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Author Topic: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In  (Read 21318 times)

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2016, 07:01:55 PM »
I have been following this closely as I've been considering competing. I interpret the rules as the only thing that needs to be stock is the case.
Swap out piston,liner, head, crank, bushing,needle valve, back plate , titanium thrust washer, etc.
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2016, 08:06:00 PM »
that is right, the case and the plain bearing need to be stock, other than that the needle valve, head, back plate, piston and liner can all be different. The only inspection John Moll does or any other CD is four things. We provide the fuel at our contests.

1) Using suction (no pressure systems)
2) Plain Bearing, Fox 35 Stunt engine
3) any airplane, but must have at least one wheel
4) .016 solid lines, 60 feet long

We had all sorts of combinations at the Ice-O-Lated contest but they all used suction fuel system with a  Fox 35 stunt engine, plain bearing. This is really a fun event because you are not restricted to a lot of specific rules. I love the fact that everybody's airplane are all different.

Hope this helps
Fred
Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
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Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2016, 12:59:41 PM »
I wanna go just to watch the hissy fits...... LL~

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2016, 01:27:02 PM »
Ken

Brother I am with you... I thought the rules were pretty well described and this thread has me thinking this one event will actually get into fist fights...considering how many are so fixated on everything

Commercially available props.... if I make a prop that gets 5 MPH better and offer it for sale only in Latvia, San Salvador, and Taiwan would this be allowed?


"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2016, 01:56:13 PM »
I hear ya Fred. I suppose that ZZ Prop and Wilks would be considered commercial. On the other hand, there are smaller cottage shops that sell props and I buy them, so I guess that means you cannot maker yourself that isn't sold.
The intent is something you can buy in a hobby shop, but today, our hobby shops are on line sites. The one and only hobby shop in this town has nothing I can use. Can you modify a "stock prop" ?

I had no idea St Louie was so complicated

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2016, 02:13:17 PM »
Ken and I are having fun....who would have thought such a fun and fairly simple event could get so mind blowingly complicated

You know you can take a Fox case...put a new bushing in it and then grove the ID for an O ring front and rear, then micro polish the crank ( grits up to 20,000 in the diamond paste world for Boy Scout axle polishing) ) for a very close finish and fit.... fill the area between the O rings with pure moly beads and get an extra 550 RPM

Do NOT forget my earlier suggestion of High Performance coatings... the ceramic piston dome and slippery skirting made a very significant difference on my 80 CI Harley engine
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2016, 03:20:09 PM »
I would like to take a poll from all competitors and non-competitors on their opinion of whether this engine meets the St Louis Fox 35 speed rules, which will be used at Brodak.
Al


Yes Al, I agree your motor complies!
Tom
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #57 on: March 21, 2016, 03:44:29 PM »
To be honest you are making this too complicated, buy a prop at the hobby shop or thru an on-line source that is available to everybody, and use a Fox 35 Stunt. The event is really simple I have no idea how it got so complicated on this forum.

A fox 35 stunt is a basic engine and really don't over think this, replace the head, back plate, needle valve and have some fun. Build an airplane, grab any airplane and fly it with a set of 60' solid lines. Our technical inspection here in St Louis lasts about 15 seconds and is a casual glance at the engine and lines.

As you can see by the last web page I posted on our club website there is a wide variety of models being flown. Most people are using the APC props.

If a CL scale guy who knows nothing about Speed can scratch build and fly in this event, it means it's as simple as it gets. I built the model without any plans put a Fox 35 on the nose and flew it. I had to get use to the fact that I didn't have a throttle to land under power!

Fred

Fred Cronenwett
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Model Aviation CL Scale columnist

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2016, 03:55:03 PM »
I just got around (due to decent weather) to running the latest mods on my Geezer-speed engine (la .25) N.W.B Proto. it did well and because it's comparable to a good Fox  stunt....I thought I would pass this along. I used a Hobby Lobby standard short plug will no side effects. It ran as well as the K&B, McCoy plug I also used. Peaked out at 20,500 so that was a nice bennie. The plugs are inexpensive and I will go get s'more!

