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Author Topic: Twin Junar XL's are done!  (Read 12145 times)

Offline Chris_Rud

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Twin Junar XL's are done!
« on: May 17, 2016, 06:30:51 PM »
Twin Junar XL's are done and flying. The take apart has just under 100 flights and the new one has 2. Heading to the Werwage stunt ranch tomorrow to get the new one trimmed. Thought it was 55.8 oz but I forgot the tip weight so it's actually 56.4oz. It was fun building the two together. Posted these pics on facebook but realize not everyone is on facebook.  ;D  getting excited for the NATS!!!! Thanks Sina for the paint design!

Offline peabody

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2016, 06:41:03 PM »
Cool beans Chris!

Offline Bill Smith

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2016, 06:43:14 PM »
they are done too soon. You will have them worn out before the nationals. LL~ LL~

Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2016, 07:22:05 PM »
Chris,
Keep these two in one piece (s). You will need them for the Team Trials next year. That competition will be WIDE open. Orestes is going as the defending WC, and Dave and I are not attending the next TT's.

You have a real shot at the team!  Make it happen! That would make me very happy.

Now, if I could only convince D Moon to make the team.

Time for some new, hungry, and quality USA Team members.

Online frank williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2016, 07:49:16 PM »
Chris
Beautiful planes ....
 ..... thats 56.4 oz ..... what does it weigh with the motor and pipe? ..........
.................................... Oh my that IS with powertrain .... I'm definitely doing something wrong.

is the covering Jap tissue or polyspan?  All dope? where do you hide the helium bags?

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2016, 07:55:46 PM »
Fantastic tribute to Billy!!

You will be a shoe-in for the next team.

How about a write up on building the "twins" for Stunt News???
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2016, 08:02:52 PM »

 VERY NICE!!! y1  Great looking paint scheme too!

 Are you coming to Polk City?
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2016, 08:46:07 PM »
Wow Chris!

Beautiful and exciting stuff!  Looks like a serious bid for the Nationals and the Team Trials is in the offing!

Definitely make the WC Team.  Paul is absolutely right.  The old guard is probably a little tired and the future is for you and others like you!

Hear that Doug??? Get crackin' you guys!

Tell Billy I said HI!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2016, 08:50:57 PM »
Next can you build one Junar Twin XL?  It should be easy with 'lectrics.
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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2016, 09:06:20 PM »
Looks great. If you could post or point me to fine detail and close-ups of the take-apart system, I'd be very greatful :D

Good luck with your approaching summer of flying them!
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline Matt Colan

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 10:15:40 PM »
They both look awesome Chris!!
Matt Colan

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 10:41:47 PM »
Chris
Beautiful planes ....
 ..... thats 56.4 oz ..... what does it weigh with the motor and pipe? ..........
.................................... Oh my that IS with powertrain .... I'm definitely doing something wrong.

is the covering Jap tissue or polyspan?  All dope? where do you hide the helium bags?


Frank,

Its covered in Brodak Silkspan. In wood ready to cover it weighed 22.5 oz and the take apart weighed 25 oz. I really spent a lot of time gathering the right wood for the two planes. I have been ordering a LOT of balsa for the P-47 kits and have been weighing every piece I get in and have been keeping the really good wood for myself... Every kit gets good contest wood but I kept a lot of the 4lb and the type of grain I needed. I think the wood selection had a lot to do with the weight turnout.

