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Author Topic: News from the AMA  (Read 2157 times)

Offline Tim Wescott

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News from the AMA
« on: July 20, 2016, 03:13:54 PM »
Looks like the FAA has seen the light -- if this was thanks to the AMA, well -- thanks, AMA.

Quote
In this letter, dated July 7, 2016, the FAA states:

"...model aircraft may be flow consistently with Section 336 and agency guidelines at altitudes above 400 feet when following a community-based organization's safety guidelines."

This is good news -- I don't have to curtail my long-line experiments, then.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2016, 03:40:08 PM »
Of course this is good news, but it's not new news...

Lake Washington and Lake Sammamish are open for fishing. Well, they opened it a couple weeks ago, so it's not new news. But today we got out on Lk. Washington for the first time in a long spell, and that was quite good! ;D Same sort of deal, actually...good news, not new news.   VD~ Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2016, 04:00:24 PM »
Of course this is good news, but it's not new news...

Lake Washington and Lake Sammamish are open for fishing. Well, they opened it a couple weeks ago, so it's not new news. But today we got out on Lk. Washington for the first time in a long spell, and that was quite good! ;D Same sort of deal, actually...good news, not new news.   VD~ Steve


while this may be true and valid,
resigning himself to simply reading and not reporting on it would have prevented Tim from using his "long line experiment" comment, and we would have missed out,
so I support his reporting of week old news as new news simply so I could enjoy his Long line comment, because it was funny, especially from Tim,,*

(* because Tim is in fact known for conducting experiments that others of us would simple shrug and walk away from
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2016, 04:12:42 PM »
while this may be true and valid,
resigning himself to simply reading and not reporting on it would have prevented Tim from using his "long line experiment" comment, and we would have missed out,
so I support his reporting of week old news as new news simply so I could enjoy his Long line comment, because it was funny, especially from Tim,,*

(* because Tim is in fact known for conducting experiments that others of us would simple shrug and walk away from

400' lines are about right for a full-scale Citabria, flying at 100 - 120 knots.  One would, of course, need to work on the handle design -- I vote for a gimballed cage in which the pilot sits, with a conventional elevator stick attached to the flight cables, anchored to the ground appropriately.  The complexity of the gimbal would depend on whether one wanted to fly the complete pattern, and whether one wanted to remain upright while the airplane is inverted.  To meet pull-test requirements for Stunt the gimbal would need to be stressed for about 11,000 pounds, and, presumably, anchored to the ground with a foundation that weighs about that much.  Requirements for Scale would, of course, be much less.

Brett Buck's opinions aside, I think a stooge would be safer than a hand launch, in this case.

Mark, you got any spare concrete in your back yard?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2016, 04:19:35 PM »
In fact, there is the floor for my garage which a quick visualization would assume it to be appropriate for the loading described, however there are a few trees in the way, as well as probably 4, maybe 5 residences that fall within the 400 foot radius. However, if you could get it off the ground on the east side its on a hill side and you could get it over the houses, but it would shoot the heck out of your 5foot bottomw because the houses are all like 15 feet tall, and the trees more than that.
Now the Pullman airport is having to relocate their runway to orient it differently, I would guess that once they get the new orientation worked out, there would be a chunck of asphalt at the end fo the runway that would be perfect,,

