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Author Topic: Sig Banshee, mods?  (Read 13689 times)

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Sig Banshee, mods?
« on: November 25, 2015, 04:14:27 PM »
I have a Sig Banshee kit which I'm hoping to build or have built this winter. I noticed in reading on this forum that some people recommend moving the wing forward an inch in the fuselage.  What is the value of that? Is there anything else that will make it a better stunter.  I am wondering if there is any value in trying to increase the air foil,  enlarge the elevator etc.   I'm open to suggestions. Currently, I'm thinking of putting an LA 40 in the nose.   Thanks ahead of time.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2015, 04:34:26 PM »
Moving the wing forward shortens the nose, thus reducing the tail weight required. It also lengthens the tail moment arm, which makes the stabilizer/elevators more effective, as well as helping with the CG. Enlarging the horizontal tail also makes for better stability and maneuverability. Thickening the wing is a lot of work. To do it right would require reworking both the nose and TE of the ribs to make capstrips work correctly, or just make all new ribs. Most guys don't like making ribs that much.

For a .40LA, I'd move the wing 1.5" to 2" forward...while making sure you leave enough room for the engine and tank. The SIG Fazer LG is a nice fit for the Banshee and Twister, especially if you narrow the legs a bit and bend as needed to get the prop clearance you need. Much better than wire LG.  H^^ Steve 
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2015, 05:08:59 PM »
The Banshee has a fairly thick wing to start with. I have built two and just shortened the nose on one and cut the fuse behind the wing and put in a 2" piece to extend the wing to tail. It flew great. I built another one and did nothing but shorten the nose a little and lengthen the stab elevator about and inch. I also put in half ribs on the leading edge. It also flew great. I have seen them fly completely stock with a Fox 35 that flew extremely well that way also. It is one of the better flying profiles in that size. I love my Magicians but the Banshee is a better flier. I had OS 40 FP's on both of them that I had tweeked a bit by blocking the boost port and raising the intake ports just a tad.
Jim Kraft

Offline Motorman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2015, 05:09:33 PM »
Check the wood the ribs are made from. Mine was really brittle and stringy and they broke allot as I was handling the wing during gluing/sanding ect. If I had it to build again I would make all new ribs and put a modern airfoil on it. The stock wing doesn't win the lift to weight game. The wood for the stab/elevator is pretty flimsy, I used 1/4". Banshee's a good beater plane, everybody should have one.

MM

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2015, 05:29:45 PM »
This one currently has an os 40fs four stroke. It had an os 40la and that's what i learned to fly the pattern with. The wing was moved forward about an inch, maybe a little more. Other than that and crash repairs, it's completely box stock. It's my go to practice plane. I fly it on 62 foot lines.

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2015, 06:22:21 PM »
Some months ago I released a Banshee Short kit and  Ground Fault short kit.  I moved the wing forward 1 1/2 " for the kit and it made a great difference in how the Banshee handled in the air.

Mike

Offline Target

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2015, 10:04:10 PM »
I just cut the nose back 1.5" on mine, and built it basically stock except for the bellcrank is "front line up".
It flies very nice. OS40fp massaged by my glow guru buddy, works perfectly.
Goodluck,
Chris
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2015, 10:24:52 PM »
Move the wing forward, increase the span of the horizontal surfaces by an inch or two, leave everything else alone.

Or better yet, do all of that and make a carbon fiber pushrod from flaps to elevator, and make sure that you can adjust the elevator to flap ratio -- if you just use the Sig plastic horns (I think they come with the kit) it's a matter of moving the rear clevis to a different hole.  Or, you can make your own horns and rope everything together with ball links.

If the kit came with a 3" bellcrank, change to a 4".

If you're an AMA member see if you can find the Fancherized Twister article (I can't remember the date -- maybe someone will comment).  Ted was originally suggesting modes that you could make to any kit using the Twister as an example.  It turned into a "Fancherized Twister".  But you can Fancherize just about any kit that has 1975 "numbers" by stretching the tail, increasing the area, and changing the styling if you so desire.
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Offline dave siegler

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2015, 07:10:44 AM »
people have suggested you modify everything the prebent controls, landing gear and glue a plug in the wing and cut and new wing access point.

Why buy a kid and toss 50% of it? 

