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Author Topic: Registration Required of CL Included  (Read 38536 times)

Offline david beazley

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2015, 06:03:28 PM »
The list I saw of "advisors" on the committee was about 20 or so organizations, AMA was just one of them including Google.  A lot more people with more juice than our august representative organization.
It's only paranoia if they aren't really after you.
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Offline johnt4051

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2015, 06:07:07 PM »
It seems to me that it would be easy to overract to this.

What they are asking us to do is register, get a number and stick it on our airplanes.

You could refuse, save $5 over three years -- and get kicked out of a flying session because an official with the park or airport where you fly finds out you're not registered.

Or you could get the number, stick it on your plane, and go flying like always.

Seems like not a big deal to me.

--jt
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Offline john ohnimus

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2015, 06:07:16 PM »
I just don't see our models being affected by these rules. We are not even capable of operating our models in the N.A.S.  This a lot of conflicting statements about control of the models. The AMA says "Like a transmitter".
Hard Tellin'....  Not Knowin'

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Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2015, 06:13:53 PM »
Has anyone else read: "Small UAS Notice of Proposal Rule Making" (faa(dot)gov/uas/nprm)? Second paragraph begins "New rule would not apply to model aircraft". Does this mean the FAA in an unexpected moment of clarity actually differentiates between model aircraft and drones? Could control line models not be considered drones after all? Probably too good to hope for however a clarification is needed here. ???  
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Offline peabody

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2015, 06:14:44 PM »

AMA and the FAA Registration Process

Today the FAA announced plans for a model aircraft registration process to begin next week. AMA was a member of the task force that helped develop recommendations for this registration rule and argued throughout the process that registration makes sense at some level but only for those operating outside the guidance of a community-based organization or flying for commercial purposes.

Unfortunately, the new FAA registration rule does not include our advice. The rule is counter to Congress's intent in the Special Rule for Model Aircraft and makes the registration process an unnecessary burden for all of our members who have been operating safely for decades.

While we are disappointed with the new registration rule and still maintain that AMA members should be exempt from registration, the rule is being implemented over AMA objections. Therefore, we want to provide you with important information about the registration rule and how AMA members can comply with the new federal requirements:

All aircraft that are flown using a ground control system, such as a transmitter, are required to participate. This includes fixed-wing aircraft, not just multirotors or drones.
 Any pilot flying models weighing between .55 pounds (or 250 grams) and 55 lbs is required to register.
 You will not be required to register every aircraft individually. You only need to register yourself and can affix one registration number to all your aircraft.
 You must mark all aircraft with your registration number. The number can be inside the aircraft, such as a battery hatch - but should not require tools to access.
 The FAA plans to launch the online registration website on Monday, December 21.
 There is a $5 fee to register, which is waived if you register within the first 30 days.
 You only need to register once every 3 years.

We are still working out the logistics for this process. Some details are still being discussed, including:

We are seriously discussing with the FAA a system where your AMA number could be used as your federal registration number as well. At this point, this is only a proposal and details are not yet finalized.
 At this time, AMA members will not automatically be registered when the registration website launches next week. However, we are in conversations with the FAA about the best way to streamline the registration process for AMA members going forward.

This is an ongoing process and we will continue to provide updates on the registration rule. Stay tuned to modelaircraft.org/gov, social media and your email for the latest news on the registration process.

Thank you,
 AMA Government Relations and Advocacy Team

Online RC Storick

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2015, 06:16:22 PM »
Just think of the money this will generate in the first day. 1500000 drones x $5.00 is $7,500,000 and you think it's not a money grab?
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #56 on: December 14, 2015, 06:26:20 PM »
You might notice it says the first 30 days will be FREE.  Rather that 1.5 million will sign up- more likely 1500.  Not much of a hair-on-fire thing......

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Jim Roselle

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #57 on: December 14, 2015, 06:53:33 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and sign up now while it's free. That way if the law is still in place three years from now I can start saving towards the $5 re-up. I'm sure I can cut back somewhere and have the funds in place when the time comes.

Jim

Offline peabody

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #58 on: December 14, 2015, 07:39:27 PM »
The easiest way that the FAA could put some meaning into enforcement would be to show up at contests....

