Registration Required of CL Included

[Dick Pacini]

http://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=19856

[Jason Greer]

And CL too.

[Brett Buck]

And CL too.

  No. We are not users of the national airspace because we never lose contact with the ground. However, I expect almost no one to know this and not draw that distinction. So expect problems.

    Brett

[Bob Reeves]

I don't see how this could possibly be enforceable.

[Brett Buck]

I don't see how this could possibly be enforceable.

   I am sure that it isn't. Most people don't realize this, but from the mid-30's to sometime in the late 70's/early 80's, any gas model was supposed to be registered with the FAA (or CAA). All RC operators on anything other than the "garbage band" were supposed to have a radio operators license. I am sure that we all got right on that yearly fee, right?

    The topper is the actual law (not a regulation) that prevents the FAA from regulating model aircraft. I would *hope*, if not expect, the AMA to challenge the new rule in court, and I cannot see how the FAA has a leg to stand on. In fact, I would hope (but not expect) the AMA to pursue a restraining order ASAP. It appears to be black-letter law.   When someone gets hauled into court over this, I would certainly expect existing law to be the first argument.

    What actually happens will reveal exactly how the AMA views their function.


       Brett

[Jason Greer]

http://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/

According to the Q/A listed here, both tethered and non tethered UAS must be registered.

[Dick Pacini]

  No. We are not users of the national airspace because we never lose contact with the ground. However, I expect almost no one to know this and not draw that distinction. So expect problems.

    Brett

From the Q&A on the website:

Q. What about tethered drones?

A. Both tethered and untethered UAS must be registered.

[Russell Shaffer]

So if we register before the deadline the $5 charge is refunded and it covers our entire fleet.  The number has to be visible on "close inspection" and can be inside a hatch.  For a government agency this appears to be quite user friendly.  I really can't blame people for being concerned what with all the negative publicity about idiots and their drones.  Did anyone else see the utube by the young man who had the 9mm pistol on his drone?  Now he has a flame thrower roasting a turkey. 

[Jason Greer]

Russell, do you think that guy will register his 9 mm non drone? When he does something stupid with it, all of the local registered people will immediately be added to the list of suspects. No thanks!

[Dick Pacini]

Perhaps the AMA could forward a list of AMA members and their respective AMA license numbers to the regulatory agency for assignment of FAA numbers.  Subsequently, any new AMA members would be issued dual registration numbers.

[Jim Roselle]

Russell, do you think that guy will register his 9 mm non drone? When he does something stupid with it, all of the local registered people will immediately be added to the list of suspects. No thanks!

When he does something stupid he can be hit with $27,500-$250,000 in fines and 3 years in jail for not being registered.

[Steve Fitton]

   I am sure that it isn't. Most people don't realize this, but from the mid-30's to sometime in the late 70's/early 80's, any gas model was supposed to be registered with the FAA (or CAA). All RC operators on anything other than the "garbage band" were supposed to have a radio operators license. I am sure that we all got right on that yearly fee, right?

    The topper is the actual law (not a regulation) that prevents the FAA from regulating model aircraft. I would *hope*, if not expect, the AMA to challenge the new rule in court, and I cannot see how the FAA has a leg to stand on. In fact, I would hope (but not expect) the AMA to pursue a restraining order ASAP. It appears to be black-letter law.   When someone gets hauled into court over this, I would certainly expect existing law to be the first argument.

    What actually happens will reveal exactly how the AMA views their function.


       Brett

It only took 12 years for rocketry to defeat the BATF in their lawsuit.  Any takers on how long it would take AMA litigation to win vs the FAA?

[Jim Svitko]

Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.

[Steve Fitton]

Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.

I need to find a job like that! Getting paid with no productivity or accountability sounds appealing.

[Howard Rush]

Perhaps the AMA could forward a list of AMA members and their respective AMA license numbers to the regulatory agency for assignment of FAA numbers.  Subsequently, any new AMA members would be issued dual registration numbers.

Great idea.  And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.  

[BillLee]

Great idea.  And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.  

Howard, you mean like the FAI accepted our existing AMA numbers instead of issuing something totally different?

I've got a secret for you: bureaucracies don 't work that way!

[johnt4051]

I hope someone has actdually passed this suggestion on to the AMA.

Great idea.  And if the FAA accepts our exisiting AMA numbers, it would save bother for all.  