I would say don't.  If you are going to do all that you would be better off getting something different, just getting a wing kit from SIG or building from plans.

Stock banchees fly well enough if they are light and not warped.  And unless you are a very good flier, you would be better off getting it done quickly and burning fuel.

All this stuff adds a lot to the build time and expense.  A "pro" control system may cost as much as the kit cost you.  That may be OK, I built a second airplane.

So After having built two, and flown some stockers and mods,  I would only make mods on areas that make it easier to build straight and get the balance correct. The rest is personal preference.

The nose is too long for proper balance with any modern motor and muffler.  Unless you are running a fox 35, lay your tank, and motor on the plans and figure out how much you can shorten it.

The controls are just fine, but a pain to set up with the stock HW.  Some like slower controls, and larger surfaces.  I used the stock stuff and it's just fine.  Always look for alignment of the controls and rigidity. Use a brace on the elevator pushrod.

My spars had twists  replaced them.

Carbon rods and ball links only make it easier to build and adjust later.   But I don't change them much anyway. 

If the wood for the elevator or rudder is rock heavy, consider replacing it with larger lighter surfaces.  A longer fuselage is nice, you can splice in some at the rear but then you are in for new controls.  I would not bother.


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Offline Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2015, 10:08:56 AM »
Dave Siegler, excellent advice.  Exactly what I would say and have done. H^^

For a novice/intermediate, the plane is fine as is.  Just build it like Dave says and have a ball. D>K
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2015, 11:41:10 AM »
    Mike Gretz has a web site that describes the history of most of the SIG designs. I'm sure you can even find mention of it here on Stunthanger. The Banshee was released after the SIG Super Chipmunk ( or in conjunction with it) and Mike Stott was asked to design a profile model that flew in a similar manor as the Chipmunk, and the Banshee was the answer to the request. It was designed with the Fox .35 stunt as the power plant because that was the most popular engine of the day and is pretty light for it's displacement, and was the reason for the longish nose moment. The Chipmunk nose is kind of long for the same reason I think current kits for both models still show the Fox .35 on the plans.
    I started to fly competition stunt back in 1987 or so, and it was common knowledge back then that if you used any other engine than the Fox .35 you would want to shorten the nose by an appropriate amount to help with balance. It may even be on the kit plans and instructions! We all read the instructions, don't we???? Been a long time since I have really looked at a set. The rest of the design is really pretty decent and typical for the day. The control set up as depicted was typical for the time period, and could be used as illustrated with a narrow line spacing to slow control movement down along with longer horns and proper balance. You can use the inner hole on the bell crank or drill one at 7/16" (I think) to get movement similar to a 4 inch bell crank and use hole spacing on the horns as needed. Line spacing control at the handle helps also. They didn't really have that back in the 70's.
    The Banshee can be a good flying model built pretty much stock as a rock, but like any other kit or design, you need to pay attention to details and careful alignment and balance are as important to that as it is on any other modern design. You can do all the described modifications, and if you mess up with one or two, you will still have an average flying airplane. And as far as kit contents and quality, you pays your money and takes your chances. Kit manufacturers do the best they can with what is available at the time to meet quotas and deadlines. We are kind of spoiled these days with the cottage industry kit makers with laser cutting and select contest grade wood, but we pay a premium for that also on the kit price.
    A modeler new to the hobby is better off keeping builds short and flying sessions long. As his skills and knowledge increase, the results of his efforts will improve with time. Like I always say, you don't learn to drive a car at Indianapolis on Memorial Day!
   Type at you later and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 12:07:32 PM »
Why buy a kid and toss 50% of it? 

Good point: just stick to scratch building.
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Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2015, 12:52:05 PM »
Hi Allen:

I fly every weekend with a guy who has an unmodified Banshee powered with an LA40, that puts up 500-point patterns. It does have a long nose relative to the rest of the moments so could probably benefit from taking maybe an inch off, since the modern engines with mufflers will weigh several ounces  more than an un-muffled Fox 35. If you are so inclined you could extend the rear of the fuselage and enlarge the stab/elevator, but may be better use of time and money to practice with the standard Banshee and then move up to a better, larger airplane like a Cardinal or Vector.