Offline jfv

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2015, 07:45:02 PM »
What's to prevent some non-law abiding no-gooder from stealing my number, putting it on his drone and doing some bad things?  If all they find is the drone, I'm in trouble!
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Offline Garf

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #60 on: December 14, 2015, 08:05:44 PM »
I sent an Email to the AMA and this is the response:

« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 11:19:19 PM by Garf »

Offline beercamel

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #61 on: December 14, 2015, 08:27:00 PM »
Great idea.  And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.  

No it would NOT!!

The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also..  before a lot worse thing happened..     This is only a difference in degree..  boiling the frog one degree at a time.. 

American people (hopefully NOT Sheeple..) need to wake up..
ALL AIRSPEED and NO HEADING is how most people plan their lives..   PICK a HEADING!.. And you eventually get to where you want to go!

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2015, 08:34:02 PM »
I sent an Email to the ASMA and this is the response:



    Does the regulation actually say that somewhere?

     Brett

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2015, 08:49:05 PM »
No it would NOT!!

The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also..  before a lot worse thing happened..     This is only a difference in degree..  boiling the frog one degree at a time.. 

American people (hopefully NOT Sheeple..) need to wake up..

Actually it would be nothing at all like that. It would be like registering your car, which is not the same as making an entire race register because those in power fear the perceived influence of said race.
 

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2015, 08:54:12 PM »
Guys, i was just over on RC GROUPS reading the threads on that forum.  There are some upset people over there and some really good posts on this.

Mike

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2015, 08:54:44 PM »
things that require registration and things that don't

Birds Birds! Birds damage airplanes and are not registered.  

google bird strike some time

then google drone strike.  

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2015, 08:58:05 PM »
No it would NOT!!

The Jews in Nazi Germany had to register also..  before a lot worse thing happened..     This is only a difference in degree..  boiling the frog one degree at a time.. 

   OH, good Lord!  It's irritating, it's certainly governmental overreach, and in general should be opposed.  But registering a model airplane is a far cry from *planning the genocide of an entire race/religion* using the most fundamentally idiotic, evil, and racist supposed justifications imaginable. It absolutely IS NOT a matter of degree, it is fundamentally different.


     Brett

    


Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #67 on: December 14, 2015, 09:04:57 PM »
The easiest way that the FAA could put some meaning into enforcement would be to show up at contests....

Let's see if a couple of field reps show up at Joe Nall and try to make an example out of someone.

Mike

Offline Target

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #68 on: December 14, 2015, 09:16:13 PM »
Maybe if the FAA does show up, we could make an example of THEM!

I for one am getting sick of government retardation.

We need to start drug testing the government officials. They are clearly smoking something thinking that this new regulation is going to make the NAS safer from the "drone problem".
Just as with gun control, the problem children will continue, and the others will pay the price.
This is SO RETARDED.
And the AMA is weak for not taking a less PC stance. Instead, they wanted to suck up to the Multi Rotor pilots, cause they are their future.
WEAK!
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Chris
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #69 on: December 14, 2015, 09:28:35 PM »
Maybe if they do show up, we could make an example of THEM!


     Yes, that will certainly show us to be a mature and responsible group, qualified to police ourselves.

    I think we need to step off the ledge. It's one thing to challenge the ruling and there are some pretty clear avenues on which to challenge it - including black-letter law exempting us entirely for FAA regulation. Assaulting, verbally or electronically harassing, or otherwise confronting individual agents in the field is *absolutely the worst possible thing you could do*. If for no other reason is that it justifies any future arguments about reining us in.

   This is not the Stamp Act, this isn't even the Boston Tea Party (where, I might add, no one was assaulted), and the FAI isn't King George. You have abundant means of redress, you just have to avail yourself of them.

    This *is* a classic example of leftist/liberal approach to government, where laws are passed that pass the responsibility for regulation to unelected, and unaccountable bureaucrats. It is rampant and shouldn't happen. But you can't put a halt to that by shouting at FAA field reps.

      Brett

Offline Larry Borden

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #70 on: December 14, 2015, 09:30:10 PM »
I fly CL on my own land. Don't fly competitive, so the AMA and FAA can just kid my a..

