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Author Topic: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges  (Read 5154 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« on: October 14, 2015, 06:22:40 AM »
Hello,
I heard that UltraLite, Monocote or probably any of such covering materials can be used for hinges.
If this can be done reasonably easily, the hinge lines will be sealed and the bending resistance and weight of such hinges will be very small.

I can imagine that a 25" long strip of, say, U-Lite about 1" wide, is carefully pushed into the thin slot cut along the trailing edge.

What I would like to know is:
1. How to activate the glue for this strip to stay in place?
2. How to attach the flap or the elevator to the 0.5" width of this strip that sticks outside of the wing or horizontal stabilizer?

Perhaps the best way is to build the trailing edge in two halves, glue the first half to the ribs, then use the iron to attach the U-Lite stripe to this half and, finally, glue the other half of the trailing edge to the ribs, squeezing the U-Lite stripe.

The strength of such hinges should be sufficient for flaps and elevator to stay in place but the gap between wings and horizontal stabilizer trailing edges and the leading edges of flaps and elevator should be as small as possible, otherwise the steering surfaces will move slightly up and down as such hinges do not have the capacity to resist shear.

Your comments, suggestions and friendly critique is always appreciated.
Regards,
Matt

 

Offline John McFayden

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 06:45:12 AM »
Try this link. It explains very well how it is typically done.

http://www.builtrightflyright.com/MiscHelpPgs/Monokotehinges.htm


John McFayden

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 11:41:01 AM »
Hi John,
Thank you for the link but this well known, "classical" method in which the gaps between wings and horizontal stabilizer and moving control surfaces still exists.

The method I have tried to describe allows for sealing these gaps.

Regards,
Matt


Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 12:14:57 PM »
I think that you have not looked at the complete sequence of pictures in Walt's pictorial. The hinge line is completely sealed with the application of a strip ironed onto the tops and bottoms of the two surfaces.
I still use the method but now use Dacron hinges with the appropriate Ultracote strips to completely seal the hinge line and blend perfectly with the color of the model.
If painting the model then a strip of dacron on the top and bottom is just as effective.
If you do not wish to do the whole procedure then it is easy to apply enough hinges along the hinge line to have no gap. I'll show a picture of a Brodak Zero done with Walt Umlands described method.

Dennis

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 02:47:29 PM »
Hi Dennis,
There is a lot of "plastic" used to make hinges and to seal the gaps in the Walt's method.
I wonder if somebody ever weighted this added material and what the weight penalty is for, say, full size stunt model.

This what I described uses only a single stripe of "plastic" that works as one continuous hinge and the gap sealer for each moving control surface.
Will this single stripe survive the flight loads?

Perhaps somebody tried this before...?
Thanks,
M

Offline dennis lipsett

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 03:23:15 PM »
Matt,

A lot of years ago it was originally tried in R/C. The problem is that it has no rigidity using the strips lengthwise. The elevator has the capability to shift and twist. Another consideration is that you must keep about 3/32 space between the elevator and stab for the surfaces to flex. Also, you only have a very small perhaps 1/16 inch of each side strip actually sealed together. It was abandoned as fast as it was tried.
As to weight. how heavy to you thing the stuff (Ultrakote) is. It's considerably lighter than the 6/8 hinges and glue required to hinge the surface. how durable is it I don't know, but mine have literally gone years with no problems. That said no expert flyer would use it as it is much too plebian and  obvious to the trained eye I'm still trying to figure out how much material do you think it takes to make these hinges, I've done it with scrap pieces left over from the covering.

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 06:52:07 PM »
Hi Dennis,
I did not consider the lengthwise rigidity.
This kills the idea.
Best Regards,
Matt

Offline Bill Burton

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 08:42:34 PM »
Hi Dennis,
I did not consider the lengthwise rigidity.
This kills the idea.
Best Regards,
Matt

Matt there is another way if you are wanting a continueous hinge line.  On a elevator only model, laminate a ribbon between the stab and elevator which are two laminated pieces.  Let's just say you are building a Ringmaster which uses a 3/16 thick stab and elevator, cut two exact pieces for the stab and elevator out of 3/32 balsa. You will have 4 pieces total, two for the stab and two for the elevator. Take a 1" wide piece of white satin ribbon the length of the stab and use a child's crayon and draw a line right down the center of it.  The purpose of this is to keep the epoxy from migrating across the ribbon and resulting in a stiff hinge.  Apply the epoxy to the inside surface of the stab and/or elevator and lay the ribbon in the epoxy with half of it hanging over.  Be care full to keep the center of the ribbon out of the epoxy.  Use your finger to saturate the glue through th ribbon.  Lay the other piece on top and line them up.  Do the same for the other half.  Make sure you have at least 1/32 gap between he stab and elevator.  Weight the pieces down on a flat surface.  You now hav a continueous ribbon hinge with no gap.  The same thing can be done with flaps and then attached to the trailing edge of the wing.

