New Featherweight High Performance Handles Here

[Stuntflyn]

While flying at the Nats last year, my brother Wayne and I had several friends inquire about purchasing some of the custom hard point carbon handles we were using. The handles utilized a 3/32” quasi-isotropic carbon plate as the base material of the handle. The design is based on the recommendations of Paul Walker & Mike Haverly, who provided much helpful info to us. Michael Cooper provided the drawing expertise for the CNC machining.  It is the typical “Hot Rock” style favored by many. We now have a batch of 50 ready to fly handles for sale. Price is $90.00 plus $10.00 shipping.

Quasi-isotropic carbon sheets utilize balanced and symmetrical lay-up schedules of 90 degree and 45 degree fabric. The quasi-isotropic solid carbon laminates are composed of tough, rigid carbon reinforced epoxy matrix without any core material. Very strong. The prototypes we were flying were cut from a sheet of plate and then ground to shape with a Dremel sanding drum. Very messy. We decided to produce CNC machined Featherweight handles for any who would like to order.

These handles are flight ready, attach lines to plane and handle using adjustable clips. Slip on the included safety thong and you are ready to go. The handles weigh in at just under an ounce. They are CNC machined with custom made balsa grips in two styles.

Some flyers will prefer a “kit version” where we just provide the machined carbon plate with installed eyelets and safety thong. We are all modelers after all. Just make your own custom grips in the material, size or finish you like. Minimum batch is 50, so pre-order a kit version to get on the list.  As soon as we get orders for 25 or so, we will make up a batch of handle kits. The price of the kit will be $45.00 plus $5.00 shipping.

The Featherweight handle inside measurement is 4.5”. A person whose hand measures a maximum of 4.75 inches (across your four knuckles) should find this handle fits nicely. One can grind away up to 1/8” on each end of the inside dimension or wrap extra grip tape or make custom grips to increase or decrease the spacing to get a comfy fit. One size does not fit all, so do measure your hand (or measure the inside distance on a handle you like) before ordering.

To order a handle, pre-order a kit or to just get more information, just send an e-mail to:

stuntflyn@gmail.com







Happy Flying

Jim Smith

[Skip Chernoff]

Looks like a nice product. Forgive my ignorance, but  what is an adjustable line clip?

[EddyR]

Very nice Jim
Ed Ruane

[Gerald Arana]

A $100 bucks!? A $100 bucks!? (90 + 10)

I don't care how "Light" and wonderful they are, that's just too much money for me!

I prefer to make my own for under $10.  

Jerry

PS: I fly advanced and will probably never make expert.....

[peabody]

These handles are works of art....very well thought out and executed!

[Tim Wescott]

Looks like a nice product. Forgive my ignorance, but  what is an adjustable line clip?

A set of line clips of different lengths.  You can either get a Jim Moran (is that right) bender, or you can get "Hello Kitty" clips from Randy Smith (I think).  (Can you tell that I'm terrible with names?).

I don't care how "Light" and wonderful they are, that's just too much money for me!

I prefer to make my own for under $10.

The handles are easy to make, but messy and time consuming.  Rockwest composites sells plain old 90-degree weave plate, you can make seven handles out of a 6x12" plate.  I use a coping saw and hand-cut things -- figure on one blade per two handles and then it's dull.  You'll have black dust all over your shop, it'll take a couple of hours per handle, and unless you're really good at peening the rivets will never look as good as these.

$45 a pop is not a bad deal.

[Chuck_Smith]

What was the test to destruction poundage?


MM

I would like to know as well. Have they been tested?

[Stuntflyn]

These carbon handles have been flight tested with .60 sized electric ships with no issues. Have a few people out there we have given handles to conduct more flight testing and I will report as I hear more. Kind of cold in many areas of the country now, so not expecting many flight reports until the weather turns nicer for flying.

I know the specific question is "What was the test to destruction poundage?".