K

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2016, 07:23:27 PM »
Ken,  what prop did you use for that 20K?
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2016, 09:40:28 AM »
the prop is a bench prop that is a Kelley 6 x 6.5. Martin Higgs and I have been making mods and comparing rpm with this prop.
It's right at expectations with the mods and bench prop. Wish I could turn the Whitney prop at that RPM.

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2016, 09:40:47 AM »
Ken, bolt that Fox you were showing off on a plane and send it to "The Brodak Shoot Out" along with Charlie Johnson, to see if it can keep pace with the heavy hitters y1
Al

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2016, 09:49:03 AM »
The identity of the heavy hitters will be revealed on June 15th.

This far, just big talkers.
Paul Smith

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2016, 04:03:01 PM »

Ken, bolt that Fox you were showing off on a plane and send it to "The Brodak Shoot Out" along with Charlie Johnson, to see if it can keep pace with the heavy hitters y1
Al
 
Al, I just showed the head chamber. I'd much rather use one of my la .25's but that's no fun. I don't really think I can make the contest, but think it's going to be one fun event. I've seen one of the heavy hitters and have already surrendered.

K
 
 
 

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2016, 11:27:25 AM »
(I've seen one of the heavy hitters and have already surrendered)
 I don't think so Ken. He is coming with strong entries in Fox Speed & Perky for the Brodak Shoot Out, its going to AWESOME.
Al

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2016, 12:40:18 PM »
you're spot on Al...this should be the better speed shoot out of the year. I'm having enough trouble getting my G-Speed engines sorted out (LA .25) Been testing all week and Marty Higgs "Frankenstein 2" has so far come to the top bench speeds. on 10% / 20% oil 50 syn, 50 caster.
APC 8 x 6 ........18,150 rpm
Bench prop.......21,700 rpm.
If it can be done with one of these slugs, it can be done with a Fox .35 stunt.

K

Offline bob whitney

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2016, 06:40:51 PM »


  HE WHO ???
rad racer

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2016, 11:22:37 AM »
This will be fun if half the people show up that posted.  I have a Goldberg Shoestring that will do about 60+mph.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2016, 12:47:51 PM »
Fred, a simple event gets complicated because someone is faster than me so I want to carefully go over the rules to see if there's any advantage I can take. So, there is the black letter which is tangible and there is common sense which varies.

Common sense says an engine is an engine because of it's crankcase but nowhere does it say you have to use the fox 35 crankcase it only has to be a plain bearing shaft. The rules say no combat engines but people are using combat engine parts, how many parts are you allowed? Common sense would say everything but the combat crankcase.

Also, it says only commercially available props. Common sense says no carbon fiber props but there have been many carbon fiber props commercially available for many years including APC.

It's just verbiage that can easily be fixed with a small re-write of the rules to close a few loop holes.

And to anyone that says I don't have skin in the game:



MM

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2016, 01:20:56 PM »
I am not sure how this one rule can get any easier, the motor must be a Fox 35 stunt.

The parts attached to the basic Fox 35 stunt engine can be modified per the rules so you can take advantage of that and so has everyone else. I put a hemi-head on and used a different needle valve. If anyone has used a different crank, piston or liner we have way of knowing, but the basic engine started out as a Fox 35 stunt with the plain bearing. The rules state that a Fox 35 combat motor can be used so that eliminates that engine crankcase.

1. The only engine for this event is a Fox 35 stunt engine, NO Fox 35 Combat motors, engine must run on suction, No pressure fuel systems, engine can be modified , but must remain plain bearing for the crankshaft. Needle valve can be changed.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2016, 01:51:47 PM »
Fred, brother you need to edit your post... you missed "no" an a "cannot"

I know what you mean but it is confusing
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline goozgog

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2016, 01:57:03 PM »
I'm sorry Fred but I'm still not getting this.

You say -  "  the motor must be a Fox 35 stunt."

Then you say - "The rules state that a Fox 35 combat motor can be used"

Huh?

