slowing it down a bit

[cory colquhoun]

 any tips on slowing plane down a little,when I watch some of the guys fly on yt it seems their planes are flying smooth and effortlessly and they have plenty of time for each stunt.i use 60foot lines on my .35 size models and its a bit quick for me as im still learning,they all pull fairly well ,should I use longer lines

[gene poremba]

 You can try experimenting with different props. Going down on the pitch should help. Like you mentioned allready longer lines....Gene

[Don Jenkins]

What are your lap times?  Based on my memory of the reports coming from the NATS, the best of the best are flying around 5.2 to 5.4 second laps.  Based on my limited experience, each of my planes has its own characteristics based on size, weight, trim, etc.  Accordingly, my earlier planes that were crooked and heavy flew best at a higher speeds, but they didn't turn well, thats probably why I either crashed them or they stay on the wall.  My newer planes that are straighter and lighter fly well at slower speeds and turn better.  Longer lines will slow lap times and allow larger maneuvers, but line tension may be sacrificed.  Its all trial and error with each plane.  I have several sets of lines from 58' to 65'.  Each new plane I usually start with 60' lines and adjust from that based on feel.  Prop pitch will also control speed.  If you are using a 10-6 prop, try a 10-5, it will slow things down, but again, line tension may be sacrificed.  Good luck.

Don

[Brent Williams]

Kind of a vague question.  Some more details will get you better answers.
What is the plane, weight, engine, prop, fuel, line size (ie, .015"?), ect.

[Tim Wescott]

The short-short answer, and until you answer Brent's questions, all I can give: open the needle, maybe longer lines, and trim, trim, trim.

Basically, speed covers a wide swath of trimming sins, so if you can't just open the needle a bit and have the plane fly nice, then you need to change the plane somehow.  If you're lucky you just need to trim it; if you're not lucky you need to repair warps, or abandon it and start over.

You should be able to get lap times to 5 or 5.2 seconds with a well-built plane and fair trimming abilities.  If your plane is a twisted-up horror or if you built it around a brick then you won't be able to do even that.

Follow this link, and read all the articles on trim, starting with chapter 1.  If you want us to give you guided advise, rather than just bloviating randomly, answer Brent's questions. 

If I were to start a School of Stunt, I wouldn't let anyone fly a flapped stunter in competition until they were earning around 350 points per flight (I wonder what that would be in FAI rules?).  Flapless stunters are much easier to trim -- you take out at least half of the variables along with the flaps -- and having flaps on a plane isn't going to change your standings by all that much when you're down at that level.  It's much better to be able to concentrate on flying rather than on trimming and repair.

And: however fast the plane seems to be flying now, in a year, even if you don't slow it down, it'll seem to be flying much slower.  There comes a point if you practice hard enough where things start to click, and you just find yourself ahead of the plane instead of behind it.  At that point "improvement" becomes a matter of making shapes better and getting your bottoms where they belong, instead of a matter of making it through the pattern without a crash.

[Gerald Arana]

any tips on slowing plane down a little,when I watch some of the guys fly on yt it seems their planes are flying smooth and effortlessly and they have plenty of time for each stunt.i use 60foot lines on my .35 size models and its a bit quick for me as im still learning,they all pull fairly well ,should I use longer lines

All of what was already said.

And; Put a streamer on it (30 feet or so) and it will slow down and show you the shape of your manouvers.

Jerry

[Steve Helmick]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We'd need to know what design and weight it is to estimate what sort of lap times might work. We'd need to know what the engine is to suggest propellers that might be suitable. When in doubt, more info works better than not enough. And what altitude are you flying at?  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

And what altitude are you flying at?  Steve

Steve, for instance, flies at about negative six inches AGL, at least when he borrows my airplanes.

[Steve Helmick]

To be fair, Tim didn't tell me that the model would only fly level laps. Considering that I GAVE Tim a pretty good flying Fancherized Twister WITH engine and lines, I didn't expect such a blatant example of poor trim, or such a wide divergence from the gifted ride.

Fords have been known to catch fire, Tim...    Steve 

[Tim Wescott]

To be fair, Tim didn't tell me that the model would only fly level laps. Considering that I GAVE Tim a pretty good flying Fancherized Twister WITH engine and lines, I didn't expect such a blatant example of poor trim, or such a wide divergence from the gifted ride.

Fords have been known to catch fire, Tim...    Steve 

The trim was fine, you just don't move your hand enough to match the handle spacing.