Offline Jason Greer

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #71 on: December 14, 2015, 09:35:31 PM »
What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats?  I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?
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Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2015, 09:37:30 PM »
Yeah Dave. My grandson fly's pipelines and had a bird strike bad enough to have to replace the wing on his plane. That was three or four weeks ago. Then saturday after thanksgiving he blew a cyl. and had to make an emergency landing. All went well. He still loves his job.
Jim Kraft

Offline Target

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2015, 09:40:05 PM »
What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats?  I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?

That is a perfect example of how ridiculous this whole thing is. Its never going to be enforced, in my opinion, and I will be willing to bet that eventually C/L is exempt as it should be.
The fact that it made it this far shows how much trouble we are in with our elected government today.
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Offline Target

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2015, 09:44:08 PM »
     Yes, that will certainly show us to be a mature and responsible group, qualified to police ourselves.

    I think we need to step off the ledge. It's one thing to challenge the ruling and there are some pretty clear avenues on which to challenge it - including black-letter law exempting us entirely for FAA regulation. Assaulting, verbally or electronically harassing, or otherwise confronting individual agents in the field is *absolutely the worst possible thing you could do*. If for no other reason is that it justifies any future arguments about reining us in.

   This is not the Stamp Act, this isn't even the Boston Tea Party (where, I might add, no one was assaulted), and the FAI isn't King George. You have abundant means of redress, you just have to avail yourself of them.

    This *is* a classic example of leftist/liberal approach to government, where laws are passed that pass the responsibility for regulation to unelected, and unaccountable bureaucrats. It is rampant and shouldn't happen. But you can't put a halt to that by shouting at FAA field reps.

      Brett

Yes, Brett, of course I would never act on these thoughts, however, I'm not promising that a sharp tongued comment wouldn't be heard from me.
This whole thing is ridiculous for the RC side of things (in MY opinion), but its just plain stupid for C/L.

I'll bet they rescind the C/L plane requirements, but they should have never included them in the first place.
Rant almost off.
;-)
Regards,
Chris
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Offline beercamel

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2015, 10:04:54 PM »
Actually it would be nothing at all like that. It would be like registering your car, which is not the same as making an entire race register because those in power fear the perceived influence of said race.
 


Are you kidding ME!!!  a $25,000.00 fine if you don't register your kids toy!...
ALL AIRSPEED and NO HEADING is how most people plan their lives..   PICK a HEADING!.. And you eventually get to where you want to go!

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2015, 10:21:00 PM »
Are you kidding ME!!!  a $25,000.00 fine if you don't register your kids toy!...

No, I'm not kidding you. An estimated 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust. A $25,000 dollar fine, while admittedly harsh, pales in comparison.

Offline beercamel

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2015, 10:23:54 PM »
  OH, good Lord!  It's irritating, it's certainly governmental overreach, and in general should be opposed.  But registering a model airplane is a far cry from *planning the genocide of an entire race/religion* using the most fundamentally idiotic, evil, and racist supposed justifications imaginable. It absolutely IS NOT a matter of degree, it is fundamentally different.


     Brett

    


IT IS NOT fundamentally different.. . its FREEDOM and  PROPERTY RIGHTS!



The point is,  the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this..  and YOU are acting as an apologist for it..   Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM?  SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!!  You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next..

This will kill model aviation as we know it..  I guess I am about to get out of model aviation..

As a processional pilot (airline Captain for a major carrier), I have over 20,000 hours of military and civilian flying..  I have too much to lose in this.. now that the FAA has jurisdiction over model aircraft..  its just too much of a risk..  I can't have a hobby that can endanger my livelihood through a certificate action against my Pilots license from a model airplane incident..   Or a PAPERWORK ERROR, OR SUSPICION of a 'violation'..   I have EXTENSIVE experience with the FAA..  and I can tell you they are ANYTHING but reasonable...  

Just google the Bob Hoover incident.. ( I was peripherally involved with that!.. so I am aware of a lot of inside information)

What going to happen now is there will be a huge number of people who are non-compliant..  that's when the FAA will SEVERELY enforce a couple of example cases to scare the sheep back into the pasture..


Bhaaa!  Bhaa!  I think I hear sheep!
ALL AIRSPEED and NO HEADING is how most people plan their lives..   PICK a HEADING!.. And you eventually get to where you want to go!

