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Author Topic: How about some "New" stunts?  (Read 2827 times)
Skip Chernoff
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« on: April 03, 2017, 06:39:28 PM »

Does anyone in the rule making community ever think of coming up with some "new" stunts just to keep things interesting?  How about a horizontal hourglass? a vertical square 8? upside down triangles? or any others you can think of.  Something to kick around...
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Mark Scarborough
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« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2017, 06:46:28 PM »

Skip, I used to think that too, the first year I was flying or so.
for the record this topic surfaces about once a year or so and generally creates some rather heated debate so  pull up your firesuit, it could get hot in here.

bottom line, I am a mid pack ish Expert, the pattern is still anything but boring to me.
I will summerize a couple thoughts that result from this oft discussed topic.
#1  Put together your proposed pattern ideas, sanction ( or not) and run a contest with your revised pattern and see ho0w it goes
#2 when you can do it perfect then it will be boring?
#3 if you change the pattern, then everything before you change it is no longer relevant, including the walker cup

#4, its an event based on tradition, history and as such should stay the way it is, it is successful because it is traditional and consistant year to year.
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« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2017, 07:07:15 PM »

Mark I get all of your points and understand the tradition involved.  With that said ,not everyone who flies stunt is interested in going to the Nats or  even cares about the Walker Cup. Sometimes you need to change things up just to keep those juices flowing.

 I fly intermediate and believe me, I don't have the present schedule of stunts "under control" ,but it would be fun to throw in something new or different to keep us on our toes ,right?  After a while it gets a little boring doing the same pattern over and over....Am I nuts or do others feel the same.Remember, I new around here...Thanks,PhillySkip






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« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2017, 10:25:21 PM »

well, I respect your thoughts , and as I said I wondered at one point myself.

HOWEVER, once you get to a certain point, throwing anything into the middle of the pattern will cause great grief at some point when you get messed up trying to remember which pattern you are flying, lol

as for me, like I said, gather up some friends, and set up a contest and see how it is recieved. thats how some subculture things start off. somebody tries it.
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« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2017, 10:37:16 PM »

To keep you on your "toes". The next contest you go to try flying in profile, then Old Time, and finish the day at the combat circles.  Oh yeah, try carrier for some added fun! The last time I tried OTS the same day as Pampa I got mixed up on the horizontal eights and had a "big" discussion on how the ots overhead is supposed to go,  but it was fun.
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« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2017, 11:19:45 PM »

Does anyone in the rule making community ever think of coming up with some "new" stunts just to keep things interesting?  How about a horizontal hourglass? a vertical square 8? upside down triangles? or any others you can think of.  Something to kick around...

After a while it gets a little boring doing the same pattern over and over...

Skip,  first, I applaud your enthusiasm.

Second, a comment on your comment that you are getting bored "doing the same pattern over and over..."  With that attitude, you will have difficulty progressing beyond the Intermediate level.

As Mark explained, this idea of additional maneuvers comes up every year or so on these forums.  You are showing that you might not fully understand the system

For your information, the "rule making community" is any AMA member.  Maybe you did not know that.  Any AMA member can propose any change to any event he/she can dream up.  (You do not need a rules change to change how a local contest is conducted.)

What it will come down to is for the AMA CL Aerobatics Contest Board to review any proposal and act on what they collectively believe is in the best interest of the event.  (Look it up, these are the 11 people who approve/disapprove whatever proposals are submitted during the two year rules change cycle)

I make no claim to speak for our Contest Board, but I doubt if this CL Aerobatics Contest Board will approve any change to the basic pattern until there is a well thought out change, that it is well tested, and shown that there is widespread acceptance for such a change.

