Tom Lay Super Tigre V60 Spec Sheet

[George Albo]

If anyone had the privilege of having Tom Lay work on your ST V60 and give you a spec sheet for it.
Could you please post it if you have a copy?

George

[Dan McEntee]

  Hi George;
    I have had Tom do several ST.60's and ST.51's for me. Are you referring to an instruction sheet for break in and operation? I don't recall ever getting particular specifications about any of the work done on the engines. Is that what you are referring to?
  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[George Albo]

  Hi George;
    I have had Tom do several ST.60's and ST.51's for me. Are you referring to an instruction sheet for break in and operation? I don't recall ever getting particular specifications about any of the work done on the engines. Is that what you are referring to?
  Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

Dan I was looking to see what Tom had done to improve the ST V60. I saw a reference to a spec sheet by Tom during a google search which brought me to ask about this. I'd like to know what he did. Measurements, trimming etc.

Thanks,

George

[Dan McEntee]

    When it came to engine rework on Super Tigre engines, rework is almost an incorrect word. As far as I know, Tom just "optimized" everything on an engine. He had a way of fitting all parts to minimum specs, he used his own venturi, he would check any bearings and replace as necessary, and set compression and deck height as needed. Hardened piston rings were part of the recipe also. Tom knew Tigres very well and knew what parts could and could not be interchanged. There were several versions of the ST.60 with different head and piston configurations and such and parts would not necessarily interchange. Tom did have a sheet where he explained the differences in those in a chronological order. I think this listing has been posted several times before in the engine forums.  But as far as timing and such, I don't think he changed anything there, the same with the .46. You can take a box stock ST.60 with a venturi and needle valve on it and get a good stunt run with it. I guess you could say that Tom's engines were at least blue printed, and I understand that to mean that all parts and clearances are set to a minimum factory specification. On all the other  brands of engine he did, some of those may have been retimed a bit, but if it's original timing was proper for the run he wanted, I'm sure he left it alone. I hope this helps a bit. I sure do miss Tom!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Will Davis]

   When it came to engine rework on Super Tigre engines, rework is almost an incorrect word. As far as I know, Tom just "optimized" everything on an engine. He had a way of fitting all parts to minimum specs, he used his own venturi, he would check any bearings and replace as necessary, and set compression and deck height as needed. Hardened piston rings were part of the recipe also. Tom knew Tigres very well and knew what parts could and could not be interchanged. There were several versions of the ST.60 with different head and piston configurations and such and parts would not necessarily interchange. Tom did have a sheet where he explained the differences in those in a chronological order. I think this listing has been posted several times before in the engine forums.  But as far as timing and such, I don't think he changed anything there, the same with the .46. You can take a box stock ST.60 with a venturi and needle valve on it and get a good stunt run with it. I guess you could say that Tom's engines were at least blue printed, and I understand that to mean that all parts and clearances are set to a minimum factory specification. On all the other  brands of engine he did, some of those may have been retimed a bit, but if it's original timing was proper for the run he wanted, I'm sure he left it alone. I hope this helps a bit. I sure do miss Tom!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I have 3 Tom Lay ST 60 engines that I got from Tom in the early 90's. . What Dan explained is exactly what was told to me by Tom. My understanding is that he just corrected any variations in manufacturing tolerances.

He did a few minor Tom lay mods, but very few people knew what they were .

Two of mine have consecutive serial numbers and they ran exactly alike, just put the second one to use last year for the first time. After 25 years , the first one finally needs a new ring..

I have never seen a spec sheet, only instructions from Tom on fuel, glow plug and muffler recommendations .

[George Albo]

    When it came to engine rework on Super Tigre engines, rework is almost an incorrect word. As far as I know, Tom just "optimized" everything on an engine. He had a way of fitting all parts to minimum specs, he used his own venturi, he would check any bearings and replace as necessary, and set compression and deck height as needed. Hardened piston rings were part of the recipe also. Tom knew Tigres very well and knew what parts could and could not be interchanged. There were several versions of the ST.60 with different head and piston configurations and such and parts would not necessarily interchange. Tom did have a sheet where he explained the differences in those in a chronological order. I think this listing has been posted several times before in the engine forums.  But as far as timing and such, I don't think he changed anything there, the same with the .46. You can take a box stock ST.60 with a venturi and needle valve on it and get a good stunt run with it. I guess you could say that Tom's engines were at least blue printed, and I understand that to mean that all parts and clearances are set to a minimum factory specification. On all the other  brands of engine he did, some of those may have been retimed a bit, but if it's original timing was proper for the run he wanted, I'm sure he left it alone. I hope this helps a bit. I sure do miss Tom!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

It helps a great deal in understanding his method. It would be nice if someone had access to that sheet and would post it. Thanks Dan!
George

[George Albo]

I have 3 Tom Lay ST 60 engines that I got from Tom in the early 90's. . What Dan explained is exactly what was told to me by Tom. My understanding is that he just corrected any variations in manufacturing tolerances.