Offline pmackenzie

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2015, 10:36:19 PM »
What about foreign competitors, such as Kaz and Bene, who come over to fly in the nats?  I wonder how they would be handled? Will they need to get a temporary clearance to participate?

I fly in the US contests 4 or 5 times a year, both C/L and R/C.
From what I have read it is not possible for me to get a registration number.
So does that mean I can no longer fly in th US, or even if I can will the guy at the border know this and let me cross with my "drones"?

It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out for you guys,I just hope it doesn't stop me from competing in the US  >:(

Pat MacKenzie
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2015, 10:38:28 PM »
IT IS NOT fundamentally different.. . its FREEDOM and  PROPERTY RIGHTS!



The point is,  the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this..  and YOU are acting as an apologist for it..   Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM?  SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!!  You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next

    I do not think this regulation is at all reasonable, it is ridiculous.  But even if they came around and confiscated all modeling supplies and burned them in a heap on the national mall, it's a huge leap in both principle and in result to *attempting to exterminate people on an industrial scale* because of some little twit's delusions of racial purity.

   Even you don't believe that the two are equivalent, or at least, I desperately hope you don't.

    And don't get on your high horse about how serious you are about conservative principles *with me*, of all people. If you really understand what the founders wanted, you should be able to see several built-in legal approaches to seek redress. One hint - having an internet hissy fit isn't among them.

      Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2015, 10:41:43 PM »
Sounds like everyone needs to go back and reread the E-Mail several more times.    It mentions air craft within the weight range that are controlled by radio signals.  Just like the guns that kill people by themselves, only the honest people will register them.   Now look at what they do when they do catch a person who has guns not registered,  they slap their hands, take the guns and let them go.   I guess my RC planes will stay in the rafters.   So if some pilot flying a full size plane gets in the path of my CL plane that is attached by a strap and 65 foot flying lines,  who is at fault.    Too bad these so called educated idiots don't get out in the real world and see what is going on.
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Online Dave Rolley

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2015, 10:49:23 PM »
In the Interim Final Rule published 12/13/2015

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf

In Section B "Definitions" on page 39 the term "Unmanned Aircraft" is defined with the following discussion:

(Quoted without the footnotes)

In the sUAS Operation and Certification NPRM, the FAA proposed to define “unmanned aircraft” as “an aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft.”  This proposed definition would codify the statutory definition of “unmanned aircraft” specified in Public Law 112-95.

The Management Association for Private Photogrammetric Surveyors (MAPPS) stated that the definition of “unmanned aircraft” needs to be clarified because the current definition leaves open the possibility that paper airplanes, model airplanes, model rockets, and toys could be considered unmanned aircraft. The Aviators Model Code of Conduct Initiative stated that this definition and the definition of small unmanned aircraft may permit infant passengers and asked
the FAA to amend the definition to categorically prohibit the carriage of passengers on an unmanned aircraft.

Lastly, an individual said that because 14 CFR 1.1 defines aircraft as “a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air,” only a “whole” or “complete” aircraft can meet this definition for registration purposes.

The definition of unmanned aircraft as “an aircraft operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft” is a statutory definition, and as such, this rule will finalize that definition as proposed.

(End of Quote)

It strikes me that even though the discussion envisions an "unmanned aircraft" as an aircraft that does not have a human on or in the aircraft physically moving the controls, we do control the aircraft through direct human intervention with hand motions via physical cables connected to the control surfaces of the aircraft.  Just like moving the stick in the cockpit of an airplane. If fact with the AMA's definition of a control line model there is no other way to control the flight path of a control line model.

I don't believe the registration requirement applies to control line aircraft.

Dave

Offline beercamel

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #82 on: December 14, 2015, 10:53:08 PM »
   I do not think this regulation is at all reasonable, it is ridiculous.  But even if they came around and confiscated all modeling supplies and burned them in a heap on the national mall, it's a huge leap in both principle and in result to *attempting to exterminate people on an industrial scale* because of some little twit's delusions of racial purity.

   Even you don't believe that the two are equivalent, or at least, I desperately hope you don't.

    And don't get on your high horse about how serious you are about conservative principles *with me*, of all people. If you really understand what the founders wanted, you should be able to see several built-in legal approaches to seek redress. One hint - having an internet hissy fit isn't among them.

      Brett


Brett,

'With me'  what that's supposed to mean..

