed. 

  I'm considering entering this event if I can
get a decent engine run together.

My usual mistake is getting distracted from
serious stunt by anything fun.
 <=
Keith Morgan

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #140 on: February 11, 2019, 05:33:27 PM »
The rules were posted on the main forum page a while back.

Offline goozgog

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Re: 1/2 A stunt at Brodaks
« Reply #141 on: February 11, 2019, 06:59:56 PM »
Will Davis posted a short list of rules here.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/brodak-fly-in-2019/
Keith Morgan


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