[Don Jenkins]

The short-short answer, and until you answer Brent's questions, all I can give: open the needle, maybe longer lines, and trim, trim, trim.

Basically, speed covers a wide swath of trimming sins, so if you can't just open the needle a bit and have the plane fly nice, then you need to change the plane somehow.  If you're lucky you just need to trim it; if you're not lucky you need to repair warps, or abandon it and start over.

You should be able to get lap times to 5 or 5.2 seconds with a well-built plane and fair trimming abilities.  If your plane is a twisted-up horror or if you built it around a brick then you won't be able to do even that.

Follow this link, and read all the articles on trim, starting with chapter 1.  If you want us to give you guided advise, rather than just bloviating randomly, answer Brent's questions. 

If I were to start a School of Stunt, I wouldn't let anyone fly a flapped stunter in competition until they were earning around 350 points per flight (I wonder what that would be in FAI rules?).  Flapless stunters are much easier to trim -- you take out at least half of the variables along with the flaps -- and having flaps on a plane isn't going to change your standings by all that much when you're down at that level.  It's much better to be able to concentrate on flying rather than on trimming and repair.

And: however fast the plane seems to be flying now, in a year, even if you don't slow it down, it'll seem to be flying much slower.  There comes a point if you practice hard enough where things start to click, and you just find yourself ahead of the plane instead of behind it.  At that point "improvement" becomes a matter of making shapes better and getting your bottoms where they belong, instead of a matter of making it through the pattern without a crash.

Tim,

My first competition a few months after I learned to fly the full AMA stunt pattern was Brodak's in 2013 where I won Intermediate Stunt with a score of 341 against 17 other fliers.  Its a good thing you weren't in charge of anything or I would have quit the hobby by now.  Just saying!

Don

[Tim Wescott]

Tim,

My first competition a few months after I learned to fly the full AMA stunt pattern was Brodak's in 2013 where I won Intermediate Stunt with a score of 341 against 17 other fliers.  Its a good thing you weren't in charge of anything or I would have quit the hobby by now.  Just saying!

Interesting -- scores over 400 are not at all uncommon in Intermediate around here, although if you do it more than once a year people start whispering "Advanced" in your ear.  An Intermediate field with scores that low would be astonishing, even with Nats-quality judges judging the thing as if it were the Nats.

[cory colquhoun]

 cheers guys thanks for all the feedback, the plane is a re build from wrecked cougar stunt it now has profile fuse,  I can tell you it is straight but probably on the heavy side due to repairs,46in wspan,3and half oz fuel tank,.35 merco with muffler,10x6 prop,015 lines 60 foot,using a premixed fuel  10% nitro only one locally available,  weighs approx. 2lb,was a little tail heavy on first flight but seems to be trimmed better now, I know it has a lot to do with the pilot as my son has no problem with it , it just seems fast to me next time out I will time laps,might order some new lines and make them at 63ft,would this slow it much?

[Mark Scarborough]

three feet added will add roughly 3 tenths to the lap time as a rule of thumb,,

use a tach every flight so you can consistantly get the same rpm and eliminate one variable,,

[Tim Wescott]

Timing laps is good.  Longer lines seem to help with heavy planes -- my personal opinion is that it makes the corners larger, thus reducing induced drag.

Can you richen it and have it fly OK, or does it go loose on the lines when you do that?  If you're flying faster than 5.2 second laps and you can't keep it out on the end of the lines, then the plane has issues.

[cory colquhoun]

Timing laps is good.  Longer lines seem to help with heavy planes -- my personal opinion is that it makes the corners larger, thus reducing induced drag.

Can you richen it and have it fly OK, or does it go loose on the lines when you do that?  If you're flying faster than 5.2 second laps and you can't keep it out on the end of the lines, then the plane has issues.

next flight I will time laps , richen a bit and give it a try ,probably nervous pilot has a bit to do with it, was a bit tail heavy first up

[Tim Wescott]

next flight I will time laps , richen a bit and give it a try ,probably nervous pilot has a bit to do with it, was a bit tail heavy first up

If you're test-flying and you're concerned about line tension, don't start with a wingover!  I might start a new plane with a low wingover -- basically a regular wingover, but angled from vertical so that the plane doesn't get above 60 degrees or so at first.  Or I do high laps (above 45 degrees) both upright and inverted.  Then I do climbs and dives -- do a square corner from level to 45 degrees, level off, fly a lap, do the same thing going down.  Then do inside rounds and outside rounds.  If the plane doesn't seriously misbehave for any of those, then consider a real wingover and the rest of the pattern.