Get SERIOUS...  THINK... You and EVERYBODY else  knows I NEVER suggest this ONE rule is going to result in genocide..   I simply was using a severe example of how the loss of freedom gradually becomes accepted and therefore worse.. much more

I am NOT a conservative.. don't insult me..

ALL AIRSPEED and NO HEADING is how most people plan their lives..   PICK a HEADING!.. And you eventually get to where you want to go!

Offline Jason Greer

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #83 on: December 14, 2015, 10:55:41 PM »
But Doc, it's right there plain and simple in the FAQ's page. Both tethered and untethered vehicles are included in this regulation. The way it is written, if your CL model exceeds 250 grams, then it must be registered.

On the following link, scroll to the "what's covered" section
https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/
El Dorado, AR
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Offline beercamel

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #84 on: December 14, 2015, 10:56:27 PM »
In the Interim Final Rule published 12/13/2015

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf



I don't believe the registration requirement applies to control line aircraft.

Dave

Dave thanks for the interesting post..  the only problem is do you have the resources to defend it in court?  I don't!..   The FAA is like the IRS.. 'guilty until proven innocent'..

ALL AIRSPEED and NO HEADING is how most people plan their lives..   PICK a HEADING!.. And you eventually get to where you want to go!

Offline Balsa Butcher

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #85 on: December 14, 2015, 11:07:29 PM »
I just returned from a meeting of my model club...the Woodland/Davis Aeromodelers. Mainly R/C of course. One member is a full time (as in works for)  FAA safety officer and maintenance inspector. He also flies R/C planes, helicopters and at one time, control line. He received a briefing from Washington last week prior to the official announcement.

His understanding is that the FAA is not including Control Line models in this program because they are not radio controlled and are tethered. Hope he is right on this. Unfortunately all R/C models that fall into the weight guidelines, drones or not, are included. Also, the current proposal was pushed through in order to have something in effect in anticipation to the post X-mas drone population boom. There are on-going talks to refine the directive. One topic being discussed is the allowing of AMA numbers to serve as FAA registration numbers. 8)
Pete Cunha
Sacramento CA.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2015, 11:25:30 PM »
Brett,

'With me'  what that's supposed to mean..

Get SERIOUS...  THINK... You and EVERYBODY else  knows I NEVER suggest this ONE rule is going to result in genocide..   I simply was using a severe example of how the loss of freedom gradually becomes accepted and therefore worse.. much more

I am NOT a conservative.. don't insult me..

    OK, then please say what you actually mean, because you certainly did equate the two above.

     Note also that conservatives are the only people even claiming to fight this sort of facist overreach. Certainly not the Democrats, who *love* endless regulation. FDR more-or-less invented the idea.  

    And to be clear, what you should be ranting about is the fact that is it supposed to be very difficult to create new laws, and that the lawmakers are supposed to be accountable. However it dawned on someone that it would be a super-great idea to create non-legislative regulatory bodies via legislation, which permitted the legislators to delegate the responsibility for writing the regulations (and ostensibly, not have to be experts) to others. These others would not be elected nor would they be directly accountable to the voters. The had the authorization to raise revenue, as well. This deflects liability for the results of the regulations from the elected officials so they do not get the backlash. The agencies *always* grow endlessly, they never end. For example, the Rural Electrification Authority was created in 1936 to help bring electricity to farms. That goal has long been accomplished, however, the agency still exists (as the Rural Utilities Service) bit still has a budget, employees, an org chart, etc.).

    This approach has led to exactly the same bureaucracy overhead as is found in other countries, like Great Britain, as the "civil servant" class. So now you have endless agencies churning out endless regulation, with absolutely no accountability, and no politician or elected official to punish for the results. And as used in recent years, accountable to "executive orders" where an individual not charged with *any* legislative authority can influence the agencies and essentially dictate their actions - again with no accountability.

    This is what you should be on about. The completely unjustified, and fundamentally illegal, nature of this arrangement is anathema to liberty. NONE of it should exist, NO law/regulation should be outside the direct accountability of elected officials, and they should not be able to defer responsibility for the actions of nameless and faceless organizations.

 In a properly running US government, it would be nearly impossible for Congress to enact the endless stream of regulations directly. That was *intentional* and part of the underlying principle of the formation of the government from its inception. It was intended to preclude exactly this.