I have already contacted the manufacturer to order the kit version since we have gotten a great response so far. While I was at it, I asked if they had a data sheet on the material and what was the test to destruction poundage?. Here was their response:

"As for your customers’ requests, we do not have any specifications on this sheet.  Every application is different and when you cut a shape out of carbon, it seriously impacts the specifications as this material isn’t isotropic like a metal is (meaning not the same everywhere).  Unfortunately, they would have to crush the handle themselves to find out!  We don’t have a test facility set aside at our facility."

Apparently cutting carbon plate into a shape impacts the specifications of the plate. We don't plan on going to the expense of conducting independent crush tests as it seems the cost would just become prohibitive. If we have a volunteer out there willing to conduct such a test on this specific shape, we would certainly consider giving them a handle to test crush.

These handles already have hundreds of hours of flight testing on them, we have been using them since last years Nats. They have flown in high winds and been pull tested many times. I have every confidence they are very safe or I would not be using them on my ships. In fact, Mike Haverly has been flying his 1/16" carbon plate handle for years without issue. We went with 3/32" carbon plate for an added measure of safety. Your handle is not your only concern. I watched my nephew Sam trash a brand new Tracer because the electric motor cut off and then cut back on. The net result was the Tracer flying knife edge at a high rate of speed across the semi-circle. When Sam and the plane going in opposite directions finally reached the end of the lines, Sam went down like a pancake and the plane went to pieces impacting the ground. Upon inspection, we did not see the bell crank mount, connectors or handle fail, we saw that the control lines had snapped at both ends on both lines behind the wire wraps at both the handle and aircraft connectors.

Sorry I could not get the exact specification you would like, but sounds like each shape would have to be tested independently. I do appreciate the validity of the question, but it hardly seems worthwhile to get a definitive answer. I don't know what it costs to have a crush test done, but it does't sound inexpensive. Thanks for asking, it would be nice to know the answer

For those interested, you can visit the carbon plate manufacturer at their web site:

https://dragonplate.com

Here are some general product questions about the carbon plate:

Product Questions

Is the material flexible enough to be rolled?
Dragonplate veneer can be rolled into a cylinder 1" in diameter. DragonPlate .025" thick CF Laminate can be rolled into a cylinder 12” in diameter. Most laminate thicknesses larger than this are engineered for stiffness, and do not readily bend.

How is DragonPlate laminate bonded to other surfaces? What preparation is necessary before bonding? And what adhesive do you recommend?
Our textured surface is designed specifically for bonding. Scuffing the surface with sandpaper is still recommended. If you wish to bond to the gloss or matte surface, scuffing with sandpaper is necessary. For bonding, any structural adhesive will work, provided the properties meet your desired specifications. Our recommendation is Scotch-weld 2216 epoxy adhesive.

How strong are DragonPlate carbon fiber laminates?
Carbon fiber is substantially stiffer and stronger than aluminum or steel. Although the stiffness to weight and strength to weight ratios of carbon fiber are high, the true benefit of composites is realized when specialized core materials are placed between layers of carbon fiber. Further discussion on carbon fiber strength is given on the Technical page. An explanation of sandwich structure mechanics is given in the carbon fiber Birch Core summary.

What is the largest size of DragonPlate carbon fiber laminate that I can purchase? Are custom sizes of DragonPlate CF Laminate available?
The largest standard size is 48" x 96" (4’ x 8’) in veneer, .025 laminate and EconomyPlate. Quasi-isotropic carbon sheets, birch plywood core, Balsa core, and foam core are available standard up to (24” x 48). Honeycomb core sheets are available up to 24” x 36”. For many of the flat sheet laminates, larger sizes are available on special order. Angles are available up to 4’, and tubes up to either 4’ or 8’, depending on the geometry.

What does the finish look like?
DragonPlate sheets come in a variety of finishes. See each product for options. We have created a comparison of DragonPlate Finishes that can viewed on the website.