Offline Mike Anderson

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2015, 01:19:43 PM »
A popular set of modifications were developed by Jack Sheeks - making a Banshee into a Bansheeks --

http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/profiles-vs-built-up-fuselages/msg153486/#msg153486

The article suggests to shorten the nose by 3/4" -- I suggest even more, given the weight of current engine/muffler combinations.

I've shortened by 1 1/2" to accomodate some .40's w/muffler
Mike@   AMA 10086
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 01:37:14 PM »
I fly every weekend with a guy who has an unmodified Banshee powered with an LA40, that puts up 500-point patterns. It does have a long nose relative to the rest of the moments so could probably benefit from taking maybe an inch off, since the modern engines with mufflers will weigh several ounces  more than an un-muffled Fox 35. If you are so inclined you could extend the rear of the fuselage and enlarge the stab/elevator, but may be better use of time and money to practice with the standard Banshee and then move up to a better, larger airplane like a Cardinal or Vector.

Well, I have a Fancherized Twister with which I often put up 500+ point patterns with in competition.

I also have a 27 year old hand-me-down from Paul Walker with which I fly far better than with the Twister -- certainly enough to make up for not getting any appearance points.  So a different airplane CAN fly better.

If the modifications aren't going to take much time they're worth doing, because a better plane WILL fly better.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2015, 01:42:34 PM »
Well, I have a Fancherized Twister with which I often put up 500+ point patterns with in competition.

I also have a 27 year old hand-me-down from Paul Walker with which I fly far better than with the Twister -- certainly enough to make up for not getting any appearance points.  So a different airplane CAN fly better.

If the modifications aren't going to take much time they're worth doing, because a better plane WILL fly better.

Tim,
Nice to see some sanity brought back to this thread.  I was beginning to believe I'd been doing this thing all wrong for 65 years!   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2015, 01:59:12 PM »
  Well one thing to keep in mind is, an airplane, which ever it is, might not make you a better pilot! If you are not willing to put in the time, study and practice, a modified ANYTHING won't get you a trophy! But a simple, straight and properly trimmed model coupled with practice and good coaching CAN and has for many people. I have done it and seen it done by others.
   HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2015, 09:15:00 PM »
Thanks guys for all the great info.  I found it very insightful to find out that this kit and many others were made with a Fox 35 in mind.  I think I know what I will do with this kit.  I will especially modify the fuselage in one manner or another.  Not sure about enlarging the horizontal tail parts.  Thanks again for the opinions, they why's and the wherefores of modifying a Banshee. 

Offline Target

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2015, 10:37:41 PM »
Just cutting the nose back 1.5" is a good start.
Then all the other things like building straight and with good attention to detail will leave you with a good flying plane.
I used the "ATF" (All Tubes Forward) Uniflow tank on recommendation of my engine guru guy, and the plane hasn't skipped a beat.
An adjustable tank mount is also a mod I did at his request.
All good.
Search Banshee and you should find my thread with some pictures.
In a nutshell though, the few mods I made and the plane flies great.

Good luck on yours.

R,
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2015, 04:42:08 AM »
Hi Chris,

I just read your thread.  That is encouraging.  It looks like the Banshee is a great choice for what I want to do.  By the way, your plane looks great.

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2015, 06:24:55 AM »
Lat two points:

Make sure your bellcrank mount is solidly installed.  I've seen them pull out.  It should not just be mounted into balsa ribs alone.

If you use the nylon flap horn, make sure that your pushrod has a washer soldered onto it so it won't push through.  When the plane is new, no problem, but if you fly it for very long the nylon seems to get a bit flexible and then: surprise!

Also, the brass tube in fuselage thing with split wire gear doesn't last very long.  If you fly in grass much or if you have some rough landings, the brass will split and the hole will wallow out leaving you with floppy gear.  Substitute a steel tube for the brass or go to duralum gear.

Scott


Offline Will Davis

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2015, 06:42:01 AM »
Stock sig banshe's were good enough to get second and third place at bob shaw event at joe Nall, the one on the right  was powered by a stock evo 36, I helped billy trim it, it has been along time since I flew one.  Stock , built straight and fairly light, with proper balance, it could place at most well attended advanced class,

You can see how long the nose is, designed  for fox 35 , it is real long , but ok with super light evo motor ,

Will Davis
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Eric Viglione

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2015, 07:00:30 AM »
Stock sig banshe's were good enough to get second and third place at bob shaw event at joe Nall, the one on the right  was powered by a stock evo 36... SNIP

You can see how long the nose is, designed  for fox 35 , it is real long , but ok with super light evo motor ,

Great pic and nice banshee... But the length of that fuel tubing just makes me go all kinds of twitchy.
I guess if it works, it works, but it just looks sooooo wrong, heh.  n~

EricV

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2015, 07:07:37 AM »
Allen,

Here's a model I built around the Sig Banshee wing.