    The *only* people fighting this, even with lip service, are what are now considered "right-wing extremists". The lousy ex-hippies are now the inmates running the asylum, and as with any "liberal" philosophy, it *must always descend into totalitarianism*. It cannot exist without totalitarian forces involved, and *will always tend to totalitarianism".     This is just a minor/trivial example of that.  

   I expect this to be challenged legally on the basis that it violates US Code.

     Brett

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2015, 12:23:55 AM »
Thank you Pete, I am sure we will receive specific instructions from AMA as soon as all this is clarified. Unfortunately there are some idiots that
have caused this, I know of several model fields that were lost due to RC planes "buzzing etc real aircraft" I also know of cl fields that are lost because
of people with no common sense. We need to be respectful of people and institutions even the gov. (I worked for 30 years for the US Govt.)
Yes lots of thing are stupid, however we need to be careful and not cause any more commotion as what is have is hard to come by.
By that I mean places to fly etc. By the way I and numerous of my fellow Govt workers did work very hard every day!!! Right up until the day I retired.

Offline Serge_Krauss

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2015, 12:32:25 AM »
"Note also that conservatives are the only people even claiming to fight this sort of facist overreach. Certainly not the Democrats, who *love* endless regulation. FDR more-or-less invented the idea."

As you probably guessed the last time this came up, I don't agree with you on this and would appreciate not having foreign beliefs attributed to me (and many others of like philosophy) and words put in my mouth by others. I am so truly conservative that you might even consider me radically left, but I am not THAT either. All this talk of "isms"  to which we seem to owe our souls and allegiances just pigeonholes people and makes real communication on real issues practically impossible. So I wish you wouldn't do it. I understand that this AMA/FAA topic might reek of politics, but it does not have to be simplistic nor to be insulting to others here on the forum. You can make it objective without accusing others here of doing unrelated things that they have not done. I'm (almost) sure you can.

PS. The only regulations *I* "love" are regulations that keep people from violating Constitutional rights. There has been, unfortunately, a lgreat need for that recently. The "he did it first" of that can be argued far away from a model airplane forum - even when griping about fascist (note the spelling) governments, which we all seem to hate equally.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2015, 04:32:21 AM »
CL is probably exempt. Tethered. Definitely distinguished from RC and free flight. Our home field, for instance, is in a state park where we are permitted to fly CL planes because they fit the definition of tethered models. Folks here got themselves in an amusing snit about drones. A previous call to arms. Putting this thread next to that threat makes for amusing and confusing non logic. We are fully registered by the govt every which way. Private corps can just about trace our every move. Already. If the Repub front runner gets elected internment camps for a religious minority in the US could happen. At least he and the like minded in his party have expressed sympathy for the idea. This would be an internment of American citizens. Freedom to practice ones religion another constitutional right. Why the Pilgrims and many others came here in the first place. A right that underpins our way of life. I guess if it isn't a right to bare mass shoot killing machines so what.


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Offline dave siegler

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2015, 04:54:16 AM »
While not a fan of the government, the AMA OR the FAA. 

The midea and news is really the guilty ones here.

With all the pressure drummed up by non participants, did the FAA have any choice but register? 

Think about it about every third night there is something on TV about it.
Hollywood script writers have embraced drones to be used for bad things over and over.   

Look at the headlines on national news. 

The message that 100000 people fly RC airplanes safely are not news

The message is all are nuts job and fly near airports and/or peaks in windows is titillating and exciting and not factual, therefore popular news.   

Some third rate college without and aviation or engineering school pushed out s study and it gets national news?

NEW YORK — Hundreds of drones fly dangerously close to manned aircraft in U.S. airspace, forcing pilots to take evasive action sometimes, a new study shows.

Experts reviewed 921 cases involving drones and manned aircraft between December 2013 and September this year.

Of those, 327 incidents fall under the definition of close encounters, according to Bard College’s Center for the Study of the Drone.


Dave Siegler
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Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2015, 05:49:39 AM »
Do we have a clear answer from AMA as to whether CL is actually involved or not?  I get the "tethered UAS" mention, but also wonder about Brett's comment early in this thread about the CL model being a system which doesn't actually leave the ground.