The finishing process is as follows...
1. Sand with 320 sandpaper.
2. Z-poxy the entire plane... Every surface that dope will touch.... Wait 20 minutes then wipe off as much as possible. It leaves a thin layer that seals the contest balsa (dope doesn't sink in) and adds very little weight. When dries sand with 320. Just enough to get fuzzes from paper towels off.
3. 2 coats of b. dope.
4. light sand with 320
5. 1 more coat of brushed on dope
6. light Brodak tissue on wings and polyspan on tips. It shrinks better with this type of wing tip. Next time I will probably do solid tips which I will cover with carbon veil. Carbon Veil on the fuse.
7. Brush 1 coat of clear on everything. Sand with 400
8. Brush 3 coats of clear on everything with heavy amount of aero filler. Sand with 400 grit
9. Brush coat the open bays with 2-3 more times with aero saturated dope to fill the pinholes in the silkspan. As you get down to a few holes per bay you can just drop a bit of dope on the holes to fill. Light sand again with 320.
10. Spray primer using DC540. I do the first coat only on the solid surfaces. Not on the bays. I sand it almost all off with 400. Focus on the areas that need more work and make the fillets with super fill. Sand and spray DC-540 until perfect or as close to perfect.
11. Spray entire plane with light coat of DC-540. Sand with 600. I wet sand once I start using DC540. Have done it both ways but like wet sanding a little better.
12. Once satisfied with the foundation mask and spray color. All Randolph & Brodak dope
13. Once I get that done I spray a few coats of clear with the touchup gun over the paint lines so I can blend them together. Then light sand with 600 or 1200 depending on my patience.
14. Ink the plane. I clear a panel or area with a dust coat of clear dope so I can seal the ink.
15. Clean the entire airplane multiple times and spray a light coat of Urethane. I used a dupont product my flying budding Mark Mickiney gave me. Normally I just spray the nose but I decided to try the whole plane. It gained 1.8 oz from the Urethane. I think that is lighter than what I normally do with Clear dope and its better looking. The take apart only has urethane on the nose and 6ish coats of clear dope and it gained 3 oz in clear. That surprised me. Though I think I should have put more Urethane on it since I buffed through in about 10 places. I repaired most of them but still need to go back and fix a few. I figure I will bump it a few times and need to repair those issue before the NATS so I might as well wait until then and do them all at once.

The two planes came out at 56.4 and 58.5 oz. But the take apart needed over 1 oz of nose weight to trim it out while the one piece balanced out right and doesn't need nose weight. I have a KAZ carbon tank in both... I know pointless in the takeaprt but that is a VERY light tank and worked out in the one piece.

Sorry for the long winded response Frank but you asked....  ;)

-Chris



Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 10:43:31 PM »
VERY NICE!!! y1  Great looking paint scheme too!

 Are you coming to Polk City?

No I won't be able to make it. Its my wife and my anniversary. Wish I could!

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2016, 12:12:45 AM »
  Nice job Cris,
  What makes them XL's?  Are they Geo XL wings in a Junar fuse?  What power are you useing?
  John

Offline Steve Bakac

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2016, 05:26:28 AM »
2 Beautiful planes there Chris hope they do justice for you .I'm also with Ash about your take part system any more info n pics
Cheers Steve

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 06:43:57 AM »
  Nice job Cris,
  What makes them XL's?  Are they Geo XL wings in a Junar fuse?  What power are you useing?
  John

I would say 70% Geo XL and 30% Junar.

The Wing: Is a GEO XL airfoil but the wing width is closer to the Junar. Geo XL's span is 61in while the one piece is 58.5. The Yellow Junar is 57.5. The take apart is actually even wider then the Geo XL since it has a span of 61.5. This is the only difference between the two planes. I haven't flow the one piece enough to know which one I like more.

Stab: Stab is the size of the GEO XL with the airfoil and thickness of the Junar. 5/8 verses 3/4. It also isn't inline with the wing like the GEO XL stab is.

The fuse outline is mostly a GEO XL with a Junar rudder and slight sweep up after the CG on the bottom of the plane to meet the rudder. Flows better in my opinion.

The GEO XL and the Junar (Yellow) are pretty similar numbers already so it wasn't hard to combine the two and make it a little more what I wanted.

I think Pat King is going to do the plans in CAD at a later date. I just drafted enough to get the planes done.

Power is a PA 65. I have had a 61 in them also.

-Chris

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 07:25:16 AM »
Lookin good but I knew they would!!! Can't wait til' I get mine finished. #^ #^
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Online frank williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 07:33:23 AM »
Thanks Chris for the finishing description.
The takeapart hardware looks like phenolic or is it plywood?
Frank

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 09:39:59 AM »
Chris, how about a complete write up with pictures for Stunt News.   By the way planes look great and hope to meet you one of these years. H^^
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Offline Crist Rigotti

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 06:23:16 PM »
Very nice Chris!
Crist
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 07:36:58 PM »
Chris,
Thanks for the finishing essay!  I always seem to have problems and am going to try this process on my TP!

