Which came first?

[Mike Griffin]

What is the oldest form of model flying?  Free flight? Control Line?   

Mike

[Jim Kraft]

Free Flight, long before control line.

[Stew Robinson]

I'm pretty sure it was free flight. My father had a friend who flew gasoline powered free flight models in the late 1930s. He said it was fun to watch as the planes that took a long time to build and tune, fly away, never to be seen again, on their first full tank. I think he said that the engines came from Germany and were very expensive at at the time.

[Dave_Trible]

There were crude rubber powered free flight models flying in the late 1800s before Whitehead and the Wrights flew full scale.  A few of those models are in the AMA museum.  A couple single line 'pole flying' airplanes flew just prior to WWII.  Controline as we know it came right after the war.

Dave

[Bob Hunt]

About a million years ago Ork threw a rock, and so free flight was born. Ork's friend, Zork attached a rock to a string and swung it around his head, and so CL was born. So, to answer your question, free flight came first. Interestingly, Ork didn't have to register his rock with the FAA, but Zork did...

Bob Hunt

[mike londke]

 

About a million years ago Ork threw a rock, and so free flight was born. Ork's friend, Zork attached a rock to a string and swung it around his head, and so CL was born. So, to answer your question, free flight came first. Interestingly, Ork didn't have to register his rock with the FAA, but Zork did...

Bob Hunt

[Brett Buck]

What is the oldest form of model flying?  Free flight? Control Line?   

Mike

   Free flight by a mile. CL might be considered the last of the methods to be developed, although CL and RC very initial attempts were nearly simultaneous. RC was well-known as a goal the first time someone's FF gassie started heading into the ground from a slight trim mistake and was always considered the holy grail of modeling, right from the start of the gas era. CL arose mostly because it was some form of control that was achievable with the technology of the day.

    Brett

[Terry Caron]

FF by a long shot, but here's the origin of c/l flying:
https://www.modelaircraft.org/files/StClairOba.pdf

Terry

[Jim Kraft]

According to Marvin Denny, control line was born because of fear of rattlesnakes. He said he use to fly free flight in west Texas when one day a storm came up and he and his partner headed for the car. He said all the way through the field they were jumping over rattlers.

That is when he took up control line. True story related to me by Marvin himself. He even told me that it was a Brooklyn Dodger with a Forster 29 that he was flying that day. You just cannot make this stuff up.

Of course, Bob hunts account may be accurate also. That is what irritates me about control line. Some guys can fly the whole pattern with a  rock on a string, where I can have the best plane in the world and still look like a beginner. Someone said there may be talent involved.

Hey! Iv'e got talent. I can play Wildwood Flower on the guitar as good as anybody. Well, almost anybody.

[Mel Gray]

I recommend the book "Pioneers of Control Line Flying" by Charles Mackey as an informative book on this subject. It is available at the PAMPA web site.  Free Flight preceded Control Line by some years but the origins of round n' round were earlier than I had known before reading Charlie Mackey's  excellent volume.

Mel

[Tim Wescott]

As modeling pursuits -- what Brett said.

As research pursuits -- FF, then tethered "round the pole" flights, with RC probably happening simultaneous with hobby work.  I don't know if anyone tried something akin to control-line flying, because the general thinking in the scientific and technical community in the late 19th century was that control of the craft was unimportant -- everyone was trying to make free-flight planes that you could steer around a bit, and round-the-pole flying was mostly used to prove out engines and structures.

The really big contribution that the Wright Brothers made was to design from the ground up for controllability: there were other craft that could glide, or that could even have stayed in the air under their own power if only they could have stayed pointed in the right direction.  The Wright Brothers were the first ones to give the pilot enough control authority so that he was in charge.

I know the Wright did some kite experiments -- I don't know for a fact either way, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't do experiments with multi-line kites and controllability before they build the first Flyer.

[Jim Kraft]

I read a story in R/C Modeler years ago of how R/C got started. Can't remember the guys name but he used voice commands to fly his plane. He was for left and Haw was for right. One day he was flying his plane down main street in the little town he lived in and people began to laugh because of his antics. As they were laughing Haw Haw Haw his plane went into a spin. That was known as the first R/C interference. It has continued to this day.

[Brett Buck]

The really big contribution that the Wright Brothers made was to design from the ground up for controllability: there were other craft that could glide, or that could even have stayed in the air under their own power if only they could have stayed pointed in the right direction.  The Wright Brothers were the first ones to give the pilot enough control authority so that he was in charge.

     The first part was the most important-  the realization that you needed to control it, and, that you actually had to learn to be a pilot including practicing.  Before the Wright's demonstrations in France, the French were successfully becoming airborne and flying safe, brief flights with skidding turns using the "guided FF" concept, and the Wright's demonstrations blew them away.

  I would also note that until about the Wright Model B, their airplanes were essentially unstable in pitch and the Wrights just learned to fly them that way safely. Many others, including modern re-creators, typically can't manage to fly them for any more than a short hop followed by a flop-down.

    In fact, they had the same issues that many CL Stunt canard aficionados frequently miss - you can't put the CG aft where you might thing you want it without it also being unstable, and putting the CG where it needs to be obviates most of the purported value of the canard. The Model B had a sufficiently extended "canard moment" that they could put the CG where it needed to be for stability and still have sufficient control authority to keep the nose up.

    Brett

[Tim Wescott]

    In fact, they had the same issues that many CL Stunt canard aficionados frequently miss - you can't put the CG aft where you might thing you want it without it also being unstable, and putting the CG where it needs to be obviates most of the purported value of the canard. The Model B had a sufficiently extended "canard moment" that they could put the CG where it needed to be for stability and still have sufficient control authority to keep the nose up.

