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Offline Motorman

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« on: March 28, 2017, 02:16:40 PM »
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« Last Edit: March 02, 2022, 09:39:55 PM by Motorman »

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 02:33:06 PM »
How many 2 minute "heat" cycles did you put on this engine before installing it in your plane and flying it?

Jerry

Offline Lyle Spiegel

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2017, 02:52:19 PM »
likely needs more break in time. I use only the  GloDevil  or Thunderbolt idle bar plug. Have to find new source for Thunderbolt since Hobby People is closed down. Have also used the SIG RC plug on rare occasion.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2017, 03:19:51 PM »
My Brodak 40 acted funny for about 20 flights, and that's after I did the 2 minute cycles per the instructions. It would use about 5 ozs of fuel as well. Then I suppose it 'broke in" cuz now it uses 4 ozs and is steady as a rock, easy starts and easy needle. I use thunder bolt RC long, Powermaster 10-22, TT Cyclone 11 x 4.5 prop and launch at 9600-9700 rpm. Nice 4-2. This is in a 46 oz Gieseke Nobler.
It may just not be broken in...it does seem to take take forever.

Offline Lyle Spiegel

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2017, 04:52:09 PM »
Same experience for me. TT 11x4.5 and Powemaster 10-22, needed at least 10-15 flights, now reliable runs. I use the Brodak muffler with extra holes drilled out up front for reduced back pressure. I have mufflers  from Scott Dinger in California, they run sweet without need to drill any holes. If I use chip muffler I also need to drill out holes. Also learned Brodak needs good cooling air flow through the cowl or it can overheat and ruin the run.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2017, 05:38:03 PM »
I kind of agree, it sounds like a break in issue, but verify all of your bench trim is 100%, plane tangetn to lines ( it can cause the surging cut off you describe)
and I am not a fan of the Merlin plugs either, I heard they were the cats pajamas, but never ever got one to perform properly
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
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Offline BillLee

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2017, 05:53:32 PM »
Plane is a profile so it's getting pretty good cooling. I think the engine is broke in enough not to have those new engine problems but I guess I could swap it with my other B40 that I flew a bazillion times last year. I really think it's a tank problem.

MM

Walt, try putting a cuff around a part of the front of the cylinder, then set it like you described above. I'm thinking it's getting too much cooling and going rich, only to get cooler due to excess fuel load, and going richer and .....
Bill Lee
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Offline Al Ferraro

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2017, 06:37:55 PM »
Try reducing the uniflow vent that is in the air stream down to the next smaller size tubing.
Al

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2017, 07:15:03 PM »

I start the engine and lean it down to almost peak rpm. Launch the plane and it coughs from lack of fuel but then picks up and takes off, that's how lean it is. In about 1 lap it goes dead rich, full 4 stroke to the point I can barely do a loop or wing over. When I do a wing over the lines get slack and there is no 4-2-4 break, it's all 4.

Thanks,
MM

Edit: Forgot to add when the tank runs dry it doesn't shut off clean, it quits and surges for a few laps. Engine is well broken in by Brodak instructions.
[/quote]


     Why do you feel you need to lean the needle out to peak RPM for take off? On a profile model that shouldn't be necessary, unless it weighs 60 ounces. Swap engine out and keep everything else the same and see what happens. One change at a time.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2017, 07:36:28 PM »
Open the tank and have a look.  I agree with you that this is most likely a tank problem.  Can I assume you pressure tested the tank under water.  It would act precisely this way if it's a uniflo tank with an air leak.  It goes lean and quits when you launch it most likely because of a lean setting and tank surge.  I suspect a hole somewhere in the tank or a split pickup line inside the tank.  Either of those will cause what you are experiencing.

It's very difficult for me to believe that this is a break-in problem!  If not broken in the engine would tend to overheat and go lean...not rich!

You said 50/50 for oil...How much total oil...Too much oil could also possibly create this problem, although that's the least likely thing possible!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Keith Miller

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2017, 07:54:33 PM »
Maybe a spray bar orientation issue?

So, a couple of weeks ago I started flying an OS FP35 inverted in an Ares. Ran beautifully on the bench and in the plane during break-in. Clean filter, new plug, fresh fuel, all that. Bubble test on tank - it's solid. Fresh gaskets in the engine. I'm good to go.
Out to the flying field...
I start in a 4-stroke cycle, and then 2 laps into the flight it dies immediately; no going lean, no nuthin'. Check the plug, fuel, etc. Try again - same thing.
Then a buddy asks how the spray bar is oriented. I say "hole is down" meaning straight down the venturi throat. He says - nope - it needs to point about 20 degrees forward.
So with that change, it runs perfectly now. It was all about the internal flow pattern through the venturi and how the mixture gets picked up by the crankshaft and pulled into the engine. The in-flight air flow and forces must've hit some weird disturbance at the 2-lap point that was corrected by pointing the hole slightly forward.

So - maybe re-orient the spray bar? Maybe?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2017, 09:43:32 PM »
Dan, I need to lean it out because it runs so darn rich in the air and I was trying to fix that with needle setting. Come to think of it, if I could reach out and adjust the needle just right in flight then it wouldn't even run on the ground.

I think on the ground the vent in the tank is spraying bubbles on the feed line then, in the air, the bubbles go somewhere else and the feed line gets full fuel.

I'll try smaller tubing on the vent and re-positioning the spray bar, those things can't hurt but, I'm going to pop the tank apart and have a look.

   Sagging on release/takeoff and having excess change from ground to air are both classic symptoms of excess venturi diameter/poor fuel suction or too much prop diameter.  It's possible it is a fuel flow restriction in the tank or elsewhere, but I would double-check the venturi diameter (compare to the good engine) and look for issues in the spraybar assembly.