Haven't started the P47 yet but it's next!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2016, 04:41:51 AM »
Hi All,

Its actually, 3/32 phenolic, 3/32 basswood, 1/8 spruce, 1/8 hard plywood and unidirectional carbon.

Its based on a design that Tom Morris sent me but I modified the materials to get the best weight and wear value.

It starts by gluing the phenolic tab to the balsa spar. For the Junar XL its 3/16 by 1/4 spar. Then I glue the 1/8 spruce compression joiners (what is normally in a lost foam wing) to both the phenolic tab and the balsa spar. It goes out to the gear but starts tapering after rib 3. Then I build the fuse crutch. I put the slots for the center section spar and make them a little bigger than they need to be. The center section is 3/32 phenolic that is lightened once inside the fuse, 3/32 basswood spacer that goes up until the 3/16 fuse side. Then the bottom piece is the 1/8 hard ply that a 6/32 t-nut goes into. I then slide the phenolic tab into the fork from he center section and drill a hole with a number bit slightly small then what a 6/32 screw needs. This causes a very snug fit and helps stop the screw from vibrating out of the hole. Then the t-nut and screw are put in place. I slide the center section through the fuse and reattach the spars. I build the wing in the lost foam cradle. Once the ribs and trailing edge sheeting is all done I glue the center spare in place. All of it is aligned by the table. Before I put the molded leading edge on I run unidirectional carbon on the top of the spar out about two bays past the gear. The remainder of the system is basically the same system the Paul Walker has drawn on his Impact plans.

Pat is going to draw the system and see if we can find a way to cut the phenolic tabs and laser cut the other parts.

-Chris

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2016, 04:43:31 AM »
More Take apart photos

Offline Steve Bakac

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2016, 07:12:50 AM »
Thank you for sharing Chris  very much appreciated as I'm starting on two saturns and was deciding the best way of taking them apart  and your way looks the simplest
 Cheers Steve.

Online frank williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2016, 09:19:14 AM »
Thanks for the photos

Online frank williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2016, 02:02:36 PM »
Just one more observation ....
Chris, I don't see any ply doublers in the nose.  Is there glass in there or is there ply that I don't see?

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2016, 02:10:14 PM »
Just one more observation ....
Chris, I don't see any ply doublers in the nose.  Is there glass in there or is there ply that I don't see?

There's carbon matt sandwiched between the 3/16 fuse sides and a 1/16 balsa doubler. If I did the takeapart again I would probably put the ply in. The one piece is fine but on the takeapart the wing isn't there to add extra strength.

Offline fred cesquim

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2016, 02:41:39 PM »
Frank super clean building and nice system!
congratulations !! first class finish too
Junar is on my list, love Werwage designs! have kits of the Juno and Ares waiting place on the bench

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2016, 08:02:55 PM »
Looks like the weather is coming in tomorrow. Going to head home.

Bill got a flight on the old yellow junar. It was cool to fly them together tonight.

Offline bill rutherford

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2016, 08:25:11 PM »
Which do you like better? The p47, Tempest or Junar. talking about flying

Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2016, 10:15:27 AM »
Which do you like better? The p47, Tempest or Junar. talking about flying

Bill, I like the Junar XL the best. Turns really sharp and is way more stable than the P-47 or Tempest.

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2016, 10:55:16 AM »
Bill, I like the Junar XL the best. Turns really sharp and is way more stable than the P-47 or Tempest.

What would you attribute the stability to?   
Laser-cut, "Ted Fancher Precision-Pro" Hard Point Handle Kits are available again.  PM for info.
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Offline Chris_Rud

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2016, 11:13:23 AM »
What would you attribute the stability to?   

Longer cord in the wing. The other moments are very similar.

Offline RC Storick

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2016, 11:29:53 AM »
Looks like the weather is coming in tomorrow. Going to head home.

Bill got a flight on the old yellow junar. It was cool to fly them together tonight.

Whos the old dude with the beard?
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Offline Brent Williams

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2016, 11:34:31 AM »
Longer cord in the wing. The other moments are very similar.