If you are so enthusiastic for a change in the pattern, here is an outline of what you should do.  First, come up with some maneuvers that you think should be added to the pattern.  Then, establish criteria for how the new maneuvers are to be flown and judged.  Then, come up with a format about how this revised pattern is to be flown.  (Like establish a set pattern with the new maneuvers, or only announce the maneuvers to be flown at the beginning of the contest, or even have a free style event - these ideas have been discussed before.)  Then, help organize contests, not just in your area but in other regions as well to see what kind of reaction there is to your ideas.  You might find that some "adjustments" to the changes you propose should be made.  Run some more contests, refine the idea and if there is widespread support, make a formal proposal, and see what happens.  (Your crusade just might take more than the 5 years you have allotted yourself to master this event, the same event you are now suggesting that needs to be changed.)  If you think that a change is necessary and since you are really a part of the "rule making community", then submit your proposal with the supporting discussion of why the event will be improved.

Now, before you go off and feel that you have been somehow belittled or that I am talking down to you, let me explain something  that might give you some insight about this CL Precision Aerobatic event.  The pattern that we fly now in 2017 was established in the AMA rulebook in 1960.  Other than "refinements" over the years in maneuver descriptions and diagrams and in contest procedures, the pattern has been unchanged.  The FAI adopted our AMA pattern in the mid 60's, though with slightly different maneuver descriptions, and has been conducting the World Championships with the CL Aerobatics event (F2B) every two years since.  Most of the world uses this same AMA/FAI pattern.  About 10 years ago, the FAI went through a massive update to the FAI F2B rules, but the basic pattern remains the same.  You might want to dwell and wonder if there are good reasons why there has been no change to the pattern.  This pattern seems to have satisfied, now several generations, of competition fliers worldwide.

Then, please consider another point of view.  Currently, our pattern is made up with various maneuvers, all defined by loops of different sizes, turns, great circle paths, altitudes, and location of those maneuvers.  Almost any maneuver that could be described as "new" will still consist of different combinations of those same loops, great circle paths, altitudes, turns and locations.  New maneuvers can be devised that might reintroduce enforcing the 5 foot radius corners however that could be done, 30 degree loops, and such that would require models with entirely different performance capabilities.  That would be a new event altogether.

If you want to have a contest where different maneuvers are flown, please do it and have fun.  It does not take a rules change to do so. If it works, and you can show that it is a good thing to change the event, then please let us know.  I am sure the CL Aerobatics Contest Board would be seriously interested.  (This process was followed that led to the adoption of the Skill Classes in our AMA rulebook.)

Keith
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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2017, 10:52:03 AM »

Since we are all getting "up there in age" the complaint I hear most is doing the overhead eight.  Looking up and trying to maintain balance is the issue.  I try to stay in good shape but at times I find myself losing my balance doing this maneuver.  Also, it is difficult for me, and maybe others, since I have no reference point.  Looking up at a nearly constant background gives me nothing to work with.  If anyone else has advice here on doing this maneuver tell me what you do.

My thoughts on this:  Since we have both inside and outside loops (square and round), inside triangles but no outside triangles, I would vote for eliminating the overhead eight and replace it with outside triangles.  I am not in favor of a vertical square eight.  I heard that the vertical square eight maneuver was proposed many years ago, about the time the current pattern was adopted, but never approved.  True or not? 

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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2017, 11:07:05 AM »

For your information, the "rule making community" is any AMA member.  Maybe you did not know that.  Any AMA member can propose any change to any event he/she can dream up.  (You do not need a rules change to change how a local contest is conducted.)

And from there it goes to the district reps, who at least in the control line community are generally approachable guys who are dedicated to the sport.  It's not people hiding behind locked doors -- you can look up your district rep on the AMA web site, and you should see him at contests to talk to.
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2017, 11:08:35 AM »

If you want to try it, I suggest that you do something as a fun-fly event.  Maybe it'll go somewhere (3D RC aerobatics came out of fun fly rules in the 80's), maybe it won't.
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 12:17:37 PM »

As has been stated don't mess with something that has been in affect for ages.  If you want to try something new do it yourself by holding a fun fly.  Like the Giant Scale Aerobatic people they have a set pattern for qualifying rounds and finish up with a pattern of the pilots choice or an unknown sequence the event director chooses.   I find that when I go practice that after about three or four patterns I would start losing concentration.   So what did I do.  After the third pattern I told my flying partner I was going to take a break.   Went to the vehicle and pulled out a Bi-Slob.   Have you heard of that one?   Fired up the old Fox 35 Stunt and started playing.  Glad I listened to Jim Lee about using a 3 ounce tank.  By the time the engine quit I was exhausted.  15 minute break and put up my stunt plane and was told that was best pattern of the day.