Hope this helped.

BB

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 04:45:24 AM »
Hi Bill,
Will satin ribbon provide the lengthwise rigidity that Dennis wrote about?
Nice trick with crayon but using epoxy on the entire length of the elevator or/and flaps will add considerable weight.

Thanks,
Matt

Offline Bill Burton

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 05:18:13 AM »
No problem with rigidity and use whatever light glue you want.

Bill

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2015, 12:34:30 PM »
Hey guys. I made a video on how i do monokote hinges. I hope this helps any one trying this for the first time.


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2015, 06:37:19 PM »
Very nice video.   Myself I clamp the surfaces together with strips o wood to hold alignment,  It just makes it easier for me.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2015, 08:59:36 PM »
Has anyone tried this style hinge without a bevel or rounding?
Believe it or not, it works, and leaves the surfaces butted against one another when in neutral.
The caveat is, the overlap monocote has to be the exact width of the surface thicknesses.
Dane, please try a mock up on some 1/4" planks.
When pushed, the hinge flexes at one side of the surface, and when pulled, the other side. Its pretty amazing.
R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 09:23:20 PM »
Has anyone tried this style hinge without a bevel or rounding?
Believe it or not, it works, and leaves the surfaces butted against one another when in neutral.
The caveat is, the overlap monocote has to be the exact width of the surface thicknesses.
Dane, please try a mock up on some 1/4" planks.
When pushed, the hinge flexes at one side of the surface, and when pulled, the other side. Its pretty amazing.
R,
Chris

I have actually tried that on 2 15 sized airplanes and it worked great. I have some material left over I can do that if anybody would like to see it.

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2015, 09:34:08 PM »
Did you have any trouble in the execution of the covering turning the sharp 90° corner, and sticking properly?
It may be a good place for some balsaloc, or stix-it or other film adhesive, I'm thinking/wondering.
Thanks.
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2015, 10:39:41 PM »
to answer your question no and no.I don't like to say this in an open forum, and probably should be best to start a different thread in painting and finishing, however I have never used any sort of Monokote adhesive aids. even though these hinges are adhered properly, the top coat is going to be what holds them down. I'm sure there are many arguments to that, but I have a lot of experience in monokote, and mine don't come undone...  y1

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2015, 05:28:09 AM »
Fair enough. Thanks.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2015, 10:03:42 AM »
I hope that didnt sound snarky, im not that kinda guy. I'm certainly no expert, but I have been getting some really nice results for a long time. mostly if I can help beginners or guys that are not familiar with iron on material, that would be a wonderful part to this hobby for me.

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2015, 05:11:28 PM »
No worries at all, Dane. It was early and I was just about to drive to work.
You're capable of helping more than just beginners, and even though I'm new to C/L, so am I (I have a trick or two up my sleeve from other facets of model building and flying).
I absolutely LOVE sharing info. One thing that never changes, is that there is, and always will be, someone that knows more than us, and someone that knows less than all of us, in this hobby. Teaching, and learning, is guaranteed, if one has an open mind.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2015, 12:33:44 AM by Chris Behm »
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2015, 12:25:06 AM »
Has anyone tried this style hinge without a bevel or rounding?
Believe it or not, it works, and leaves the surfaces butted against one another when in neutral.
The caveat is, the overlap monocote has to be the exact width of the surface thicknesses.
Dane, please try a mock up on some 1/4" planks.
When pushed, the hinge flexes at one side of the surface, and when pulled, the other side. Its pretty amazing.
R,
Chris

Here's some pics (i think ) that illustrate the fact that the surfaces need not be round. It works just fine this way. Plus I'm trying to hurry the h3(( up so i can build my own plane. This is a butterfly powered glider for a good friend who's moving. Oh, and this is micro lite film. Real pain to do hinges cuz it sticks to itself very well without the heat! Lol

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2015, 11:06:56 AM »
Awesome, Dane!
Thanks for going the extra mile and posting the pictures, too.

I'm thinking this technique will not be too usable for wing/flap hinging, or even stab/elevator hinging, if the fixed surface fits into a slot in the fuse, as many do. Otherwise, a slot will need extension for the moving surfaces to slide through.
But any construction where the fixed surface mates to an open structure, its should be good to go and would eliminate the gap when the surface is at neutral. Might be good for starting a conversation with someone!

I'm in the beginning of a divorce, and also a subsequent home remodel, so my building has been put off. When the dust settles, I'll be getting back to building (and covering) my mini-stuka, then either a Thunderbird 2 or the Stiletto 660. I'll be using some of your fine tips on covering for any and all of them. Thanks!
Happy Thanksgiving from west.