[john e. holliday]

I'm going to stick my foot into it again.  If the plane is feeling good an solid while doing the pattern, try longer lines which should help if you stay at same needle setting.  That is where a tach is handy.   If still too fast and solid try longer lines again.  Other wise try a different pitch prop which will change needle setting, tach again.  Each and every plane has a sweet spot of speed they like to fly at depending on all the variables.  Once you have the combination flying where you are happy, then have some one time your laps.  Until then I say leave the watch in the pit box.  I've watched many flights in which the plane was not happy because the person thought 5.2 to 5.4 laps were the answer.

The last time out I flew a plane I have flown many times and am happy with how it flies.  After I landed I was told I was doing 4.8 second laps and that was too fast.  Of course I'm hard headed and ignored them as on another plane some one opened the needle because they said the plane was too fast.  I almost lost it several times doing the vertical and over head maneuvers.  But, I set my needle by flying and then adjusting it. 

[Gerald Arana]

Cory,

Personally I wouldn't go to longer lines. I would try an 11 X 4 instead of the 10 X 6, or you could go to a 10 X 5.

Rule of thumb is double the Dia and add the pitch to see if the prop has the same "load" on the engine. I think I said that right, if not someone will (surely) correct me!

That's my two cents worth! Jerry

[Tim Wescott]

Personally I wouldn't go to longer lines. I would try an 11 X 4 instead of the 10 X 6, or you could go to a 10 X 5.
<etc.>

IMHO, the most important thing to do at this point is to find out what it's doing now, and if it's faster than 5.2 seconds then see how it does when it's slower.

I'm not at all familiar with the Merco so I don't know what should be used with it, but 11x4 sounds like a better prop for that sized plane than a 10-6.  However -- the 11x4 may be totally inappropriate for the engine.

[Mark Scarborough]

IMHO, the most important thing to do at this point is to find out what it's doing now, and if it's faster than 5.2 seconds then see how it does when it's slower.

I'm not at all familiar with the Merco so I don't know what should be used with it, but 11x4 sounds like a better prop for that sized plane than a 10-6.  However -- the 11x4 may be totally inappropriate for the engine.

erco is typically a 4-2-4 motor I believe , a 4 pitch prop may not be great?

[Tim Wescott]

(M)erco is typically a 4-2-4 motor I believe , a 4 pitch prop may not be great?

Oh right.  Dave Royer likes 'em, so they must be loud and low RPM.

If so, a 35 may not be enough engine, depending on weight.

Cory!  If we haven't made you jump through too many hoops already, go weigh that thing!  If you're serious about competing you want a scale anyway -- go get a marijuana er, postal scale and weigh that puppy, then report back.  I'm not sure, but anything over 45 ounces is probably on the porky side if the engine runs how I think it does.  (Or, someone who actually knows Mercos can weigh in).

[cory colquhoun]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We'd need to know what design and weight it is to estimate what sort of lap times might work. We'd need to know what the engine is to suggest propellers that might be suitable. When in doubt, more info works better than not enough. And what altitude are you flying at?  Steve

20 odd meters above sea level as where near the coast

[cory colquhoun]

 to be honest guys I probably will never compete as cl is basically unheard of where we live .I personally get great satisfaction building and flying cl, I suppose the challenge for myself and son(hopefully he sticks at it) is to fly an f2b stunt pattern ,there s a club approx 4hrs drive we hope to get down there this year.it is great how everyone is so helpful and willing to share there knowledge.

[Tim Wescott]

to be honest guys I probably will never compete as cl is basically unheard of where we live .I personally get great satisfaction building and flying cl, I suppose the challenge for myself and son(hopefully he sticks at it) is to fly an f2b stunt pattern ,there s a club approx 4hrs drive we hope to get down there this year.it is great how everyone is so helpful and willing to share there knowledge.

Maybe we need to have a World Wide Video Stunt contest, so folks like you can "go".  Replace the airplane's appearance points with a 0-20 score for the background and videography (so it'll be a team event).

[cory colquhoun]

Oh right.  Dave Royer likes 'em, so they must be loud and low RPM.

If so, a 35 may not be enough engine, depending on weight.