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Offline Target

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2015, 07:45:51 AM »
Thanks Allen!
Good luck with yours.
I'm sure it will turn out great for you.
R,
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2015, 12:03:03 PM »
Hi Allen,

I have a really wild and crazy idea!  Why not use a good condition engine with a tongue muffler that the model was designed for?  The engine?? Why a Fox .35......  One of them will fly a Banshee just fine and no modifications are needed.  Where will the Fox .35 give you problems??  In gale force winds you might need some more power.  Build the kit light (don't try for a 20 point finish) and you will fly the pattern just fine!

You can get a bolt on or strap on tongue muffler and you will have minimal balance problems.

Naw, probably too crazy..........

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2015, 01:02:02 PM »
Quote
You can get a bolt on or strap on tongue muffler and you will have minimal balance problems.

Bill,

I like the weight and look of the Fox 35. And as you mentioned, really nicely polished tongue mufflers are available for the Fox 35, bolt on, from Scott B. Riese.

My choice for the Flite Streak I built!

Here's Scott's muffler. Makes any model look better!

Charles


Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Will Davis

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2015, 01:48:10 PM »
Great pic and nice banshee... But the length of that fuel tubing just makes me go all kinds of twitchy.
I guess if it works, it works, but it just looks sooooo wrong, heh.  n~

EricV

Eric,

I agree completely with your thoughts on the fuel tank distance from the engine. Billy is a rc flyer that built the banshee and came to joe Nall  with the u flown banshee..

Twitchy is a good word for how I felt  when I first saw it, billy had done a great job building a straight and light model. We all pitched in helping him get lines set, a good handle,  control throw equal, balance and other bench trimming done to get the model flying . I did most of the pattern after a couple trim flights

I was amazed how good the motor ran on the first couple flights, we never changed the tank because the engine run was that good, we had other issues that were more important.

All of the modifications mentioned above are good advice and will make a good design better, but a stock banshee can still fly the pattern with proper trim and reliable power.
Will Davis
"Carolina Gang"

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2015, 02:00:34 PM »
All of the modifications mentioned above are good advice and will make a good design better, but a stock banshee can still fly the pattern with proper trim and reliable power.

Something I didn't ask Allen that pertains to this -- how often do you crash badly?  If the answer is "never" then the extra time spent changing things around will be used over a great number of flights, each of which will be a bit better than a flight without the mods.  If the answer is "often", then you may get in a handful of flights before you're going to all that effort over again.

Let that weight your decision one way or another.
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2015, 06:10:03 PM »
Sounds like wise counsel Tim.  I don't know how to assess how often I crash.  I know it's enough that I have become very cautious and tentative in working on maneuvers.  It was probably twice this summer, right before Brodaks.  But I don't fly that often.  Any changes I make will be easy ones.  My brother does my building. Right now, he is retired and has lots of time. 

Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2015, 06:21:13 PM »
Charles, I like that plane you built around the Banshee wing. 

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2015, 06:26:30 PM »
Some crashing is to be expected.  I made the mistake of starting out trying to put my bottoms right at 5 feet.  That's all well and good, except that at the time I could place my bottoms about +/- 7 feet or so of where I wanted them.  Someone suggested to me that I just put my bottoms at 10 feet, and then I stopped crashing nearly so often.

I just got into the habit of placing my bottoms high enough so that the occasional "oops" pullout didn't involve unauthorized contact with the ground, yet always trying to put them lower and lower.  This left me with safely doing the pattern with too-high bottoms.  Interestingly enough, for most of last year it left me flying too low -- I had to consciously bring my bottoms up to five feet.
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Offline Target

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2015, 06:32:34 PM »
Sounds like wise counsel Tim.  
My brother does my building. Right now, he is retired and has lots of time. 
It sounds like we need to think of more mods to keep your builder busy then, Allen! HAHAHA!