[johnt4051]

I agree that this is unnecessary and ridiculous and all that, but, having looked up the details on this, it appears that it's not a particularly burdensome requirement for us.
  We will have to go to a website, register, pay a $5 fee (refunded if you do it before Jan. 20), and get a number that you put somewhere on your airplanes.
  And then forget about it.
  I don't like it, but I could live with it.
  ... or, like Brett says, you could ignore the whole thing and most likely the issue would never come up.
  I probably will go along with it because I fly on three publicly owned sites, two at airports and one at a county park, and some bureaucrat could find out about the requirement and raise the question.  I can just point at the number and make the problem go away.
  --jt

[Gerald Arana]

Regulations like this reinforce my belief that some people become bureaucrats because they are incapable of being productive in any endeavor outside of government.

Jim,

I was a gubm't employee for 22 years.......... You couldn't have hit the nail more squarely on the head if you had a microscope! (Or some kind of scope)
IMO, (the people that I worked with) they were the lamest bunch of lazy idiots on this planet. Couldn't survive in the real world even if HELL froze over! And YES, I was the outcast trying to buck the system. Didn't get anywhere and I finally went into business for myself. (Land Surveying)

Tight lines, Jerry

PS: I'm NOT saying ALL gubm't employees are lazy, just the ones I worked with/for.

PPS: Seemed like the higher up you went the worse it got. And talking with a friend of mine who was on my survey crew says its 10 times worse now because of all the political CRAP that is in play. I think it is time to kick political correctness in the butt and go back to the way it was.....

[Fredvon4]

Within the like by the OP is a link to the entire FAA rule

http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/20151213_IFR.pdf

I highly recommend several here who are much smarter than I to read all of it as I just did

They think they can withstand a legal argument and so state

And to be clear: as I read it, the $5 registration  (to be renewed every three years) is PER EACH UAS we own and operate in the NAS

OK, say I go on line to register; I need to get one unique registration number to affix to each of my 17 airplanes =$85...or because they do not have any way to know I get one number and place it on my plane before flight....?? hummm


Come on fellows someone else read it and let me know if I missed something


Edited in as I just read the FAQs and they say one time $5 to be put on one or more UAS....but that contradicts what is in their IFR in several places they clearly say:

"48.30 Fees.
(a) The fee for issuing or renewing a Certificate of Aircraft Registration for aircraft
registered in accordance with § 48.100(a) is $5.00 per aircraft.
(b) The fee for issuing or renewing a Certificate of Aircraft Registration for aircraft
registered in accordance with § 48.100(b) is $5.00 per certificate. "

[Bob Reeves]

What's next our guns?

[Brett Buck]

It only took 12 years for rocketry to defeat the BATF in their lawsuit.  Any takers on how long it would take AMA litigation to win vs the FAA?

  A better question is whether they even *want* to oppose it.

    Brett

[John Tomlin]

It appears that AMA has endorsed accepting drones into model aviation even though 90% of the users or better are not interested in joining AMA and following our safety/guidelines.....................

John

[Dick Pacini]

A big question is enforcement.  Will there be FAA agents out looking for model airplanes?  Could a bunch of them descend on the NATS or other major contests to check compliance and to issue violation paperwork?  Will FAA registration be required by AMA to participate in a sanctioned contest?  

[Doug Moon]

All of you guys who are so pissed at the AMA all the time for Drone ads and worthless content in MA should be hoppin' mad over this nonsense! 

I may as well have the one who lobbied for us on this one.  Would have had the same outcome and cost alot less.  Sheesh, just goes to show you who really swings the bat and it isnt the AMA.

[Russell Shaffer]

The $5 per UAV is for commercial users.  Hobbyists get their entire fleet for $5.   I'll sign up and put the number under the wing and forget about it.  The fines may keep some of the crazier idiots in line - after a few huge fines the word should get around. 

[RC Storick]

I like this question that was not answered honestly

Q: Someone intent on harm will not register a drone, so doesn't this requirement just penalize responsible people who are excited about UAS?
A: Although no system or requirement is 100 percent effective against people intent on doing harm, registration heightens public awareness about what safe UAS operations look like. In addition, registration establishes a shared understanding that operating this type of aircraft for business or pleasure comes with certain responsibilities and expectations and that the public will be watching for and reporting bad actors, just as they do today for other safety and security-related concerns. Registration also enables us to educate UAS owners on safe operations.

This is a money grab and will offer no protection.

[Matt Colan]

I'm not paying for anything. I'm an AMA member already and that should be enough. The FAA can bite me for all I care. Operating an aircraft that is tethered to the ground is not an aircraft operating in the NAS.

[Larrys4227]

I'm not paying for anything. I'm an AMA member already and that should be enough. The FAA can bite me for all I care. Operating an aircraft that is tethered to the ground is not an aircraft operating in the NAS.

You might not have a choice Matt .... if contest directors and flying clubs adopt policies to include your FAA registration. This is a very real possibility now ....  we just haven't got that far.