So see what you can come up with and get support to do it and let us know.   I remember a few years back when some one else was going to have another class for those that have placed in top 5 in NATS competition over the years with w different pattern.  Guess he couldn't get support to do it and never heard of it again.

Now if you can consistently score a perfect score each and every flight in front judges I myself might listen to you. Devil  Got to get another cup of coffee. Coffee
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2017, 03:54:13 PM »

Hey Skip!  You ought to come "play" with me and my gang  Grin. Trust me, I'm a 68 year old Beginner Stunt duffer and I'm so far from being able to do the Intermediate stuff at a competition level it's silly. But our little group of 6 bought into the idea of holding a contest (amongst our selves) where we had a bag of individual "flash cards" of all the maneuvers (beginner through advanced). Each contestant drew three cards and had to perform those three maneuvers.  Of course if the pilot drew, say, a cloverleaf, vertical eight or even inverted flight and couldn't do it, no biggy .... he just drew another until he found one he could do!  He was then judged according to what he could do and how well it was done even if the three maneuvers were just takeoff, three level laps and landing.  When it comes to having fun, do what you can and forget the rest  Grin
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2017, 04:38:05 PM »

Keith you have me confused with another member of our forum who has talked about "mastering" this thing in five years. I have never stated that and know fully well that I will never master this sport/hobby. I'm just trying to have fun. Go back and read the posts and you'll see .........PhillySkip
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 05:02:57 PM »

Keith you have me confused with another member of our forum who has talked about "mastering" this thing in five years. I have never stated that and know fully well that I will never master this sport/hobby. I'm just trying to have fun. Go back and read the posts and you'll see .........PhillySkip

Skip,

My mistake.  I will fix the post.

Keith
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2017, 05:15:30 PM »

Skip, I used to think that too, the first year I was flying or so.
for the record this topic surfaces about once a year or so and generally creates some rather heated debate so  pull up your firesuit, it could get hot in here.

bottom line, I am a mid pack ish Expert, the pattern is still anything but boring to me.
I will summerize a couple thoughts that result from this oft discussed topic.
#1  Put together your proposed pattern ideas, sanction ( or not) and run a contest with your revised pattern and see ho0w it goes
#2 when you can do it perfect then it will be boring?
#3 if you change the pattern, then everything before you change it is no longer relevant, including the walker cup

#4, its an event based on tradition, history and as such should stay the way it is, it is successful because it is traditional and consistant year to year.


I'm so sorry.......

I you want to change the pattern do what Paul Walker did sometime ago. Start with the Clover End with the wingover.

OH Mark...from Saturday Night Live...."MORE COWBELL"
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2017, 05:21:34 PM »

All ,first thanks for responding. Hey....I'm relatively new around here so please forgive me for not knowing which topics( like the one I posted ) have been hashed out before. Those of you who follow our forum know that I'm very enthusiastic about our hobby/sport. I ask many questions and jump in when I have something positive to add to the discussion. I post pics of my projects, club activities, and fun stuff that we do. I enjoy when others do the same.What I'm getting at, is that we must be careful about being too "serious" about this stuff. The last thing we want to do is turn somebody off. There aren't too many of us left. Also we should not assume that because someone is new here that they are new to model airplane stuff.With that said , I've got a Club 40 R/C Pylon race to get ready for this weekend .....Cheers PhillySkip  
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Skip Chernoff
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 05:24:46 PM »

Keith,no problem. Peace,Skip
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 05:29:34 PM »

All ,first thanks for responding. Hey....I'm relatively new around here so please forgive me for not knowing which topics( like the one I posted ) have been hashed out before.


       Nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and think new stunts are worth looking at.  I think the devil has always been in the details. There are several ways to go, but my perference to start would be to define new maneuvers and then allow the contest organizers to choose from that list.

      Brett
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« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2017, 05:59:10 AM »

Personally,  I feel like they say about golf, let me know when you can consistently make a perfect score then we'll talk about changing the rules. Heh.