He did a few minor Tom lay mods, but very few people knew what they were .

Two of mine have consecutive serial numbers and they ran exactly alike, just put the second one to use last year for the first time. After 25 years , the first one finally needs a new ring..

I have never seen a spec sheet, only instructions from Tom on fuel, glow plug and muffler recommendations .

Would you post those instructions?
George

[Dennis Toth]

Guy's,
I would hope that those who know what mods were done by Tom (and others that worked on these engines) would post the information for the sake of not losing it. As our group gets older we and our engine men pass on (all to soon) we start to lose the technology for those that are still interested in using these engines. The argument is made that the "secrets" once known, everyone will do it themselves and put the "engine" builders out of business. Although some will try (and have a good chance of ruining the engine in the process) most don't have the equipment/tools to accurately make the mods nor do they have the time. Let's not lose this information so that we don't have to wait years to rediscover it.

Best,   DennisT

[George Albo]

Guy's,
I would hope that those who know what mods were done by Tom (and others that worked on these engines) would post the information for the sake of not losing it. As our group gets older we and our engine men pass on (all to soon) we start to lose the technology for those that are still interested in using these engines. The argument is made that the "secrets" once known, everyone will do it themselves and put the "engine" builders out of business. Although some will try (and have a good chance of ruining the engine in the process) most don't have the equipment/tools to accurately make the mods nor do they have the time. Let's not lose this information so that we don't have to wait years to rediscover it.

Best,   DennisT

Ditto Dennis. Even if I am not equipped to do anything remotely as good as Tom, his knowledge should not disappear. I just want to know what he did different from the engine manufacturer to make a great engine, greater!
George

[Randy Cuberly]

George,
I've had two of Tom's engines over the years and can testify that there was no magic in either of them.  Just careful fitting of parts and careful assembly of quality bearings.  Mine had re-chromed sleeves and hardened rings and were honed very round and just slightly tapered from bottom to top.  If there is any secret it is simple skill in fitting the piston and ring and installing the bearings so they are free and concentric to each other.  While this sounds like a simple task it takes a lot of experience and skill to accomplish. 

What Dan McEntee said above is the simple Gospel.  There are no secrets in making a good stunt engine just skill and experience.  For racing engines it may be a different story and small touches in timing etc, can make a difference, but not in a good stunt engine if it has reasonable timing specs to begin with.  The Supertiger 60's and 46's were just about ideal in terms of timing and bore/stroke arrangements for our task.

When engine manufacturers make the parts for engines they cannot afford to spend the time on each engine to accomplish this "perfect fit", hence the term "blueprinting".  They must allow tolerances so that any parts will fit in any engine interchangeably.  Custom engine folks don't do that.  They hand fit each part to minimal tolerances for an individual engine!

Other tuners like Randy Smith do the same special fitting on the engines that they consider "blue printed".  I re-iterate "It's not easy to do and requires a lot of acquired skill over time to accomplish!".

Randy Cuberly

[George Albo]

George,
I've had two of Tom's engines over the years and can testify that there was no magic in either of them.  Just careful fitting of parts and careful assembly of quality bearings.  Mine had re-chromed sleeves and hardened rings and were honed very round and just slightly tapered from bottom to top.  If there is any secret it is simple skill in fitting the piston and ring and installing the bearings so they are free and concentric to each other.  While this sounds like a simple task it takes a lot of experience and skill to accomplish. 

What Dan McEntee said above is the simple Gospel.  There are no secrets in making a good stunt engine just skill and experience.  For racing engines it may be a different story and small touches in timing etc, can make a difference, but not in a good stunt engine if it has reasonable timing specs to begin with.  The Supertiger 60's and 46's were just about ideal in terms of timing and bore/stroke arrangements for our task.

When engine manufacturers make the parts for engines they cannot afford to spend the time on each engine to accomplish this "perfect fit", hence the term "blueprinting".  They must allow tolerances so that any parts will fit in any engine interchangeably.  Custom engine folks don't do that.  They hand fit each part to minimal tolerances for an individual engine!

Other tuners like Randy Smith do the same special fitting on the engines that they consider "blue printed".  I re-iterate "It's not easy to do and requires a lot of acquired skill over time to accomplish!".