How do you recommend cutting DragonPlate carbon fiber laminates? Is there any safety gear that I should use?
DragonPlate carbon fiber laminates are pre-cut to the specified sizes or slightly oversized. The sheets are easily cut to final shape using a bandsaw, coping saw, drill, or dremel tool. Recommended precautions include wearing safety glasses, a dust respirator, and protective clothing when cutting, sanding or drilling, to limit exposure to the dust, which is an irritant.

Why do you use core materials?
Sandwich core laminates are significantly stiffer than solid sheets of equal weight. Alternatively, one can produce a much lighter part with core materials than if solid carbon fiber materials are used. There are pros and cons to each type of core material, as well as applications which demand the use of solid carbon fiber without the addition of cores. Dragonplate offers each of these options to cover the widest possible range of applications.

Are there temperature limitations for DragonPlate carbon fiber?
Dragonplate is intended as a structural material, and not for high-temperature applications, such as mufflers or engine parts. Carbon fiber itself is highly resistant to heat. A good example is the protective heat shield on the bottom of the U.S. Space Shuttle, which is comprised of specialized carbon tiles. However, the glass-transition temperature of the epoxies used in the manufacture of standard Dragonplate is too low for these applications. The operational temperature for our epoxy is -75 to 140 degrees fahrenheit.

Is DragonPlate UV resistant?
Most of our products are created using UV resistant epoxies. Please contact us about the material you are interested in for more details.

What are the possible uses for DragonPlate carbon fiber materials?
Please see the Applications page for summaries of some recent projects that used Dragonplate carbon fiber. Carbon fiber is an excellent material for applications where high stiffness, high strength, but low weight are critical.

Can I form DragonPlate laminate by heating it, such as done with plexiglass?
No. Epoxy is not a thermo-formable.

What does quasi-isotropic mean?
Quasi-isotropic refers to a layup of individual carbon fiber laminates such that the final composite material has approximately equal stiffness and strength properties in all directions. If only 0 and 90 degree carbon fiber layers are used, the laminate is cheaper to manufacture, but weak along the 45 degree diagonal. Dragonplate utilizes 45-degree diagonal laminate layers to improve quasi-isotropy. For the majority of typical applications, quasi-isotropic carbon fiber has superior performance. For further discussion of this topic, please see the Carbon Fiber Sheets page.

[john e. holliday]

I posted my comments on the other site, Stuka Stunt.  Now I look at that handle and think what would look like after being drug across the tarmac a couple of times.

[Tim Wescott]

I have already contacted the manufacturer to order the kit version since we have gotten a great response so far. While I was at it, I asked if they had a data sheet on the material and what was the test to destruction poundage?. Here was their response:

"As for your customers’ requests, we do not have any specifications on this sheet.  Every application is different and when you cut a shape out of carbon, it seriously impacts the specifications as this material isn’t isotropic like a metal is (meaning not the same everywhere).  Unfortunately, they would have to crush the handle themselves to find out!  We don’t have a test facility set aside at our facility."

Apparently cutting carbon plate into a shape impacts the specifications of the plate. We don't plan on going to the expense of conducting independent crush tests as it seems the cost would just become prohibitive. If we have a volunteer out there willing to conduct such a test on this specific shape, we would certainly consider giving them a handle to test crush.

Cutting the plate into a shape doesn't impact the characteristics of the plate away from the cut area, and no one cares about a crush test.  This is a control line handle.  The question is, what's the maximum that you can pull before it breaks, and that's heavily influenced by the shape that it's cut to.  As a thought experiment, consider what would happen if someone with a Really Big hand cut out the opening until there was only 1/8" left top and bottom -- it'd break.  Without testing the thing you don't really know how hard a pull it can take.

Based on the handles that I build for myself (which is a slightly different design, and certainly different material) I'm guessing that they'll do 80 pounds no problem, and will probably do twice that.  But that's just a guess -- certainty comes from testing.