I do hope this goes to court, since the language regarding regulation of model aircraft is crystal clear.  I will write my congressman as well, since the language is clear enough that even the lowliest staffer will be able to understand and be able to convey my thoughts to her boss.

It is possible to win-Rocketry defeated the BATF after a long legal fight, over an issue I thought they had no chance of winning even though they were right.  This is MUCH simpler and clear cut.  And, if model aircraft are considered separate from drones at the end of the process, maybe AMA will finally give up on the drones.
Steve

Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2015, 07:27:40 AM »
I've seen golf balls fly as high as our CL planes do.
Shug
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Offline Pat Chewning

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2015, 07:47:42 AM »
Great idea.  And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.  

Terrible idea:  I will raise a stink if the AMA provides the FAA any of my personal information.   I also don't want the NRA giving my info to the FBI, the ATF, etc .....

Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2015, 07:48:32 AM »
Do we have a clear answer from AMA as to whether CL is actually involved or not?  I get the "tethered UAS" mention, but also wonder about Brett's comment early in this thread about the CL model being a system which doesn't actually leave the ground.

I do hope this goes to court, since the language regarding regulation of model aircraft is crystal clear.  I will write my congressman as well, since the language is clear enough that even the lowliest staffer will be able to understand and be able to convey my thoughts to her boss.

It is possible to win-Rocketry defeated the BATF after a long legal fight, over an issue I thought they had no chance of winning even though they were right.  This is MUCH simpler and clear cut.  And, if model aircraft are considered separate from drones at the end of the process, maybe AMA will finally give up on the drones.

Steve, why did the BATF get involved with the model rocket issue?  Was it due to the rocket motors being considered an explosive?

I see no reason for CL aircraft to be included in this registration but remember that we are dealing with bureaucrats.  They are not Vulcans and the word "logic" is not in their vocabulary.  It is so much easier to put everyone in one category.

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2015, 07:53:32 AM »
Quote
The point is,  the government feels that its OK to enact a silly regulation like this..  and YOU are acting as an apologist for it..   Do you REALLY THINK IT'S SANE, NORMAL AND OK to enact rule that allows the government to FINE YOU 25,000.00 for flying your 'unregistered' model airplane on YOUR FARM?  SOME FAA AH shows up and fines you on your property for flying your kids model airplane!!  You are NOT allow to fly the new kit you just built until you register it? Just wait until they classify your new model as terrorist weapon!.. because that's coming next..

I agree with the principle of this argument. Simply put, our run-away government is constantly over-reaching its authority, and the above explanation so very aptly puts it into a language and arena we can all understand. Our government has decided what light bulbs are "okay" for us, what toilets are "okay" for us, what types of refrigerants in our automotive AC systems are "okay" for us, and... need I go on? It is unfathomable how intrusive this government has become. It IS indeed ridiculous. WAY too much governmental interference.

However, unlike the poster of the above quote, I am a conservative.
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Pat Chewning

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2015, 08:03:56 AM »
I fly in the US contests 4 or 5 times a year, both C/L and R/C.
From what I have read it is not possible for me to get a registration number.
So does that mean I can no longer fly in th US, or even if I can will the guy at the border know this and let me cross with my "drones"?

It is going to be interesting to see how this all plays out for you guys,I just hope it doesn't stop me from competing in the US  >:(

Pat MacKenzie

Terrorists and foreigners (both legal and illegal) do not have to register.   

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2015, 08:30:33 AM »
Just curious, but what is the serial number of an Ares or Nobler or Firebaby??? LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~

I am going to enter the serial number of my plane as NCC-1701
Steve

Offline john ohnimus

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2015, 09:00:20 AM »
I really think that this does not apply....it clearly says "such as a transmitter" please read carefully. Definitions define the rule!!
Hard Tellin'....  Not Knowin'

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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Registration Required of CL Included
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2015, 09:04:34 AM »
We have folks on this forum with different political leanings.  Personally, I am just to the right of Attila The Hun, but we ALL better come together in some sort of common goal to fight overreach and ridiculous regulations such as this  if we want to preserve and continue to enjoy flying models regardless if they are tethered or not.  Even if CL is not included we need to partner with the RC guys and fight this because if we don't, eventually they will come for us also.

Mike


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