Joking aside,  there are some logistics to be dealt with.

Another new trick would add laps between that new trick and old tricks, which effects time. Then you would start looking at which old trick to dump... Like Jims suggested OH8 drop... I would think if anything would relieve boredom, it would be that we want to add challenges, not remove them.

Then there is the whole FAI thing, we would be even more out of step, and might make pilots even less inclined to try out for the team for inexperience with the other rules format.

Lastly, if I was to try adding anything to try at a local contest level for laughs, it would be a second hourglass. It would add no extra laps so really shouldnt impact event or run times,  all modern stunt planes would be capable, and it adds the challenge to the event of placing the second over the first.

All that said, go to the top of my post and re-read the golf analogy. :-)
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« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2017, 08:20:20 AM »

Personally,  I feel like they say about golf, let me know when you can consistently make a perfect score then we'll talk about changing the rules. Heh.

    I have said the same many times about stunt judges. When I fly a perfect flight, THEN, I can go complain about the judges.

    What many people don't realize is that even the very best, world-championship- and even Nationals-winning flights, have a pretty good number of obvious errors in them. And the better you get at it, the more mistakes you see. Casual observers and the "cheering sections"  usually can't see it, but the pilot sure can.

     Brett
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« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 09:53:36 AM »

       Nothing wrong with enthusiasm, and think new stunts are worth looking at.  I think the devil has always been in the details. There are several ways to go, but my perference to start would be to define new maneuvers and then allow the contest organizers to choose from that list.

Or draw them randomly from a list (for the whole day, not per contestant), perhaps from groupings by difficulty so you always get a mix of easy and hard maneuvers.

Since my biggest bug-a-boo is knowing what maneuver to do next this would be a pain, but then if we changed to this method I'd probably just strap a little clipboard to my left wrist and look at it between maneuvers.
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« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2017, 11:30:01 AM »

see it gets more complicated than this though, we are forgetting the judges need to know whats coming and how to judge it, the score sheets need changed,,

lots of collateral impact here
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« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 12:00:10 PM »

I've heard that PW ran a stunt contest many years ago at the Kent Boeing Space Center back lot. That's odd enough, but he also required that the standard pattern be flown backwards. I assume that meant that the sequence was reversed, so Clover first, and RWO last. It would be just silly to takeoff inverted, you know...   Coffee Steve
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« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2017, 12:06:41 PM »

For grins grab the diagrams of the pattern and follow them in reverse.   The clover would be coming over the top to do the first loop and exiting at at what would normally be the entry point.  The pattern in reverse is more complicated than you think. Stir the pot
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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2017, 12:18:17 PM »

see it gets more complicated than this though, we are forgetting the judges need to know whats coming and how to judge it, the score sheets need changed,,

lots of collateral impact here

Good point.  You could have a caller assisting the judges, but even then I think you'd want Yet Another Lap between maneuvers.
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2017, 05:50:39 PM »

Mark I get all of your points and understand the tradition involved.  With that said ,not everyone who flies stunt is interested in going to the Nats or  even cares about the Walker Cup. Sometimes you need to change things up just to keep those juices flowing.

 I fly intermediate and believe me, I don't have the present schedule of stunts "under control" ,but it would be fun to throw in something new or different to keep us on our toes ,right?  After a while it gets a little boring doing the same pattern over and over....Am I nuts or do others feel the same.Remember, I new around here...Thanks,PhillySkip


There's no reason to be bored!  Go ahead and fly all the different maneuvers you can come up with.  Something as simple as doing a climb to 45deg and a dive back down to 5ft 4 times in a lap is hard to do consistently and helps you learn where the ground is.  oftentimes you'll learn something that will help do the standard pattern better.  Another fun one is a "keyhole"-  square corner and vertical climb to 45deg.  another square corner immediately into into a round outside loop, the a square inside corner and another one back to level flight.  Like the hourglass, you only get one chance to make it look good.  There's no way to do multiples.
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« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 10:37:49 AM »

Since we are all getting "up there in age" the complaint I hear most is doing the overhead eight.  Looking up and trying to maintain balance is the issue.  I try to stay in good shape but at times I find myself losing my balance doing this maneuver.  Also, it is difficult for me, and maybe others, since I have no reference point.  Looking up at a nearly constant background gives me nothing to work with.  If anyone else has advice here on doing this maneuver tell me what you do.