[Fredvon4]

I tend to think...looking at this handle and comparing it to the very similar version I got from Randy Smith ( a bit cheaper) that I would not be too concerned with destruction tension....But this is only because I ABSOLUTELY TRUST Randy to not offer an inferior product

This product (finished cost a bit high IMO), is 3/32 materiel and Randy's is 5/64s.
This product has 5 spaced holes and Randy's version has 8....
Both appear to have same setback for the connector holes, so, I generally think this product is well enough designed and built --that I personally would not worry about tension tear out

I am at the stage in this hobby to seriously consider One handle and set(s) of lines per airplane ---so COST is a big consideration

That said, I like the design, but Randy's is less expensive overall

OTOH the cost of a set of Hello Kitty clips still causes me a mild coronary....grin

Note to self... clip bender is needed....but dang... I sure do love the ease of Hello Kitty clips....

[Steve Helmick]

Paul, Howard and Mike have been flying this sort of handle construction for some years, and their handles always passed the pull test. I'd bet that Paul and Howard have done the ciphering. Chris, Alan and their friend Ark (Arkady) have been using them (self-produced copies of Paul's handle) the last few years and produce a similar product sold through Randy Smith (AKA Randy Aero), but I don't know what the price is. You're welcome to ask Randy. Ark cuts the CF cores in his machine shop in Richmond, BC. Alan and Chris add the bushings (unflanged brass tubing), a basic balsa grip and apply a coat of clear dope, as I understand it. Custom shaping and "grip tape" is on you. Chris offered me a CF core at an undisclosed price, and I jumped quickly. I've already posted pictures of my version. A little looking will probably turn them up. I'd rather buy the CF core and finish it to suit myself, and I'm not concerned at all about handle strength. If Paul and Howard think it's safe, then it's safe. Mine passes a 45 lb pull test without an issue.    Steve

PS: As far as dragging your handle across the tarmac...don't do that. It's why I take my handle off the lines (clips stay on the handle) and wind my lines toward the plane, and leave one clip on the lines and one clip on the plane. The plane is heavier than the handle and neither  gets dragged unless some twit steps on my lines. After each flight at a contest, I take my handle off and roll my lines up toward the plane. I leave them attached to the plane. Rolling them back out is quick, as is attaching the handle. The rules say they get pull tested before every flight, whether disconnected or not. If somebody tells you otherwise, they are WRONG...don't trust them.   

[Tim Wescott]

Note to self... clip bender is needed....but dang... I sure do love the ease of Hello Kitty clips....

Bending up a set of clips takes little time, and if you muff up on a set of leadouts or lines then with a clip bender it's easy to make unusually long or short clips.  I've got a couple of planes that have a 2" clip to compensate for screwing up the line lengths (with extra-heavy wire) and then a more normal clip on the other line.

You can make the clips out of ordinary music wire.  I know that the trend seems to be stainless wire, but when I started several years ago my business was in a downturn, so I went as cheap as possible, figuring that if I saw any sign of corrosion I'd go to stainless clips.  I'm still waiting.

I put a bar across the front of my handle, for strength, and use 1/16" CF, because with the bar I figure I can get away with it.  The handle in the picture has been pulled to 80 pounds with no sign of distress -- I chickened out because I was worried about pulling my welding bench over onto my feet.  It weighs 16 grams without the wrist strap -- and you can feel the difference in flight.  The overhang is more, though.

[Mark Scarborough]

I know it's probably ok but dang, I wish you would leave a little more meat around those holes and epoxy the eyelets in. Looks like a great handle with a classic shape. If you send me one I'll pull test it and report the results. PM for address.


btw, I made my own clip bender with a large bolt, 3/8 key stock, dowel pins and a drill press. I use music wire for the clips. So easy a modeler could do it.

You only need one handle and one set of lines. You just need to keep the clips with each airplane.


MM

nope, unless every airplane is a ringmaster ,, or the same,, and why would you want to?

