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Author Topic: Starcraft build  (Read 11277 times)

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Starcraft build
« on: October 25, 2015, 01:43:50 AM »
I am sure Stunthanger needs another build thread, so here is one I am getting stuck into.

Starcraft 3 by Doug Grinham of Australia. 56 inch span and normally for a .61 although this one will be electric.

Be my first electric and first take apart plane. I need to be able to travel by air with it to attend contests in the North Island of New Zealand. Otherwise it's a 2000+ km round trip in the car.

Power will be an MVVS 6.5/910 motor, 70a ESC run by a KR governor/timer. I intend on running a Gens Ace 4s 3000mah battery.

Hopefully the pictures explain themselves, will more to come soon
NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 01:53:24 AM »
Forgot the pictures of the control system from Tom Morris.

Was very happy when it arrived in the mail, very nicely made and exactly to the measurements I need.

Should work very nicely.

NZL7396

Offline Gordon Van Tighem

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 07:15:54 AM »
So far, so good! Keep it up.
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Offline Les McDonald

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 09:01:38 AM »
A very nice project but, simply because of your last name and location, I beg to ask, are you any relation to the late , great Burt Munro?
I see people my age out there climbing mountains and zip lining and here I am feeling good about myself because I got my leg through my underwear without losing my balance

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 11:05:46 AM »
A very nice project but, simply because of your last name and location, I beg to ask, are you any relation to the late , great Burt Munro?

Les, distant relation I believe. Despite living only a 45 minute drive from where he lived. I think his lot arrived on a different boat from Scotland.

He is a legend in these parts, a life size statue even exists in Invercargill and a motorcycle rally named after him.

NZL7396

Offline Les McDonald

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 06:52:24 PM »
Thanks Daniel, old Burt is a legend around here also!
I see people my age out there climbing mountains and zip lining and here I am feeling good about myself because I got my leg through my underwear without losing my balance

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 07:03:29 PM »
I was expecting something with turbo jets and anti-grav.
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2015, 08:46:14 PM »
What's the rib spacing on that one, what's the wing area?


Thanks,
MM

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2015, 09:27:25 PM »
I was expecting something with turbo jets and anti-grav.

Haha, I think that the MVVS should provide it with plenty of anti-grav.
NZL7396

Offline john ohnimus

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 06:34:10 AM »
Nice work Daniel!!
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2015, 04:43:46 PM »
Have managed some more work on Starcraft.

Got the fuselage in the jig just now and have all the formers in place.

I'd earlier made up the battery tray and front formers and glued it all in place. It's made from 3/16 ply made from balsa. Really light and strong compared to birch ply.

After much deliberation I've decided the battery will be top loading, I'll make a removable hatch on top behind the engine mount.

Might get out to do some more later once the glue is dry.
NZL7396

Offline Motorman

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2015, 08:15:51 PM »
I predict the battery will rip that balsa right out of the plane, hope I'm wrong.


MM

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2015, 09:20:04 PM »
I predict the battery will rip that balsa right out of the plane, hope I'm wrong.


MM

Do you mean the battery tray? I'm not done yet, there will be ply reinforcing going in where the velcro strap goes through. I'm confident there won't be anything flying out or off the plane in a hard turn.

I took some measurements today as to your last question, inboard wing rib spacing is 53mm and outboard 50mm.

Wing area isn't stated on the plan, but a quick calculation puts it at 608 sq inches. I currently fly a Legacy 40 which isn't much smaller and its 565 sq inches so it seems right.

Daniel.
NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2015, 01:00:21 AM »
Got the motor mount glued in today.

Didn't have any 6mm ply so 2 laminations of 3mm ought to do the trick.

The holes are bushed with brass to stop the wood crushing. Glued in with slow cure epoxy, also added some carbon reinforcement to the rear.