That is interesting.  I was wondering if the lower aspect ratio/longer chord would be part of your answer on stability.
Amazing work!
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2016, 12:48:43 PM »
Chris,
Keep these two in one piece (s). You will need them for the Team Trials next year. That competition will be WIDE open. Orestes is going as the defending WC, and Dave and I are not attending the next TT's.

You have a real shot at the team!  Make it happen! That would make me very happy.

Now, if I could only convince D Moon to make the team.

Time for some new, hungry, and quality USA Team members.

Yass!!!  Go for it!  Do it now...in about 10 years or so, when I get a DD214 in my hands...it will be a bit more difficult  S?P S?P S?P S?P S?P

Models look awesome!!!

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2016, 01:02:03 PM »
Hey Chris, tell Billy I see evidence that he's been spending waaaay too much time with Trax!! LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2016, 02:38:42 PM »
Hey...
Looks like Bill is getting really serious about this "Old Guy" stuff.  Doesn't the beard get in the way of guitar strings?   LL~ LL~ LL~

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Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2016, 12:02:22 AM »
Sorry I missed the fun out there. If I'd paid attention, I'd have been there. Well, it seems that our guys will be there and in PA tomorrow. I'm going flying  at the FG though. Great pair of planes!

SK

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2016, 12:45:25 PM »
Hey...
Looks like Bill is getting really serious about this "Old Guy" stuff.  Doesn't the beard get in the way of guitar strings?   LL~ LL~ LL~

Randy Cuberly

     He could hide extra picks in there...maybe a tuner or a peg winder  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2016, 03:19:09 PM »
Time for some new, hungry, and quality USA Team members.

Paul, I think America's best bet is to send the 2014 team.  You need that maturity in F2B.     
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2016, 03:24:51 PM »
Time for some new, hungry, and quality USA Team members.

I don't like to toot my own horn, but you don't get a physique like this by not being hungry.
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Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2016, 03:52:32 PM »
Stuntopia is the place to be!Spent a bit of time out there Friday as well.I love to learn and with Billy and Chris the sky is the limit.Thanx for all the helpful hints!!! H^^ H^^
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2016, 04:01:54 PM »
I don't like to toot my own horn, but you don't get a physique like this by not being hungry.
Really Howard, I would think that physique is an indication that you satisfied the hunger,,
 D>K
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Offline Paul Walker

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2016, 05:41:30 PM »
Paul, I think America's best bet is to send the 2014 team.  You need that maturity in F2B.     


Not possible to have the "same" team there. Orestes will be flying as the World Champion, and thus not part of the US "team".

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2016, 05:44:10 PM »

Not possible to have the "same" team there. Orestes will be flying as the World Champion, and thus not part of the US "team".

Sorry for engaging in thread-hijacking but -- wait, what?  Does this mean that if Orestes goes you'll be sending three other adult-type people to be the US team?
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2016, 06:00:16 PM »
Really Howard, I would think that physique is an indication that you satisfied the hunger...

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2016, 06:25:00 PM »
Sorry for engaging in thread-hijacking but -- wait, what?  Does this mean that if Orestes goes you'll be sending three other adult-type people to be the US team?

No not exactly, the US team will still be 3 people and 1 jr, if we have one, and Orestes will be an independent defending  his crown, not part of the  team

Randy

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2016, 11:47:16 PM »
No not exactly, the US team will still be 3 people and 1 jr, if we have one, and Orestes will be an independent defending  his crown, not part of the  team

Randy

I think we're saying the same thing -- Orestes would go, and then there'd be three additional adults (I'd say responsible adults, but Howard might get onto the team again), plus a junior if we can convince Steve to let Samantha try out.
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Twin Junar XL's are done!
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2016, 08:00:38 AM »
Hi Chris,

A really super job on two beautiful models!  Aaron did something similar by Billy's instructions using the original Geo Bolt wing and Bill's Geo XL.  He used the geo Bolt wing in the XL fuselage with the XL stab and elevators.  We immediately saw the difference in root chord between the two.  Billy said then to put the wing in with the LE in the same place so we ended up with almost 1 1/2" more tail moment.  A very very stable model with no loss of turn!

Your two look awesome and you really should go for the WC team!!  It will be a great experience.
Bill
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