It makes so much more sense to have a handle and lines for each airplane, in fact, having two setups, handle and lines, for your prime competition airplane that are both flown and trimmed is not a bad idea incase damage occurs in the pits,, which is always the pits,, 

[tom brightbill]

Mine are copies of Tim's. I don't know if Paul's and Howard's have the connecting portion between the arms or not. I used .062 Dragonplate ( the same brand as Paul had posted about). I pulled .015 x 60' wrapped end lines to just over 70# before I decided that 2x the requirement for the plane the lines and handle were going on would probably do. I also looked for deformation of the plate, even attempting to twist the handle approximately 30 degrees. No visible movement. Be sure that the heavier plate is acceptable, though without the connecting bar someone else will have to test it. At that point I'd also highly recommend .018 wrapped lines.

The sensation when using these handles is like going from old reciprocating ball type steering to modern rack and pinion style (or for Steve Helmick, Steelhead gear to Ultralight trout gear   .

[Joseph Patterson]

         Those are some really nice looking handles Jim!
              Doug

[Tim Wescott]

Mine are copies of Tim's. I don't know if Paul's and Howard's have the connecting portion between the arms or not.

Everyone else uses a "C" shaped handle like the one in the start of this thread.

[Stuntflyn]

Just a few quick thoughts on some of the questions raised here regarding price. The ready to fly handles offer certain features I have not yet seen on other carbon handles. First, they are waterproof. All of the balsa grips are sealed with spar varnish, sanded and then coated with a relatively thick application of z-poxy. While I would never drag my handle across the tarmac, the balsa grips coated in z-poxy do offer much more protection than a coat of clear dope.

One of the issues I had a problem with when trying carbon plate handles the first time was the finish on the rough surface of the carbon material. Perhaps I am more sensitive than the average flyer, but the rough carbon surface particularly irritates my skin if it comes in contact. It's like crawling around in an attic full of the old Owens- Corning Pink Fiberglas insulation. Stuff itches and feels like someone is poking me with little hypodermic needles. Makes me want to take a shower.

One reason we chose DragonPlate material is because one side of the material has a super gloss finish. The other side is the rough carbon. I did not want any rough stuff, so all exposed areas of the rough finish are also coated in Z-Poxy. This includes the cut edges of the carbon material, which were particularly irritating to me. Another benefit of this final Z-Poxy coating is that it is applied after the eyelets are installed. This allows the finishing resin to secure the eyelets in place with epoxy. If you ever have to replace an eyelet, you have to drill it out with an 1/8" bit anyway, so refitting a new eyelet and securing it with a bit a finishing resin is rather straight forward.

I first flew a 28 ounce electric Ringmaster with this carbon plate handle and I just loved the responsiveness. The hard point style with a super light handle was like power steering. It was particularly nice in overhead maneuvers where the light weight really shined.  It was only when I hooked the carbon handle up to my .60 size Tracer and flew it for the first time at the Nats last year did I realize I had another issue with the design. Our prototypes used just a small balsa grip in the center of the handle like others you see. The top, bottom and overhang areas were just the bare carbon plate. I thought the darn thing was going to cut my finger off, even left a red welt on my finger. This could have been somewhat alleviated with lots of bat tape, but I just went to the old time circle where the vendors were, bought some balsa, cut off the rinky dink grips and put on grips which wrapped all the way around the tops and bottoms like you see in the handles now. That fixed the issue and I have been very happy with the handles since.

Our manufactured handles have the grips tacked on one at a time and then the round is routered into the grip using the carbon plate as the guide. That grip is removed, the other tacked on and routered the same way. This insures uniformity of shape in the grips.

I was a bit concerned about the distance the eyelets are from the edge, but soon became confident there would be plenty of material to hold any .60 size ship because we used eyelets instead of brass tubing. The distance to the center of the eyelet holes from the front of the handle was actually slightly larger than with brass tubing, gaining a bit more material and safety. Our first prototypes used the brass tubing. Eyelet placement is critical because if you move them too far back, putting the clips on can become a real pain in the arse.