Can't do much more until I get my take apart bits made.
NZL7396

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2015, 02:06:49 PM »
FYI, a lot of our electron guys have used Velcro and abandoned it in favor of a machine screw or two. Having the battery fly out is not a good thing to have happen. I know Paul Walker and Mark Scarborough have had that experience, and they're not alone. Also, Velco wears out, if you're lucky. H^^ Steve
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2015, 02:51:51 PM »
Now wait,, I think Velcro is awesome,,

for holding my grandsons shoes on

not so much for battery retention,, I can show you the scars on my airplane to prove it ,, and I was pretty thorough with my velcro,, my battery will NOT escape again,, I have two feet of logging chain holding it in now,,

well ok so its a bracket and a 4-40 machine screw,,,, but it aint coming out again,,

I know some people use velcro,, I will not do it again,, it cost me making the qualifications at the Nats,, 2100 miles each way,, hours of practice on site,, all for naught because of a stupid strip of velcro,,
I was very fortunate not to have my 13 ounce battery hit a person when it launched at 55 mph,, and bounce through the pits,, which incidently had the concourse winning airplane sitting there,, that would have totally ruined my "Nats experience"
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2015, 01:08:30 AM »
Now wait,, I think Velcro is awesome,,

for holding my grandsons shoes on

not so much for battery retention,, I can show you the scars on my airplane to prove it ,, and I was pretty thorough with my velcro,, my battery will NOT escape again,, I have two feet of logging chain holding it in now,,

well ok so its a bracket and a 4-40 machine screw,,,, but it aint coming out again,,

I know some people use velcro,, I will not do it again,, it cost me making the qualifications at the Nats,, 2100 miles each way,, hours of practice on site,, all for naught because of a stupid strip of velcro,,
I was very fortunate not to have my 13 ounce battery hit a person when it launched at 55 mph,, and bounce through the pits,, which incidently had the concourse winning airplane sitting there,, that would have totally ruined my "Nats experience"

Hi Mark.

Point taken, the last thing I want is a battery taking a flight on its own. As this is my first electric plane I want it to work and not be a disaster, it's been an expensive transition getting everything I need.

Must have been upsetting having travelled 2100 miles! To put it into perspective New Zealand isn't even that long! SH1 runs from the top to the bottom and is only 2047km or 1271 miles with a ferry trip in the middle.

I intend on going to the next NZ nationals, for me it's a 1020km or 633 mile drive each way with a ferry trip from the South to North Island. Not that far compared to your journey.

Daniel.
NZL7396

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2015, 10:13:07 AM »
I hope others get it too,,
Its somewhat traumatic to watch your battery bounce past everyones airplanes,, its worth whatever it takes to avoid it... I have opted for a muchmore mechanical method, there is a picture of it in my thread on the Impact,, ( Prey)
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2015, 10:33:49 AM »
Some guys around here use Velcro including the Nats champ, but like Mark, I won't use it. I have and run into problems. I have used it to move the battery fore and aft, but not to retain the battery in the plane. But then, I'm a belt AND suspenders sort of guy.
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2015, 11:38:10 AM »
Daniel,

You may want to reexamine your plywood motor mount?

It resembles the one I made and placed in the ARGO. There's a Thread on that.

He must have missed your photo but here's what Mark had to say about my mount,

"your mount is a LOT different than those Charles,, from experience,, I do note expect yours to survive,, there is a lot more torque on there than you think,, and with no web to tie the attach points together,, It wont take long to fatigue and fracture that plywood,,"

He makes a good point and knows his stuff, so I changed mine. Took a bit of work but I did it. Well, it took a lot of work but I feel better about the change.

Another thing. My mount had the motor mounted in the front and was considered weak, you have yours rear mounted. That could possibly be another issue?

I'm not sure, but I would check with Mark.