Randy Cuberly

Thank you Randy for the heads up. Right now I lack the skill level to accomplish what skilled masters both present and past have accomplished. It's good to know that this kind of work is still available and while simple on the face of it, it is anything BUT and better left in the hands of those that know what they are doing. When I'm ready to compete I'll send my engines to one of the guys for a once over.
Thanks,

George

[Dan McEntee]

   Everything that is made with or by a machine has certain manufacturing tolerances for proper fit and operation. I'm not sure what the spread was for Super Tigre engines of that time but it would be interesting to know. Every engine that came down the assembly line was not exactly the same. Neither was any engine. The story I heard about the Fox .35's that Bob Geiseke used, was that he went to the factory, and Duke allowed him access to the production parts and Bob hand picked his parts for optimum fit and assembled his own engines. I think Tom had quite a supply of new and good used parts, and would mix and match parts to get the best possible fit at minimum dimension of factory tolerances if he had to. One thing to watch is how round the cylinders are, and if need be, hone it to get it round, and then find a good match for a piston to fit the new bore. Yes, a cylinder liner can be out of round from the factory. Some ST.60 cylinders were chromed, some were not. All the cases had the word "Chromed" on them but some of the cylinders were not. There was some other small part on the engine that was always chromed, and that was their loop hole to keep the word on the crank case. There were certain versions of the ST.60 light case that were better stunt engines than the others, and it was more than just having muffler ears.  Hardened piston rings that were matched with proper minimum gap was another "secret". Towards the end at least I think, Tom used Frank Bowman rings, but in his early days, I think Tom did his own heat treating. Each detail that he worked on was in itself, not the one thing that made for a great engine, but put them all together and they add up to a great performing engine. Tom did more than just Super Tigre engines, and it was pretty much the same for those also. When you got an engine from Tom, he included a hand written note with what he recommended for fuel, prop for break in, further break in instructions, and prop recommendation for flying. Tom also did quite a bit of work for the vintage free flight crowd and participated in that himself also. I had a few discussions with him about compressed air engines also. Tom was quite a guy.
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

Tom Lay said that he hardened the cylinder liner and honed the bore. Also said that after he retired, he had somebody else do the honing.

After a lot of years in machine shops, running lathes, mills, and doing QC, I would like to know what sort of hardening process could be done without distortion. In Aerospace shops, we wouldn't even try that. SOP would be to rough machine, HT, then finish turn, perhaps with excess for grind, OD, maybe grid ID, hone ID, etc. It's not entirely about getting the bore round, because if the OD isn't round after HT, then the round bore will get distorted when the cylinder is pushed into the crankcase bore.

I think the data sheet I have from Tom just talks about fuel, oil type and percentage, and break-in. Plan on it to take awhile to get the ring seated. My G.51 required an electric finger for quite awhile. I ran the 12.25 x 3.75 APC that Dan recommended...worked ok on the G.51, but don't do that to the older type .51, .56 or .60. After 10-ish runs with PM 10-29, I changed to PM 10-22, contrary to Tom Lay's wishes. Keeping the ring free in the groove is important. Tom was fussy about end gap and ring thickness to piston groove fit. IIRC, .001" for both.   Steve

[Gerald Schamp]

You might check with Scott Riese, he did a lot outside work for Tom when Tom would get behind with orders. I do know that he hardened and hoaned the cylinders and used a Bowman ring. Took a long time to break in but once it did, the power was way up there. I've had a number of Tom's engines and they all ran super. One of his special engines was the rework of the ST .51 R/C engine. It runs a but different than the stunt engine, a little higher r's but still a killer engine. The first ones were built for Alice Cotton Royer, Dave's wife, and they had a special name as well, "The Sweet Alice .51". She ran them in her SV-11 plans a few years back.

[George Albo]

Tom Lay said that he hardened the cylinder liner and honed the bore. Also said that after he retired, he had somebody else do the honing.

After a lot of years in machine shops, running lathes, mills, and doing QC, I would like to know what sort of hardening process could be done without distortion. In Aerospace shops, we wouldn't even try that. SOP would be to rough machine, HT, then finish turn, perhaps with excess for grind, OD, maybe grid ID, hone ID, etc. It's not entirely about getting the bore round, because if the OD isn't round after HT, then the round bore will get distorted when the cylinder is pushed into the crankcase bore.

I think the data sheet I have from Tom just talks about fuel, oil type and percentage, and break-in. Plan on it to take awhile to get the ring seated. My G.51 required an electric finger for quite awhile. I ran the 12.25 x 3.75 APC that Dan recommended...worked ok on the G.51, but don't do that to the older type .51, .56 or .60. After 10-ish runs with PM 10-29, I changed to PM 10-22, contrary to Tom Lay's wishes. Keeping the ring free in the groove is important. Tom was fussy about end gap and ring thickness to piston groove fit. IIRC, .001" for both.   Steve

Steve any chance of copying that letter and posting it here. Might consider that a historical C/L document! Seriously, stuff like that should not not disappear into the ether....