now in your 11,000 pound pull test, does that accomodate for non limited wind and thermals? because that a whole different kettle of fish,, and a Citabria would not be stressed for the 20 plus G loading in the squares,,and based upon watching you set off for officials without taching, I have some concern as to what would happen should you get a lean run on your Citabria, the handle tension would be a bit stiffer dont you think?
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2016, 08:25:07 PM »
   One of the recent emails from AMA, I think the regular monthly edition, had a spot on KidVenture and it's alleged 20th Anniversary. I think there is some controversy as to whether KidVenture has gone for twenty years. I went 16 years straight beginning in 2000, but won't make it this year, and I thought I had only missed the first two years. There is a group picture of some of us volunteers from 10 years ago or so, so I'm in that photo, and they mention the introduction of the ToughBaby trainer. The article short changed the number some for the middle years when we hit more than 4000 kids for the week, and had 5 circles going at some times. I'll miss going this year due to a job change, but I think it is a good time to take a break from it.
   The other news regarding the FAA and us toy airplane fliers is pretty much what I expected but came sooner than I expected. They are going to focus on the commercial use of drones and UAVs and pretty much leave us alone, which is the way they should have approached it in the first place. These things are and cane be a great tool for a lot of applications, especially fire and rescue and law enforcement, but all the idiots need to be weeded out and the novelty of the toy versions wears off. I think that has started to happen already. There is a local group that flies FPV quad races in a small lot near the C/L circles at Buder Park, and I know several of the guys involved. The Parks Dept has even erected signs bordering the area informing that the FPV crowd has priority use of that area. It will be interesting to see how many are still participating at this time next year. I think they will be like the R/C car crowd, where it will just be a passing fancy for most.
    As far asl the long line experiment, didn't they experiment with ground based tethered observation and training planes during WW-2? And isn't there a theory about tethered satellites? Seems to me I have read a little something about both.
   Type at you later,
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Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2016, 09:04:15 PM »
Looks like the FAA has seen the light -- if this was thanks to the AMA, well -- thanks, AMA.
Quote from: AMA
In this letter, dated July 7, 2016, the FAA states: "...model aircraft may be flow consistently with Section 336 and agency guidelines at altitudes above 400 feet when following a community-based organization's safety guidelines."

I was about to post, but I'm glad you did and not I. Seems to bring out all sorts of accusations of trolling, which I don't appreciate.

On better thoughts, in dealing with bureaucracies, wheels may seem to turn slowly. Allowing organizations like AMA deal with the government will get more accomplished than attempting it alone. I am glad they finally got clarification and relief on this issue. That means working issues through the AMA state reps or through say PAMPA leadership to AMA. I think sometimes people don't see action is because they don't ask, or don't ask respectfully.

Quote from: Tim Wescott
This is good news -- I don't have to curtail my long-line experiments, then.

What size engine and plane should I use with 400' lines and cable size, so they don't go slack?  VD~ D>K

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2016, 09:26:09 PM »
What size engine and plane should I use with 400' lines and cable size, so they don't go slack?  VD~ D>K

Well, I really do think my suggestion of a Citabria would work well.  I'm not sure about cable size -- for some reason the AMA rule book doesn't go to 1100 pounds.

They are going to focus on the commercial use of drones and UAVs and pretty much leave us alone, which is the way they should have approached it in the first place.

I saw that -- hear hear!  Maybe the AMA is effective after all.

Now in your 11,000 pound pull test, does that accomodate for non limited wind and thermals? because that a whole different kettle of fish,, and a Citabria would not be stressed for the 20 plus G loading in the squares,,and based upon watching you set off for officials without taching, I have some concern as to what would happen should you get a lean run on your Citabria, the handle tension would be a bit stiffer dont you think?

I was just going by the rule book here, Mark -- 10g * 1100 pounds = 11,000 pounds.  If the wind speed got too high (what?  100mph?) then I suppose it'd be smart to stop for some hanger flying.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2016, 04:03:34 AM »
(Deleted as irrelevant.)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 09:58:24 PM by George Hostler »

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2016, 12:38:57 PM »
All this "FAA" stuff has all been very confusing to me. Hard for me to know "just the facts, M'am, just the facts".

SO... in recap in simple terms:

DO we control liners have to register our airplanes or not?

Thanks.

Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2016, 01:12:09 PM »
All this "FAA" stuff has all been very confusing to me. Hard for me to know "just the facts, M'am, just the facts".

SO... in recap in simple terms:

DO we control liners have to register our airplanes or not?

Thanks.



    Hi Andre!
    I never did and never will. They have yet to put in in a clear, understandable language yet, but as I understand it, things are pretty much where they are before the whole thing started. No way for the FAA to enforce it. Some one posted a reply somewhere on an incident where a quad landed on some one's property, the local law enforcement was called, the quad had a FAA register number on it, and when contacted the FAA said they had no way to trace it! Where you live out there in the mountains, you ain't worth the gas to come get you!!
     Nice to hear from you!
     Dan McEntee
   
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2016, 01:16:52 PM »
All this "FAA" stuff has all been very confusing to me. Hard for me to know "just the facts, M'am, just the facts".

SO... in recap in simple terms:

DO we control liners have to register our airplanes or not?

Thanks.