Nice build so far.  H^^

Charles


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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2015, 11:43:36 AM »
Yea, I'd at least front it with a bit of CF.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2015, 08:15:16 PM »
I was holding onto a new-ish eStunter to launch it...motor started to spool up and BLAM!!!...silence. Motor came out the front, went a ways and crashed itself. Plane stayed right where it was. I calmly reached forward, pushed the red button, and then removed the arming plug. I've seen a lot of experience modelers have problems early-on with electron powered stunters. I think they underestimate the strength needed to not only handle the power and torque, but also to handle the "aw @#$%" things that seem to happen on occasion. But that's just my observation. No, I can't provide the math to prove it, Howard.  VD~ Steve
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2015, 02:09:46 AM »
Thanks guys. That's certainly given me something to think about.

Trouble is I've now done all the nose block assembly and cannot access the front of the mount without removing all if it. I can reinforce it from the rear easily enough. I am thinking adding a reasonable amount of carbon fibre.

As to the mounting of the motor, there are a few of these motors in use over here, both front and rear mounted. I decided to rear mount simply due to having more surface area to glue the mount to. There was much less depth in the fuselage sides right at the front.

I got the wing spars in tonight, ready to get the fuselage hardware installed over the next few days. Then I can complete the wings.

My batteries will be here soon as well, been a long boat ride for them.

NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2015, 07:14:01 PM »
I test fitted the take apart bits on the main spar today. All fits nicely and should work well.

It's quite simple, consists of a piece of aluminium rod at each end with a spigot top and bottom, it's threaded M4 in the middle. A strip of 3mm high tensile aluminium then goes top and bottom which is a snug fit on the spigot. This bit is to be mounted into the fuselage.

The wing spars have the same aluminium spliced into them and wrapped in braided fishing line. The ends are brass bushed. It's all held together with 4 high tensile M4 countersunk cap screws.

I've also made an assembly to go near the trailing edge. Which will take an M3 bolt.

He fuselage assembly also doubles as the bellcrank mount.

Waiting on some slow epoxy and JB Weld to set, maybe tomorrow I can look at glueing everything in to the fuselage.
NZL7396

Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2015, 02:43:22 PM »
The National Champion uses rear mount. That's good enough for me.
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2015, 04:25:53 PM »
This morning I got the take apart bit all glued into the fuselage.

All fits well and seems nice and rigid.

Next I'll add some reinforcing to the fuselage parts to ensure no up/down movement is possible.

I'm happy how it's worked out. Being my first take apart plane I was a little worried at the work I'd need to do. I'll find out in the first hard corner if it's strong enough I guess!
NZL7396

Offline John Rist

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 08:33:08 AM »
I have had good luck with Bob Hunt's G-10 fiberglass motor mount. Look at reply # 16 at:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,29954.0.html

I laminated two plywood sheets with the G10 and so far it has held up. 
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 10:12:25 AM »
Yea, I was thinking the same thing.
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 10:21:36 AM »
Hi Daniel. Just curious, but where are the leadouts going? D>K

Ty, Randy.

Don't worry I've not forgotten the leadouts. I am yet to cut the holes.

Ill taking material out of the ribs with my dremel. Will also be cutting holes in the fuselage.

Daniel.
NZL7396

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2015, 10:32:45 AM »
Aw shucks.  Here I was waiting for the maiden flight of the finished plane and no lead outs. LL~ LL~
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2015, 02:24:46 PM »
OK, sort of doing it the hard way, but OK.
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 12:32:47 AM »
I've been so busy lately. Only the last week have I managed to get some more work done.

It's really starting to take shape now, leading edge sheeting and cap strips are on the wings. They feel nice and stiff and the take apart bits all fit well and feel strong. Will make up wing tips next. Also adjustable lead out and weight box to go in. Then lots of shaping and sanding.

I'll install the bellcrank, flap horn and pushrods into the fuselage as well as take care of the removable tail assembly soon too. Then I can close it in and start preparing for covering.