Cory!  If we haven't made you jump through too many hoops already, go weigh that thing!  If you're serious about competing you want a scale anyway -- go get a marijuana er, postal scale and weigh that puppy, then report back.  I'm not sure, but anything over 45 ounces is probably on the porky side if the engine runs how I think it does.  (Or, someone who actually knows Mercos can weigh in).

put the cougar on mary j scales and it came in a hair under 33oz,also went for quick fly to time laps 5.1 sec laps at level flight,it would seem its just the operator

[Tim Wescott]

put the cougar on mary j scales and it came in a hair under 33oz,also went for quick fly to time laps 5.1 sec laps at level flight,it would seem its just the operator

That engine should fly the plane just fine then.  That's a good weight.

5.1 seconds isn't bad.  You might try slowing it down some, just to see if there's a better combination of trim & whatnot.  But mostly, I think you just need to practice, practice, practice.  Eventually you'll be flying ahead of the plane instead of behind it; when that happens it'll seem like magic.

[cory colquhoun]

That engine should fly the plane just fine then.  That's a good weight.

5.1 seconds isn't bad.  You might try slowing it down some, just to see if there's a better combination of trim & whatnot.  But mostly, I think you just need to practice, practice, practice.  Eventually you'll be flying ahead of the plane instead of behind it; when that happens it'll seem like magic.

yes practice is what i need ,it didnt seems so bad now its trimmed right, good advice thankyou

[Chris Wilson]

If the engine is the Merco 35 of old then the classic way to slow the engine down a bit is to insert a thimble into the exhaust exit, assuming of course that you are running the standard  muffler.

This obviously restricts the engine, and slows it down.

[cory colquhoun]

If the engine is the Merco 35 of old then the classic way to slow the engine down a bit is to insert a thimble into the exhaust exit, assuming of course that you are running the standard  muffler.

This obviously restricts the engine, and slows it down.

yes it is an old model had since i was 14yo  sat in a toolbox for 25yrs,it has standard three piece muffler, what is thimble made of and look like?

   cory

[Chris Wilson]

yes it is an old model had since i was 14yo  sat in a toolbox for 25yrs,it has standard three piece muffler, what is thimble made of and look like?

   cory

Hey Cory,
                  I had a Merco 35 a while myself and if you have the vertically split 'clamshell' 3 piece muffler (if you could call it that since it so noisy) you can split the outer shell apart slightly and insert either a silicon DuBro muffler extension or a custom made turned down alloy short piece of pipe with flanges at both ends for placement in the rear - far easier to say 'thimble'.

What you want is something easily reversable, cheap and infinitely tuneable.
Just vary the ID of the thimble to vary the lap times.

Cheers.

[phil c]

Interesting -- scores over 400 are not at all uncommon in Intermediate around here, although if you do it more than once a year people start whispering "Advanced" in your ear.  An Intermediate field with scores that low would be astonishing, even with Nats-quality judges judging the thing as if it were the Nats.

Those are pretty typical scores at Brodaks for Intermediate.  The judges are quite good and go by the book.  Given the flying in intermediate 3-400 range indicates some practice and experience.  There probably have been quite a few people post scores below 200 in intermediate.

[Chris Wilson]

P.S just picture the classic sewing thimble, it has a flange or rolled edge at its base, use one small enough to be inserted into the outlet after opening up the clamshells - the rolled edge or flange prevents it from being ejected once the clam is closed.

Drill desired diameter hole and you are good to go.

A silicon muffler extension would work also as they have ribs that act the same as the flanges, if its a but too big in diameter then slit it along its length , removed a slither, roll tighter and insert - trim the excess length as you are not 'extending' the muffler.

Probably a sacrificial piece of PVC pipe would suffice until you decide if this is the mod for you.
(The engine should not overheat as these types of engine run no where near there maximum.)

Cheers.

[cory colquhoun]

P.S just picture the classic sewing thimble, it has a flange or rolled edge at its base, use one small enough to be inserted into the outlet after opening up the clamshells - the rolled edge or flange prevents it from being ejected once the clam is closed.

Drill desired diameter hole and you are good to go.

A silicon muffler extension would work also as they have ribs that act the same as the flanges, if its a but too big in diameter then slit it along its length , removed a slither, roll tighter and insert - trim the excess length as you are not 'extending' the muffler.

Probably a sacrificial piece of PVC pipe would suffice until you decide if this is the mod for you.
(The engine should not overheat as these types of engine run no where near there maximum.)
get what ur saying Chris il give it a try we have a lathe at work wouldnt take much to turn something up thanks for the input
Cheers.