I'd probably recommend to select the power you want, make sure it runs well, then decide what to do (in other words, if you have a light Fox .35, forget the nose shortening, but if you have a heavier mill you're going with, then cut it back!)...

That's basically what I did, my C/L adviser bought and modded a used OS .40 for me, and knowing it would be heavy, he told me to cut the nose back 1.5", which was about perfect.
If I were to build another, I "might" extend the fuse, or make a slightly larger fin and horizontal. I had noticed that the stab seems a bit smaller than others on the Banshee, and my C/L buddy said, "Yeah, its a but smaller than some, but it works fine", when I asked about it.
And, it is fine.
We are flying on 60' lines.

R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Allen Eshleman

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2015, 06:43:33 PM »
I have a vacant LA 40 and some dubious Fox's and several McCoys. Wish I had an LA25 or and FP 25, but have been passing on buying one.  I see them occasionally on the Bay.

Offline Target

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2015, 06:58:18 PM »
I'd just pick one that is reasonable, and mostly that will run reliably, and then tell your bro to start making dust based on what's going on there.
Heck, he can start on the wing regardless, without any real mods, other than what has been mentioned about making the bell crank sound.
I turned mine around and the flap pushrod exit's inboard because of it. No big deal, works great. My C/L adviser said I should make the up line forward, and apparently there is some theoretical advantage to doing this (don't kill me if you disagree, people!!!!). I just followed his instructions:

Up line forward
Cut off 1.5" from nose
Bush lead outs on bellcrank
More elevator throw than flaps
Silicone Uniflow tank to sliding height mount
Add tip weight box
2 degree wedges out thrust under engine mounts

Check, check, check, check, check, check, check!

Showed up one Friday to Whittier Narrows with my C/L Adviser. Freaking OS.40 FP started on the FIRST FLIP after being stored in a plastic bag in my shop for like two years! IMPRESSIVE!!!!!
Ran perfect on the first flight, 4-2-4 running through maneuvers.
I spent the next few weeks tweaking a small twist out of the wing a little at a time, and it flies fantastic now.
I really couldn't be happier with it.

I only pancaked it one time so far, Tim Westcott Syndrome (TWS), where I made a loop with a -0.5' pull out. Ooops!
Minor damage, wheel poked a hole in the wing, busted off the rudder, tail wheel angry, etc. About 1.5 hours in the shop, and only my ego was still damaged.
All good!
R,
Chris
 
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Bill Smith

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2015, 08:41:32 AM »
All good suggestions I have my third Banshee now and they all flew (fly) good (well?). This last one was built to the plans and has a fox 35 shinny case on it.
 the one small change from stock was that I did not cut the leading, trailing and spars to length but just sanded the ends even and spaced the ribs out a little.
it gave me a 52inch span, a few more squares and thus less wing load (I tend to build heavy).
I worked out well for me.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2015, 08:35:02 PM »
This may be an interesting thread to read, particularly where it gets to talking about the performance differences.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/upcoming-test-on-two-twisters/msg426890/?topicseen#msg426890
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mike Scholtes

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2015, 10:01:36 PM »
Oops, the Banshee flown by the guy I fly with every weekend, including today, actually has 1.5 inches taken off the nose and 2.0 inches added to the span of the stab and elevator. I was wrong about it being unmodified. Fuselage length behind the wing is standard. From what I have seen I would recommend these simple mods. Power is an LA40 with ST or maybe Randy Smith NVA, not OS. Not sure what prop he uses, but I use an APC 11x4 on the LA40 set up same way in my Smoothie. We had "stunt heaven" weather for a few hours this morning in the Oakland CA area. Tee shirts and sunglasses. Well, pants and shoes too.

Offline ringmaster

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Re: Sig Banshee, mods?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2015, 03:10:30 PM »
Hello, I been building and flying Sig Banshee and Sig Twister over 40 years and I am still building them and flying to me they are the best flying airplanes and the easiest to build. I just cut 1.5 inch off the nose of the Banshee and use LA 40 for power. I have use lot different engines on Banshee and Twister. I guess you can not teach a dog new tricks. I just love those 2 airplanes. When crash them they are easy to fix. They are my 2 favorite airplanes the best profile airplanes ever made by Sig I think . Thanks ringmaster.


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