Really hoping to have this plane ready and trimmed for the NZ Nationals in March.
NZL7396

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2015, 03:11:21 PM »
Looking good so far.  Better get on the stick as March will be here before you know it.
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2015, 10:13:15 PM »
Hi Daniel:

Nice model! Unusual to see built up flaps and tail surfaces. How are you planning on covering them to get the rigidity needed? How about the covering and finish of the rest of the model? March is not that far off but you should be able to make it unless you build at my rate. I calculate that when all the woodwork is done and the model is ready to apply the finish, I am about 25% done.

Out of curiosity, what would you estimate to be the total number of stunt flyers in all of New Zealand?

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 12:48:58 AM »
Hi Daniel:

Nice model! Unusual to see built up flaps and tail surfaces. How are you planning on covering them to get the rigidity needed? How about the covering and finish of the rest of the model? March is not that far off but you should be able to make it unless you build at my rate. I calculate that when all the woodwork is done and the model is ready to apply the finish, I am about 25% done.

Out of curiosity, what would you estimate to be the total number of stunt flyers in all of New Zealand?

Hi Mike.

I'll be covering the wings, flaps and tail feathers in Polyspan. It should hold it all nice and rigid once taught and sealed up. I've used built up tail for a long time without fail. This is the first plane I've built up the flaps.

I've got two full days ahead where I can get stuck into it. Should have the fuselage closed in by the weeks end. If its not ready by March I can fall back on my Legacy or Cardinal. But I definitely need it by Mid April to attend a contest which I will be flying to. This plane will be my piece of checked luggage in its box all taken apart.

I honestly don't know how many stunt pilots in NZ. I live at the wrong end of the country and don't get to many contests as a result. Just had a look at the last NZ Nats results, there were 7 entrants in F2B and 6 in sportsman aerobatics. I believe there are many more pilots than this though. The last control line day I organised at my end of the country attracted 12 pilots.

I am working hard in my area to attract younger members to the hobby. We have 2 juniors in our club and I hope this will grow moving forward.
NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2016, 10:59:13 PM »
Earlier in the piece concerns were raised about my engine mount. Good news I have heeded advice and have faced it with some carbon sheet.

I really hope now its going to be strong enough.

Tomorrow I've got some spare time so I hope to get cracking again.

NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2016, 10:49:14 PM »
Wings and tail feathers ready to cover.

Fuselage closed in, just the nose this shape and battery hatch to make.

It's not far off now.

Feeling good for weight at the moment too.
NZL7396

Offline john ohnimus

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2016, 05:02:22 AM »
Nice work Daniel!!
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Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2016, 01:52:12 AM »
Nice work Daniel!!

Thanks John.

Today I got the nose shaped and battery hatch made. Still some sanding to go to get the hatch to match up nicely.

Then the cowling, not sure how I go about that yet. As the motor is accessible via the battery tray I do not need a removable cowl so I may make it a permanent fixture.

Also some pictures of the wings and tail as they are off the fuselage.
NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2016, 03:39:47 PM »
I've been busy again. Will begin painting tomorrow.

Covered with Poly Tissue from Stunthanger Hobby, I have never used this stuff before and found it to be great. I stuck it down with Balsalok and an iron then shrunk tight with the heatgun before sealing up with several coats of sanding sealer.

The fuselage has a layer of very fine fibreglass applied with sanding sealer. Should give me a really nice surface to paint.

NZL7396

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2016, 04:05:38 PM »
Daniel,

Wow! Looks great!  H^^

Ever use primer as a base for paint?

Charles
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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2016, 01:36:27 AM »
Daniel,

Wow! Looks great!  H^^

Ever use primer as a base for paint?

Charles

Charles. Thanks for the compliments.

As for primer. I've used it on past models, however I don't do much painting I am still learning how to paint nicely.

I'll be dropping this at a friends place tomorrow and it will come back painted haha.

Be a typical white, red and blue paint scheme.
NZL7396

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2016, 02:21:04 AM »
Charles. Thanks for the compliments.