Keith Morgan

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2016, 04:18:04 PM »
the rules say "NO fox 35 combat motors", in other words the Fox 35 combat motors cannot be used per the St Louis rules. When John Moll wrote the rules he put that in to make sure the Fox 35 Combat motors were not included on the list. Only the Fox 35 stunt was listed.

Fred

Fred Cronenwett
AMA CLSCALE7 - CL Scale
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2016, 05:18:24 PM »


  i dont see how it could be any simpler.  buy a Fox 35 Stunt case, leave it a bushing case and build an engine, put it in a Quiki Rat and go for it.
rad racer

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2016, 11:22:48 AM »
is the word "sandbagging" supposed to be hyphenated?

Offline C.T. Schaefer

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2016, 05:28:06 PM »
Giffy, Lookin' good!  See you in Middlesex in June.    TS

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2016, 06:57:57 PM »
Raising The STAKES  ;D

Offline Tom Luciano

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2016, 08:43:50 PM »
I was able to bore my case 30 over and put my Rossi 65 P&L in her. RPM hasn't changed but I'm swinging a 9x12 Grish! VD~

Tom
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #78 on: April 02, 2016, 10:57:22 AM »


  after looking ,looks like it left the case very thin, so am going with a Nelson pylon 40 AAC  P/S. my need to try and make a rod to hook everything together
rad racer

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2016, 12:36:40 PM »
"Gather round cats, and I'll tell you a story
bout how to become an all American boy"........

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2016, 04:14:54 PM »
Ken that's awesome. I was thinking of doing something like that but wasn't sure I should take it to that level. Is that a SuperTiger G21/35 rear valve crank? You must have ground the crank web down allot to get it to center on the cylinder bore. Nice work, what is the rpm on an APC 8-8 pylon prop?

MM
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 10:45:17 PM by Motorman »

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2016, 04:26:27 PM »
If anyone has used a different crank, piston or liner we have a way of knowing
Fred

that is right, the case and the plain bearing need to be stock,

It doesn't say in the rules the crankcase and the bearing need to be stock just that you have to use them.

Are there rules that aren't written down? What do you mean by "If anyone has used a different crank, piston or liner we have a way of knowing", was the intent to use ALL the Fox 35 stunt parts??

There are allot of guys fired up right now all with machine shops doing wonderful crazy things to this engine. Modified engines, that was intent right?

MM
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 10:07:06 PM by Motorman »

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2016, 05:15:25 PM »
once again, this was sent to me via a 3rd party mail....no idea who the builder is. VD~

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2016, 10:44:07 PM »
Ballpark, how fast do you have to be in the air to get a 105mph result from a standing start?


MM

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2016, 09:51:16 AM »
This engine isn't mine. I keep getting pictures from a 3rd party email ......whoever is making this thing is up to something fo-sho.

Ken

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2016, 10:07:56 AM »
Ballpark, how fast do you have to be in the air to get a 105mph result from a standing start?


MM
110mph

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2016, 12:05:29 PM »
In the early days of 36 Profile Carrier a good estimate was one second (or less)  added to the running high speed time.

Thus, if it actually does 19 (95 MPH) in the air it will do 20 (90 MPH) off the line.  What Al said.

Better for a light plane, A LOT worse for a heavy plane.

My Clown racers flown as Clown speed also only lose about 5 MPH off the line.
Paul Smith

Offline bob whitney

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2016, 07:39:45 PM »


  ready to go
rad racer

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2016, 09:25:46 AM »
Nice, I like the name. How big did you make the tank?


MM

Offline bob whitney

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2016, 09:53:25 AM »

 tank is a 1 oz coffin tank
rad racer

Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2016, 12:02:17 PM »
  I'm ready for a test flight  ;D
Al

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2016, 05:09:02 PM »
Love the retro look!
This is some shoot out

Offline Motorman

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Re: The last word on Fox 35 Stunt Speed at The 2016 Brodak Fly In
« Reply #92 on: May 05, 2016, 04:30:29 PM »
Ready to rock in south Jersey.



MM


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