[Dave_Trible]

Guess I'll just go ahead and pony up.  I can work the new number into the new airplane I'm painting now.  I've been known to dabble with my free flight stuff and even a little OTFF R/C assist once in a while.  Doubt I can duck those.  I've put my New Ruler up as a speck over my head a few times then glided down.  I know it shows on the radar at the airport a few miles away.  I can count on a chopper or small plane to come over and check me out when I do.

Dave

[Matt Colan]

You might not have a choice Matt .... if contest directors and flying clubs adopt policies to include your FAA registration. This is a very real possibility now ....  we just haven't got that far.

The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that

[Jim Svitko]

Today in Fort Worth it was about 70 degrees, sunny, and the wind finally calmed down to a light breeze.  I went to the field to get in a few flights this afternoon.  We have a circle at an RC site.  Several of the RC guys were talking about this registration scheme and nobody is happy.

The question most have is:  What is the purpose of this registration?  What is it to accomplish?  Of course, with the government behind this, I do not expect logic to prevail.

[Fred Underwood]

The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that

 One AMA number and "Per airplane??"

[Jim Svitko]

What's next our guns?

They have been trying to do that for quite a while now.  The next step is that we have to tattoo the registration number on our arm.

[Fredvon4]

OK--- I try not to let too many know my IQ is NOT way up there, or my political leanings, or other social views on these forums but---

I was deeply involved with this crap (government rule/law making) as a licensed Amateur radio operator a few years ago when FCC desired to drop some testing requirements.  I learned how to read the proposal, present rational comments, and then read their assessment of the comments followed by their accepting the public comment or rejecting same and why.....Then the convoluted way of making it all conform to Federal and Constitutional law

In this case I don't personally give tinkers damn about non compliant terrorists...no law will stop the non compliant or brain dead scoff laws in our society.  The AMA did not start or promote this government intrusion and cost.... neither did terrorists... me first selfish ass holes did----- such is the cost of bad parenting and too much government intrusion into what used to be functional families----lost during post Viet Nam non –news reporting  and our invasive PC correct culture

I read all of our forum bull about shooting down drones for sport, or some perceived idea that they were spying on our daughters and wives naked in the back yard…. Real bad ideas for obvious reasons.  Then we have the "don't want the police spying on MY CASTLE" and there is some merit to that paranoia.

Fact is selfish citizens with no critical thinking skills have been using the new technology to potentially or actually causing loss of life, property damage, and hindering first responders to do what we pay them to do.  Does not matter if a Channel 9 News crew is trying to get a first on the scene video,  or some you tube wanna be...the fact is,  these brain dead unthinking ass holes have screwed all of us law abiding folk by their actions...NOT THE AMA..... AMA and money chasing are entirely different set of arguments we the Control line community (and other disciplines) have.

Since 1947 with Jim Walker RTF/ARF--- to present, there have always been folks who just want to have fun be it designing and building then flying ---OR,  the 8 year old who's dad bought a Cox PT-19 that lasted one short flight

The argument that DRONES are not areo modeling is BS (IMO)

In front of me right now is a 6" long CH47 (Chinook) micro helicopter that I can charge, take off, hover, and fly around my 16x24 shop without crashing.  This toy cost me $24 and uses micro surface mount Tx/RX, accelerometers, gyro, and RF/IR technology to fly stably for my enjoyment....a lot of this technology is born from the desires of the Remote control of MODELS community we are all part of

Two years ago I bought a $129 Blade MCX2 that used this capability to let me play with a helicopter without the deep expense of learning to fly real model helicopters….

Go ask Tim Westcott if the TUT is not striving to exploit advanced electronic miniaturized components and software capable of using the data…Point is we all have something to gain by a lot of this technology

I personally think the FAA just spent a few hundred million we don’t have for very little real impact on the potential hazard of UAS in the NAS…. Like most laws, they only impact is to those of us who already are good law abiding citizens (basically) and making us even more and more disgusted with our government

[Larrys4227]

The AMA just sent an email saying they're looking into getting your AMA number to count as your FAA number. I guess we will have to see what happens with that

Yup, I just saw that email as well .... one could hope that the AMA and FAA could streamline something for us abiding modelers.

I was also thinking of next month's KOI which I'm sure your attending.. as I am... its on a military installation. I'm sure Gene may have an addendum to his waiver form.

[Tom Niebuhr]

We all know there is no common sense in government. And, the quick bucks being made in the hobby industry and Model Aviation magazine are hurting everyone of us.

Typically the Gov't's answer is another law that does nothing.

Store and hobby shop owners are interested in sales only. Today I was in a hobby shop and a "drone" was being sold. They discussed being able to add a camera to the drone. There was absolutely no mention of getting a license, AMA or other wise.