As for primer. I've used it on past models, however I don't do much painting I am still learning how to paint nicely.

I'll be dropping this at a friends place tomorrow and it will come back painted haha.

Be a typical white, red and blue paint scheme.


Daniel,

Great method of painting.

Wish I had a friend.  ;D

Got photos of his work?

Charles
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2016, 06:58:36 PM »
Daniel,
It may be a bit late in the build for this advice now, but I would strongly advise your to cover the flaps with balsa sheeting.  All attempts to use built up flaps covered with plastic film or silkspan have resulted in flaps that flex in maneuver making the airplane nearly impossible to trim properly.

At this point even 1/32 balsa sheeting covered with a layer of 1 oz glass cloth would be far superior and add only a little weight.  This is in my opinion as well as others that you will definitely have issues with these flaps as they are currently constructed.

This is a very nice airplane and I would hate to see it turn into a lemon because of flexi-flaps!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline John Boys

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2016, 04:11:37 AM »
Daniel,

With regards to Randy's comments about sheeting the flaps, here is a heavy crop of Doug's electric Starcraft during a wingover. The flaps appear either sheeted or solid. The photo was taken in April 2015.

John

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2016, 08:35:00 PM »
Daniel,
It may be a bit late in the build for this advice now, but I would strongly advise your to cover the flaps with balsa sheeting.  All attempts to use built up flaps covered with plastic film or silkspan have resulted in flaps that flex in maneuver making the airplane nearly impossible to trim properly.

At this point even 1/32 balsa sheeting covered with a layer of 1 oz glass cloth would be far superior and add only a little weight.  This is in my opinion as well as others that you will definitely have issues with these flaps as they are currently constructed.

This is a very nice airplane and I would hate to see it turn into a lemon because of flexi-flaps!

Randy Cuberly

Hi Randy.

I built the flaps up to save on some weight. They do feel quite stiff but I guess they are under tremendous forces in the air.

I might just make some solid ones from 3/8 sheet as per the plan.

I didn't see this message until just now. She's all painted now too darn it.

Daniel.
NZL7396

Offline Daniel_Munro

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2016, 01:59:25 AM »
Here she is all painted. A fairly simple scheme but it suits me just fine.

Just need to put wheels on, do leadout ends and dial in the timer then go fly on Saturday.

Will update on how it goes later.

NZL7396

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #47 on: February 04, 2016, 07:25:24 AM »
Looks great! Well done!
Steve

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #48 on: February 04, 2016, 10:47:18 AM »
I love it,  simple paint schemes are great in my book.   Now waiting for test flight reports. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Starcraft build
« Reply #49 on: February 04, 2016, 02:20:35 PM »
Hi Randy.

I built the flaps up to save on some weight. They do feel quite stiff but I guess they are under tremendous forces in the air.

I might just make some solid ones from 3/8 sheet as per the plan.

I didn't see this message until just now. She's all painted now too darn it.

Daniel.

Well, I guess at this point I wouldn't worry too much, just fly it and see!  The problem will most likely occur when flying in contest type wind.  It could make trimming more difficult.
Stiffness in flight surfaces should never be sacrificed for weight.  That's my opinion and I know it's shared by many other stunt fliers!  I had a Magnum many years ago with built up flaps much like the ones on your airplane.  The plane simply would not trim properly and did strange things sometimes that were not predictable.  Bob Whitely was the first that said "I think your flaps are flexing".  I've learned over many years not to ignore Bob's advice even though at the time I didn't think it was the problem.  I replace the flaps finally and the airplane became a great flier wind and all.  Since then I've been a strong proponent of stiff and straight control surfaces.  It always makes an airplane more manageable, especially in wind...Do we fly in wind??? LL~ LL~
I also know that many of the top fliers go to great lengths to build very stiff flaps and control systems...there definitely is a reason!

Incidentally, the airplane looks great!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ


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