R,
Chris

 
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2015, 11:54:18 AM »
Thanks Chris. I thought you might like this being a sail plane man. I agree with you on the application concerns. I have done many a Monokote hinge, but its always on profiles, or wide open structures. I wonder how it would work in a flap situation? Here's how the stab sits on this fuse. The butterfly is just a great big trainer! It's actually a fun build.

Sorry to hear about the divorce. I'm on the tail end of mine. Got a case management hearing next month. My building was non existent for most of this year. But, posting stuff like this has helped me get back into it with all the positive feedback

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2015, 12:59:23 PM »
I'll have to adopt you as my LV brother then Dane....
I'm OK, just a little annoyed and I in the mean time am building vicariously through your posts, so, keep on building, Bro!

R,
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2015, 05:39:39 PM »
Thanks bro, do you ever fly at whittier narrows recreation area? I've been to a few contests there. I'll be back there Dec 5 and 6.

So as someone asked, when you do the Monokote hinges on bare wood, you're left with alternating bare wood. So on regular Monokote jobs, i would have cut a pinstripe the same thickness of the parts and adhered it to the hinge area first. This micro lite is too sticky. So after the hinges are on, i make interlocking tabs on the sheet to cover the surface. The tabs cover any bare wood. The pattern is just alternated from top to bottom.
 Also, the hinges should ( solely based on my opinion) start on both ends and work toward the center. In this case, the center hinge is 1/8" thinner than the others. That way it looks like a perfect pattern and not so complicated on the hinge width math.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2015, 05:45:41 PM »
"Great" Dane,

I can't believe the detailed work you do with iron on materials.  H^^

You could give classes.  LL~

White is my favorite iron on material color.  ;D

Please Post more photos of progress!

Charles
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Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 09:11:04 AM »
Thanks bro, do you ever fly at whittier narrows recreation area? I've been to a few contests there. I'll be back there Dec 5 and 6.


The only place I have flown C/L is so far, at Whittier (first season flying C/L for me). I fly with Don Repp, Norm Furutani, John Wright, and the like on Fridays, when I get my alternating Friday off from work.
I'm scheduled to be offshore Dec 4-6 as of now, but if not, I'll come and hang out on either the 5th or 6th when you are there.
Haven't seen a contest yet. John keeps urging me to learn the beginner pattern and fly in one. I likely will eventually.
I guess I better learn the pattern then.

Keep up the great pictorial posts. I need the building stimulus!

R,
Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2015, 04:33:03 PM »
So this one is a bit different. Actual Monokote, instead of that pesky micro lite... Lol. I actually love micro lite. Just slightly different handling methods needed.
 So the frame is outlined all the way in yellow, so i can use clear monokote to cover the whole piece. The hinge material was cut at 1.125. Then cut in half at .5625". Flip over one piece and over lap exactly .25" this way the over lap is exactly the width off the hinged surface

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2015, 04:40:01 PM »
I think i can only do 4 pics.
So i cut these hinges at 0.5". The smaller the surface, the narrower the hinge should be. That way you get a lot of hinges. Place them on so the over lap of the hinge is lined up with the surface hinge line (pic 2). Alternate sticky side left, then right, then left.... All the way down.

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2015, 04:42:46 PM »
Then iron down the hinges. And cover as normal.

Chris, the contest in dec is speed and combat. Come on out if you're on shore!

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2015, 07:09:55 PM »
Dane, you are such a craftsman! Loving the detailed hinge work.

I will be at Whittier on the 4th, to fun fly with my buddies that are Friday regulars, but I have to be crewed up and offshore Sat and Sunday (and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and both days of the following weekend, of course!), so can't make the contest days.
If you are there a day early, Friday, I'll see you then.
I'm thinking some of the Combat guys I have met that are locals will probably be practicing Friday (Chuck R, Russ, Etc) as they sometimes do there.

I need to get back to building my 1/2A Stuka, and use some of your hinging high tech on it! Probably I will go gapless on the stab as discussed, but the flaps will need to be hinged after the wing is mounted in the fuse, so it may get a more traditional treatment.

R,
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 07:19:29 PM »
Heck yes! I'm gonna be there Friday, hopefully fly some slow combat with some guys. See you there!
Thanks for the kind words. Remember, if you mount your wing, cut the hinges ( regardless of the style) before covering. Otherwise you get wood particles inside your covering.... Lol. Ask me how i know...  HB~>

Offline Target

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Re: UltraLite or/and Monocote hinges
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2015, 11:14:49 PM »
That sounds like solid advice. Thanks!
See you in a week then.
R,
Chris
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Chris
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