I am sure most of you can see there is really a large amount of labor dedicated to the ready to fly handles. After all, these are the personal handles we use and we wanted to have the very best handle features we could possibly engineer. I'm not so sure if you purchase a kit and you put a price on your time to finish it as we have, that you will not think $90.00 a bargain. Of course, the kit provides the ultimate in customization. Any thickness of grips, any shape for the interior and any finish you like. Might have to give one to my friend Mark Scarborough just to see what dazzling design and finish he would come up with. Models are a labor of love, what else would cause us to spend hours and hours sanding, finishing and making them the very best we can make them.

We will spend hundreds of dollars on kits, fancy motors, pipes and exotic electric setups, it hardly seems too expensive to spend a little on the part that directly connects us with our wonderful flying stunt ships.

On final comment on safety. Our instructions are very explicit, you are not to remove more than an 1/8" of carbon plate from the inside top or the inside bottom areas of the handle. If you make this area too narrow, you can compromise the safety of the handle. One handle shape cannot fit all sizes, if your hand is too large for this handle, buy a different handle or custom make your own.

The kit versions will be arriving in a week or two. We only ordered 50, some of which are already sold. We do have about 40 ready to fly handles left, so shoot me an email if you would like to try one of these handles. They are the best I have flown with.

Jim Smith

[Mark Scarborough]

Might have to give one to my friend Mark Scarborough just to see what dazzling design and finish he would come up with. Models are a labor of love, what else would cause us to spend hours and hours sanding, finishing and making them the very best we can make them.

Jim Smith

WEll its probably safe for me to handle, it has not velcro or batteries 
Though I will confess my handles are abused,, drug across the ground and everything,,

[Randy Powell]

I like mine.

[Tim Wescott]

I like mine.

I thought you didn't do super-light.

[Mark Scarborough]

I thought you didn't do super-light.

Tim, thats paint related,, so since no paint on the handle, no heavy weight,, Just sayin

[Tim Wescott]

Tim, thats paint related,, so since no paint on the handle, no heavy weight,, Just sayin

A couple of years ago Randy told me he had tried the super-light handles and couldn't feel the difference between them and what he had (which was 80gm or something like that).

[Howard Rush]

Mine are like Jim's, but uglier. They are balsa in the shape of a Hot Rock, although I have 3D-printed some out of ABS, too.  I use homemade carbon plate.  I put patches of carbon on the sides of the handle at the top and bottom so it can be dragged across the ground without abrading the balsa.

[Mark Scarborough]

All those holes, what are they good for after you find the right spacing? I use the same control system in all my serious planes and I've found the handle spacing I like so I just make a handle with that spacing. I started making different handles to find a design I liked, by the time I made 3-4 handles I found the spacing that works. Mine ended up a little smaller than a 4" bellcrank.

MM

Because every airplane requires different spacing. and during the trim process i have adjusted and tweaked the spacing as I adjust other parameters.

[Steve Helmick]

Also need to adjust line spacing when going to fly at different altitudes. Narrower spacing or higher altitude tend to make your "bottoms" lower, and wider spacing and lower altitudes tend to make your "bottoms" higher. Referring to the bottoms of the maneuvers, not your hindquarters. If you always fly at the same altitude, barometric pressure and density altitude, then you probably should not adjust your handle.  Steve

[Larry Renger]

Or, check out my Low Overhang Exponential Hard Point handle.  I have so far sold 25 kits at $20, though the next batch will have to go for at least $25. 

[Paul Walker]

Also need to adjust line spacing when going to fly at different altitudes. Narrower spacing or higher altitude tend to make your "bottoms" lower, and wider spacing and lower altitudes tend to make your "bottoms" higher. Referring to the bottoms of the maneuvers, not your hindquarters. If you always fly at the same altitude, barometric pressure and density altitude, then you probably should not adjust your handle.  Steve

What is this? Based on what data?  Your experience?

That has NOT been my experience.

[Mark Scarborough]

Mine don't.

MM

Perhaps your expectations are different?
I know I have adjusted spacing on every airplane I have, sometimes multiple times as I work towards competative trim ( and I use that term in reference to my level of trim,, not Paul or Bretts, thats my goal,, )

[Tim Wescott]

Mine don't.