My thoughts on this:  Since we have both inside and outside loops (square and round), inside triangles but no outside triangles, I would vote for eliminating the overhead eight and replace it with outside triangles.  I am not in favor of a vertical square eight.  I heard that the vertical square eight maneuver was proposed many years ago, about the time the current pattern was adopted, but never approved.  True or not?  


[/quote




Jim I see I'm way late seeing this thread and your post.  In re the issues with overheads,  last year I started to have a little of this myself.  During the winter I asked my doctor about it during a regular shakedown.  He said it was a certain type of vertigo that occurs when you put your head back and the muscles in the neck cut off blood flow to the brain.  He sent me for MRI to check it out and a couple thousand later found nothing amiss.  His only suggestion was aspirin to thin the blood and allow it to move a little easier.  Also things that open vessels and promote blood flow ( yeah like viagra or testosterone treatments ) can help some.  I'm not tellin'.....

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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2017, 04:30:22 PM »

Practice can help a lot dealing with vertigo. Try doing exercises that tend to induce vertigo under controlled conditions such as simply just turning around, loosening up your back through stretching and exercise so you can bend more back and less neck, and other physiotherapy.  So rather than get am MRI see a physical therapist.  As we get older it's not just vertigo, but sprucing up balance skills, strengthening muscles, etc.

I've heard from several reputable sources that some 50% of combat pilots experience vertigo during air combat maneuvering.  Just practice learning to ignore vertigo, even if you feel it, can help deal with it.  Part of the problem is that the pattern has only a couple brief moments where vertigo is likely, so it's hard to practice against it.
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2017, 05:01:45 PM »

Thanks for the advice Phil.  I'll work on getting the back more limber.  My early flying this year seems a little better but I still have to be careful of stance on the reverse wingover.  The overheads aren't bothering too much now.  Stunt is more work than it used to be....

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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2017, 05:08:44 PM »

Outside triangles, point down, are fun.  Dave Fitzgerald likes to do them to unwind his lines, because the tank doesn't see them as a cutoff loop.
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2017, 05:19:42 PM »

Outside triangles, point down, are fun.  Dave Fitzgerald likes to do them to unwind his lines, because the tank doesn't see them as a cutoff loop.

   He is copying Ted Fancher, who was the first I am aware of to do it.

       I do outside rounds, triangles, or pentagons depending on some factor whose basis is left to the reader.

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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2017, 04:38:40 PM »

  He is copying Ted Fancher, who was the first I am aware of to do it.

       I do outside rounds, triangles, or pentagons depending on some factor whose basis is left to the reader.

     Brett

There's a semi-interesting story about the genesis of the outside triangles post-pattern to, allegedly, unwind the lines.  Early in my competitive "career" I developed the habit of habitually flying outside squares for two reasons.  First to practice outside squares which were, at the time, one of my several less than perfect maneuvers and secondly to unwind the lines without inducing sustained g-forces that might draw the little remaining fuel away from the [hard tank] pick up tube and cause a premature flame out (cornered maneuvers have high G forces for a very short duration insufficient to empty the fuel line as long as any fuel remained whereas repeated round loops beg for such an inopportune incident).

It was northern California's late, great Senior Stunt Coach, Bill Fitzgerald (David's father), who opined that I might want to stop "practicing" outside squares with a near empty tank at the end of the flight in hopes of improving the "official" set performed while the fuel tank was still well more than half full of fuel.  Duuuuh, thought I.  Thence came the decision to do outside triangles rather than squares to unwind the lines since I couldn't, by so doing, screw up the official ones...of which there ain't none.

This foolish flyer's scores were soon enhanced appropriately and the outside triangles continue to flourish to this day...except for Brett and his outrageous outside multi-gons or whatever the heck they are.

Ted
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