The question regarding tethered aircraft is associated specifically with drones:

Q. What about tethered drones?

A. Both tethered and untethered UAS must be registered

Hopefully AMA can get approval for using out AMA numbers, but I have doubts that AMA has CL on their priority list.

Next thing the gov't will require is  a tattoo number on our wrists

[Myron Firmin]

If the AMA is trying to get AMA numbers accepted by the feds, will the AMA accept the fed numbers at contests?

I think I all ready know the answer!
 

[Brett Buck]

This is a money grab and will offer no protection.

 At the very best, it will in some way permit them to go after someone who had an innocent accident. But of course not those intent on harm. It's not really even a money grab - it's a "look, we are doing something about drones" (even if it is useless) PR stunt.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

Next issue - when you "register" your airplane, what will you put in the "serial number" slot? The AMA number tells them who, but not which of your half-dozen models you are registering.

   Brett

[Tom Niebuhr]

NOTE I see that while I was typing, Jim Svitko was thinking as I am.

Next question: Will CDs be required to police this under penalty of the law??

There is no way that this will be rescinded before the end of February.

[Jim Kraft]

Any body for tether cars or boats? Don't let'em bounce into the air though.

[Jim Svitko]

Anyone else read how this registration number is to be displayed?  If I read it correctly, if your plane has an inner area accessible thru a hatch that can be removed without tools you can put the number in that compartment.  So, I guess this means that if I have an accessible area under the stab to make elevator clevis adjustments and the hatch can be removed without tools I can put the number on the inside of the fuselage.  Looks like those small magnets will come in handy.

On other planes I suppose I can print the number using a fairly small font and tape it to the bottom of the stab.

If the AMA is unsuccessful in getting rid of this registration scheme, I would expect that any model entered in a sanctioned contest will be required to display the number.

[david beazley]

This is ludicrous, these drone things are being sold literally everywhere.  I have seen them in 7/11's, gas stations, Staples office supply to name a few.  So does this mean that after December 21st someone who purchases one must be registered with the government prior to purchase?  What about one bought as a gift?  Who is supposed to register?  The buyer? The recipient?  The FAA link states the reason for this is that 1.5 million drones are supposed to be sold in 2015, most in the 4th quarter.  Well if 1,500,000 drones are opened on Christmas day, on December 26th 1,499,000 will be in pieces and the new pilots will move on to other interests. This is a money grab and a power grab. Any lawyers in the crowd looking for some pro bono work? 

[Tom Niebuhr]

I just sent this short note to AMA:

The FAA guidelines talk about "Tethered Drones". Are CL models considered "Tethered Drones"?

Will Contest Directors  be required to police FAA registration numbers under  penalty of law? 

Tom Niebuhr

CD 7544

[Randy Cuberly]

I'm with Matt.  I will not comply with this absolutely ridiculous rule.  I currently have 9 airplanes under construction.  Am I supposed to register them one at a time when they are finished or all at once.

Also I read the stupid rule and I could not find any exclusion for CL aircraft.  Further as I read it, it is per aircraft for both types of ownership.

Randy Cuberly!

[Larrys4227]

I'm with Matt.  I will not comply with this absolutely ridiculous rule.  I currently have 9 airplanes under construction.  Am I supposed to register them one at a time when they are finished or all at once.

Also I read the stupid rule and I could not find any exclusion for CL aircraft.  Further as I read it, it is per aircraft for both types of ownership.

Randy Cuberly!

Just register an airplane ..... the FAA number will cover all your planes.

----------------
Q. Do I have to provide any information on my UAS?

A. Individual recreational users do not have to enter the make, model, and serial number. All non-recreational users will be required to provide the make, model, and serial number when the website is available to all other user

----------------

Full FAQ can be found here .....

https://www.faa.gov/uas/registration/faqs/#cov

[Mike Griffin]

Assanine Government overreach trying to control every aspect of your life.  I will not comply either and it will be impossible to enforce.  

Mike

[Jim Dincau]

So if you are a non citizen terrorist you don't have to/can't register your UAV

[BillP]

This makes me sick.  The lawmakers have honorable intentions but the reg is just full of stupid. CL falling into this bracket is ludicrous. I suppose the next reg will be the model air frame and control lines have to be inspected by an official FAA DAR to get the certificate...then we will have to get licenses to fly them.   Better get ready to see model flying at airports and pubic areas outlawed too.  AMA seemed to be very mum on this new law until now...must be some profit in this for them and using the AMA number will keep them in the $$$ loop. They have no power on this one and in my opinion are joining in to support the law and maintain a pc status with the lawmakers. The talk about creating another organization to support the hobby is beginning to make more sense today than it did yesterday.