Eh, canards are good for stunt because they look peculiar.  I mean, what more could you want?

Here's a good discussion on the limitations of canard surfaces in model aircraft (with some overlap to general aviation) -- it 'splains why Rutans have long skinny wings in front, among other things: http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/canard.html.

I think that most, if not all, of the fancy-dancy jet fighters with canard surfaces are aerodynamically unstable, or at least neutrally stable, with fancy-dancy fly-by-wire systems so that humans can pilot them successfully.  I used to work for a guy who helped to write the fly-by-wire software in the Saab that crashed at an airshow one year due to errors in the fly-by wire.  His team was thought to be responsible for the error that helped it to crash (there was considerable arrogance on the part of the guy in the cockpit, too, apparently*).  He was quite relieved when it was found that they had faithfully duplicated the control law they were asked to duplicate, and that it was the controls guy who had slipped a digit in his calculations.

Apologies if I'm pulling the thread off topic.

* It was the VP of engineering or some such, who hadn't flown the aircraft before but who pulled rank to do it over the objections of the regular test pilot, who'd been babying it to successful landings.  To his credit, he did manage to get it shut down before it hurt anyone other than himself.

[Dennis Adamisin]

What is the oldest form of model flying?  Free flight? Control Line?   

Mike

FF pre-dates CL and (believe or not) at the NATs, RC pre-dates CL

That's right we are the new kids on the block!

[Jim Kraft]

Many of the early control line planes were what they called goats. They were free flights converted to control line. Floyd Carter has one. I think if I remember right that St Louis had an event for these to see how slow one could fly.

[FLOYD CARTER]

During WWII, very few C/L model kits were available.  Most of the few were for speed or just for going around in a gentle circle.  It was common to adapt a free flight plane for C/L.

This is a 1937 Buccaneer free flight.  Clipped wing and bellcrank added.  Super Cyke 65 on spark ignition.  It putts around at 1/4 throttle.

I flew this once at VSC during the lunch break.

Floyd

[George]

I'm surprised no one mentioned HLG's...which was probably the earliest form of FF.

George

[Jim Kraft]

Hey Floyd; Looks like a fun and relaxing way to fly on a Sunday afternoon. A break from flying the pattern. It just reeks old time. Super Cykes are just pretty darn good runners.

[James Lee]

Well, then, let's consider Nikola Tesla, who demonstrated a full house radio controlled submarine to standing room only crowds in Madison Square Garden in the late 1800's....
Of Course, it was a spark generator transmitter and blanked out every radio on the east coast, but there were no other radios on the east coast...   
Control Line is so advanced, it took many more years to be invented....     
Jim

[david beazley]

Obviously the chicken came first, Oh wait, sorry wrong argument! 

[Dick Pacini]

About a million years ago Ork threw a rock, and so free flight was born. Ork's friend, Zork attached a rock to a string and swung it around his head, and so CL was born. So, to answer your question, free flight came first. Interestingly, Ork didn't have to register his rock with the FAA, but Zork did...

Bob Hunt

And Ork's rock was built with Hunt's "Lost sand" method.

[Dan McEntee]

    Free flight, as some one has pointed out, has been around long before powered manned flight. Almost as soon as the Wright's patented their invention, I think it was the Ideal company had basics kits of rubber models available. Early model contests were almost entirely f/f rubber, and then the small gas powered engines were produced by Mr. Brown and others that made new rules and classes necessary. The Good brothers were instrumental in advancing the R/C aspect of the hobby along with a gentleman named Howard McEntee. I still get a kick out of seeing that name in magazines and books! Just never found out for sure if we are related. Tom Runge of Ace R/C assured me once that we both did indeed pronounce our last names the same. Jim Walker came along and help refine the R/C portion and was known for demonstrating his prowess with an R/C lawn mower at the NATS. There was a special trophy for the R/C event that was to be retired when it was won for the third time by the same contestant and Jim Walker did just that in the third year it was in existence. We all know of Jim Walker's skills with the Fireball, of course. Walker held a patent of the bell crank and push rod system of controlling a model in flight along with the term "U-Control" and if you used that system in a kit or plan presentation of a C/L model, he was awarded a royalty. This suit was challenged in court by the Cox brothers in the mid 1950's when they proved that the use of the bell crank and push rod system was in common use around the world a the time Walker applied for his patent. Cox prevailed in the court battle and with in a year or so, Jim Walker had passed away, with some saying that losing the court battle was more than he could bear and he died of a broken heart, so to speak. A lot more detail can be found in Dave Thornburg's book, "Do You Speak Model Airplane" and in Charles Mackey's book. Both are excellent reads and should be required reading!
   Type at you later,
  Dan (I like to think I'm related to Howard) McEntee

[Jim Kraft]

I liked the part in Dave's book where he said "flying a 60 spark ignition control line plane was about all the exercise a person needed for the day" Only those that fly them understand that statement.

[Robert Dible]

    There was a special trophy for the R/C event that was to be retired when it was won for the third time by the same contestant and Jim Walker did just that in the third year it was in existence.

There was such a trophy, and the Good Brothers and Jim Walker were trying to win it.  Both were tied at the end of the deciding contest, but in the end, the Good's won it.

During the war, hobbyist RC was prohibited.  Walker built a sound controlled glider that had a pair of speaker cones configured to operate the rudder.  So the story in this thread of haw and hee (mule commands), has some historical basis.