Thanks,
George

[George Albo]

You might check with Scott Riese, he did a lot outside work for Tom when Tom would get behind with orders. I do know that he hardened and hoaned the cylinders and used a Bowman ring. Took a long time to break in but once it did, the power was way up there. I've had a number of Tom's engines and they all ran super. One of his special engines was the rework of the ST .51 R/C engine. It runs a but different than the stunt engine, a little higher r's but still a killer engine. The first ones were built for Alice Cotton Royer, Dave's wife, and they had a special name as well, "The Sweet Alice .51". She ran them in her SV-11 plans a few years back.

Thank you Gerald.
George

[Scott B. Riese]

You might check with Scott Riese, he did a lot outside work for Tom when Tom would get behind with orders. I do know that he hardened and hoaned the cylinders and used a Bowman ring. Took a long time to break in but once it did, the power was way up there. I've had a number of Tom's engines and they all ran super. One of his special engines was the rework of the ST .51 R/C engine. It runs a but different than the stunt engine, a little higher r's but still a killer engine. The first ones were built for Alice Cotton Royer, Dave's wife, and they had a special name as well, "The Sweet Alice .51". She ran them in her SV-11 plans a few years back.

Very few things where done to the engine case.
1 New Venturi and correct location hole for the NVA. This is important .275 NVA =156 .002-.004
2 New harden bowman ring with .001-.003 gap
3 Straighten crank shaft
4 Re-place Bearings
5 Proper Head Gasket min was .016 max was .025
6 VERY SLIGHT HONE or LAPPING
8 Proper bolting
9 Sometimes a new or added Backplate gasket
10 FUEL..Always use some castor. with the ST51...ST60 he liked all castor or 22-25% 50/50 blend.
AS for the chroming....Priceless Cannot Answer this. some st-60's had Hemi Head...customers order.

Hope this helps

scott

[FLOYD CARTER]

Looks like the "secrets" The Layster's engine work is becoming sort of an urban legend! No one knows for sure, but lots of guesses.

My own ST51 from Tommie came with no instructions.  I didn't give it very much bench running, and it performed perfectly.. and still does.  So much for long-time ring-seating!

Tom was pretty much silent on exactly what his procedures were.  I suppose he thought it would be too complicated for someone, not a "motorhead" ,to grasp.

I always addressed Tom as "Junior", because I also knew his dad, Tom Sr.

Floyd

[George Albo]

Looks like the "secrets" The Layster's engine work is becoming sort of an urban legend! No one knows for sure, but lots of guesses.

My own ST51 from Tommie came with no instructions.  I didn't give it very much bench running, and it performed perfectly.. and still does.  So much for long-time ring-seating!

Tom was pretty much silent on exactly what his procedures were.  I suppose he thought it would be too complicated for someone, not a "motorhead" ,to grasp.

I always addressed Tom as "Junior", because I also knew his dad, Tom Sr.

Floyd

Thanks Floyd for sharing this.

[Scott B. Riese]

    When it came to engine rework on Super Tigre engines, rework is almost an incorrect word. As far as I know, Tom just "optimized" everything on an engine. He had a way of fitting all parts to minimum specs, he used his own venturi, he would check any bearings and replace as necessary, and set compression and deck height as needed. Hardened piston rings were part of the recipe also. Tom knew Tigres very well and knew what parts could and could not be interchanged. There were several versions of the ST.60 with different head and piston configurations and such and parts would not necessarily interchange. Tom did have a sheet where he explained the differences in those in a chronological order. I think this listing has been posted several times before in the engine forums.  But as far as timing and such, I don't think he changed anything there, the same with the .46. You can take a box stock ST.60 with a venturi and needle valve on it and get a good stunt run with it. I guess you could say that Tom's engines were at least blue printed, and I understand that to mean that all parts and clearances are set to a minimum factory specification. On all the other  brands of engine he did, some of those may have been retimed a bit, but if it's original timing was proper for the run he wanted, I'm sure he left it alone. I hope this helps a bit. I sure do miss Tom!
    Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

THANK YOU DAN..........I spent many hours/days working on these engines. I don't have the resources to continue doing them. There are others that did do work for TOM. Scott

[George Albo]

Very few things where done to the engine case.
1 New Venturi and correct location hole for the NVA. This is important .275 NVA =156 .002-.004
2 New harden bowman ring with .001-.003 gap
3 Straighten crank shaft
4 Re-place Bearings
5 Proper Head Gasket min was .016 max was .025
6 VERY SLIGHT HONE or LAPPING
8 Proper bolting
9 Sometimes a new or added Backplate gasket
10 FUEL..Always use some castor. with the ST51...ST60 he liked all castor or 22-25% 50/50 blend.
AS for the chroming....Priceless Cannot Answer this. some st-60's had Hemi Head...customers order.

Hope this helps

scott

Thanks Scott. Very good information and really helpful!

George