    Brett
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 05:26:24 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Steve Hines

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2017, 10:29:35 PM »
Had same problem, never could get it 100 percent, 4 pitch prop helped, always wanted to try single hole needle valve. Have more than one that does this. If you find out why let me know.

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2017, 10:30:05 PM »
Dan, I need to lean it out because it runs so darn rich in the air and I was trying to fix that with needle setting. Come to think of it, if I could reach out and adjust the needle just right in flight then it wouldn't even run on the ground.

I think on the ground the vent in the tank is spraying bubbles on the feed line then, in the air, the bubbles go somewhere else and the feed line gets full fuel.

I'll try smaller tubing on the vent and re-positioning the spray bar, those things can't hurt but, I'm going to pop the tank apart and have a look.

Thanks for all the help,
Motorman



      The first time you had to do that should have been the last time you tried it. That should have told you volumes about your problem. Especially if you repeatedly use the same tank set up as on other airplanes you have success with, and you experience problems on a new airplane. If you made the tank, and something ain't right, a simple tank change should answer the question. If the problem persists, it's something in the engine or fuel delivery parts between the tank and the engine. Trying to effect a major change in an erratic engine run with just a drastic needle change is a real crap shoot, and it sounds like you are making a lot of assumptions about the condition of the engine that aren't correct. If you have a known, good engine of the same kind that is performing well on another model, bolt that sucker on while keeping everything else the same. If the problem persists, it ain't the engine. If the problem goes away, you need more break in on the engine. Prop pitch and/or diameter may be too high and over loading the engine, especially if it's still a little shy of being fully broken in. Someone mentioned spray bar orientation. Some where here on the forums is the results of some one doing a flow bench test on the best position for the spray bar hole, and the results were pointing slightly back towards the engine. That is the area in a restricted venturi that has the highest vacuum. It's how I always set mine up, because it always works. If I try to do one thing in this hobby, it's strive for consistency. You get consistency by doing the same  things that you know work well every time you build a new airplane, especially while you are starting out in competition and working your way up the ladder. If the engine, plug, tank, prop, fuel line, filter and fuel are the same that you have used in the past, and you have this problem, then isolating it by simple interchanging of parts is easy and can be done right at the circle at one flying session. The last stunt model I built was a profile stunt/scale model of the real Dusty crop duster airplane. The model is basically a Twister with a few dimensional changes and shapes to achieve the look I wanted to fly scale. To fly stunt, I take the carb and electronics off, put on a venturi and needle valve and go fly. I installed everything from the engine back to the tank that I had success with in the past. That is  tank, tank plumbing, tank location, fuel line and filter, prop, plug, and fuel. The model was built and bench trimmed primarily as a stunt model, with controls, settings and alignments that I know worked well for me in the past. The result was I was able to do the pattern with the airplane on the very first flight, including the reverse wing over, with a pretty good degree of confidence.  That is what I try to impress on newcomers that have these kinds of problems. Find something that works and stick with it. It's a whole lot more fun at the flying field flying your airplanes than it is trying to diagnose a problem because you used a Heinz 57 variety of new and different components that you are not sure of.  You also spend a lot less time at the computer asking the internet community to diagnose your problem, and then you have to wade through all the different replies and try to figure out which one is correct! Finding consistency will help you really enjoy the differences between the WORK SHOP and the FLYING FIELD!!!
   Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2017, 10:40:32 PM »
Had same problem, never could get it 100 percent, 4 pitch prop helped, always wanted to try single hole needle valve. Have more than one that does this. If you find out why let me know.

   Steve, measure the venturi ID, and the diameter of the spraybar. I would not be surprised to find they are not all the same.

       Brett

Offline Lyle Spiegel

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2017, 03:05:45 AM »
Regarding venturi size, i forgot to mention that i make up homemade filter on intake, using fabric cut from old pair of pantyhose. small piece folded over into 2 or 3 layers, held in place with simple O ring , can vary the # layers to alter have same result as using smaller venturi diameter.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2017, 11:16:31 AM »
I had B-40 engine running problems with an earlier B-40. I measured the ID of the venturi and found it to have been over .300! I necked it down by using telescoping brass tubes to .273 and it has been running superbly since 2005! Give the ID an eye ball and neck it down pending what you find! Like Bret says!

Phil Spillman
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Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2017, 04:58:31 PM »
Going rich could be the uniflow line in the tank becoming uncovered somehow. Not to be a jackass, but are you sure you have the vent line connected to the uniflow and not the overflow?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2017, 10:24:35 PM »
I checked the spraybar and it's the 2 hole type and was positioned just right. Seems I remember drilling the holes bigger on my other engine. This is one of the new B40's and, you were right Phil the venturi is bigger, mine measured .303". I'll be making a smaller one.

      I would suggest around a .270-275 for a .155 spraybar, or a .255-260 for a .135 spraybar. That will at least get you in the ballpark, I think. I would then adjust around there in .005 steps until you find the right combination of airspeed and "setting" in the maneuvers.

      Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2017, 03:30:43 PM »
Don't use a torch to remove back plates on tanks.    They don't have a wide enough range to heat the tank.. I use the kitchen range which uses natural gas.  Doesn't take much to remove the back.  I use a torch only to remove tubing.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Steve Hines

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Re: New Plane has Problem
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2017, 09:31:29 PM »
Checked and it is 297, the funny thing is the more we use the motor the worse  it got. May have 15 gal thru it now, it goes dead rich inverted.  Sam stopped flying the plane. Thanks for the help, I will set it up like you said and put it back in the air.

Steve


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