Practicality says they have to catch you first.

AFAIK (and this is third-hand, so take it with a grain of salt) if you don't use 2.4GHz throttle control then no, you don't.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2016, 02:17:02 PM »
All this "FAA" stuff has all been very confusing to me. Hard for me to know "just the facts, M'am, just the facts". SO... in recap in simple terms: DO we control liners have to register our airplanes or not? Thanks

Andre, what I found so far:

https://www.faa.gov/uas/faqs/
Quote from: FAA, July 15, 2016
1. What is an unmanned aircraft system (UAS)? The law defines an unmanned aircraft as "an aircraft that is operated without the possibility of direct human intervention from within or on the aircraft" (Public Law 112-95, Section 331(8)) Also called drones, these unmanned aircraft do not have a human pilot onboard. UAS range from radio-controlled, fixed-wing aircraft to helicopters or rotorcraft models sometimes called quadcopters, and can be flown for fun or for work.

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2015/12/17/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-drone-registration-process/
Quote from: AMA, Dec 12, 2015
Q: Is Control Line Exempt? A: Control line models are not controlled by a ground-control station, are not part of an unmanned aircraft system and as such are not required to be registered.
Q: Is Free Flight exempt? A: Similarly, free flight models are not controlled by a ground-control station, are not part of an unmanned aircraft system and as such are not required to be registered.

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2016/01/11/update-uas-registration-frequently-asked-questions/
Quote from: AMA, Jan 16, 2016
Q: Do only drones and multirotor operators need to register? A: No. Everything that uses a ground-control system with a communications link, such as an RC transmitter that is over 0.55 lbs (or 250 grams) and under 55 lbs. is required to register. This includes operators who fly fixed-wing RC aircraft and helicopters, not just multirotors or drones.
Q: I only fly CL or FF, do I need to register? A: No. If you exclusively fly FF or CL and never plan on using a model that involves a transmitter, then you do not need to register.

As Tim alluded to, it appears at this point if you do not use an RC transmitter to control additional functions on a CL aircraft (throttle, carrier hook drop, landing flaps, special features, etc.), that the FAA is not requiring registration. At this point, they are interpreting that a UAS is one that uses radio control. There is some concern that with FAA regulations as written, interpretation could change due to some vagueness in wording.

(Comment: IMO, it makes sense to retain the old Robart 3 line system, or electronics that transmit control signals through the control line wires from handle directly to model without using radio frequencies for control for those who prefer not to register.)

That said, here is another thing to watch for.

http://www.modelaircraft.org/membership/clubs/notams.aspx
Quote from: AMA as of July 23, 2016
Posted 7/19/16: A FAA NOTAM/TFR has been issued for Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and the surrounding area (....) Posted 7/14/16: (...) CLEVELAND, Ohio and the surrounding area (...) Control Line and Free Flight modelers should use discretion when operating within the TFR.
Posted 2/17/09 (Indefinite) A NOTAM has been issued in regards to the Washington DC Special Flight Rules Area (SFRA). (...) The rules and restrictions remain in effect until further notice. Outdoor model aircraft operations are prohibited within the inner portion of the SFRA known as the Washington Metropolitan Flight Restriction Zone (FRZ).

Model aircraft flight ban in Washington DC includes CL aircraft. Anyway, YMMV (your mileage may vary)

Offline Andre Ming

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2016, 02:23:20 PM »
Thanks for the input, fella's.

I think I'll move forward as I have been doing for decades: Fly nostalgic C/L combat planes and not concern myself with this mess.

I don't compete, so facing any arbitrary ordinances along that line won't be an issue, either.

Boy, this run-away/overly intrusive government can sure screw things up for us law-abiding citizens. Sure would be nice if the FRA, FAA, IRS, EPA, et al ad naseum were ACCOUNTABLE and not above the law.
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline GallopingGhostler

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Re: News from the AMA
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2016, 02:47:16 PM »
Boy, this run-away/overly intrusive government can sure screw things up for us law-abiding citizens. Sure would be nice if the FRA, FAA, IRS, EPA, et al ad naseum were ACCOUNTABLE and not above the law.

This is why it is essential that all eligible people vote in the upcoming election. Without changes in leadership in all government levels from top down (federal, state, county, city, district, etc.), the push for accountability will not happen.


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