Mine do.  Tweaking the elevator bias (via line clips) and the handle spacing is an essential part of getting the plane set up correctly, and it varies from plane to plane.  Even on one plane, if I make a significant change in the CG or the flap:elevator ratio, that will drive a change in the handle spacing to compensate.

The advise came to me early, from one of the top dawgs, that you should have one handle and line set per plane.  Not only can you then trim the line length to match the plane, but you can tweak spacing and bias without worrying about what you're doing to the trim on some other plane.

I might even have two handle and line sets per plane -- except that I don't make a habit of tossing my lines into spinning props, like certain other commentators here do.

[Brett Buck]

What is this? Based on what data?  Your experience?

That has NOT been my experience.

  Me neither, I tweak the spacing slightly from flight to flight sometimes, sometimes in increments around .010. Howard will probably say that I am a Princess, however.

   Brett

[Chris McMillin]

I have a handle and set of lines for each airplane because the line length, overhang and spacing offset is a trim factor.
Chris...

I know it's probably ok but dang, I wish you would leave a little more meat around those holes and epoxy the eyelets in. Looks like a great handle with a classic shape. If you send me one I'll pull test it and report the results. PM for address.


btw, I made my own clip bender with a large bolt, 3/8 key stock, dowel pins and a drill press. I use music wire for the clips. So easy a modeler could do it.

You only need one handle and one set of lines. You just need to keep the clips with each airplane.


MM

[Tim Wescott]

I think I just compensate better.

You can say that when you're routinely scoring over 550 points per flight.  Until then, maybe you're hobbling yourself and you just don't know it.

[Mark Scarborough]

interesting, my reply to the "compensate" comment dissapeared,,

[Dan McEntee]

You guys must be right all day long.

MM

   Maybe they'll believe you after you have your name engraved on the Walker Cup a couple of times.
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Howard Rush]

Howard will probably say that I am a Princess, however.

As in the Princess and the Pea?  Maybe, but that sounds more like something Dan Rutherford would say.

[Mark Scarborough]

I think I just compensate better. I only have 2 competition planes they're both the same, one handle one set of lines I just change one clip and I'm good on the other plane. I'll get around to making more handles and line sets before next season.

MM

copmpensate better, THis comment intrigues me, what are you compensating FOR?
if you are compensating for the airplane, then the airplane is not in trim.
If you are compensating for the handle adjustment neutral or response rate, they you are handicapping your performance . If you are competing, you need every single factor that you can control to be repeatable, and predictable in order to maximize your performance. If you are sport flying, then so be it, do as you wish.
As I am like to do commonly, I always think about people who aspire to improve reading something and taking it the wrong way.
In my opinion, ( and that of several fliers who far surpass my experience and performance) to achive the goal of competing, you must maximize every aspect you can. That means dedicated lines and handler per airplane period. I seriously doubt you will find anyone flying in Expert competativly ( or advance for that matter) that does not do this. It just adds to extreme of a variable to the equation to do it otherwise.
as to your airplanes "being the same", I doubt it, They are made of wood, which by nature is of varied density and flex resistance. THe fitment of parts, the amount of adhesives used, the amount of covering all affect the flex or response of the system that is your airplane and will make each fly different to some degree. If you cannot sense that difference then perhaps its a mute point for you to worry about such things as dedicated handles and lines???
as for me, I will have at least one set of lines and handle combination for each airplane I fly..

[Tim Wescott]

You guys must be right all day long.

Every day.  Seriously, though, as you move up in the ranks you get to feeling nuances of the airplane better, or being able to see them.  Sure, when I was flying Beginner or Intermediate I could have gotten by just fine with one handle and line set, because what I would have lost by it would have been far less than what I lost by having me as a pilot.

If you're really just compensating better than the rest of us, wouldn't it be nice to take those superior piloting abilities and apply them to actually flying better all the time?

[Randy Powell]

Well, I was going to respond, but Mark pretty much said it.

[Eric Viglione]

This may sound bizarre to people who haven't spent a solid week of intense flying in front of coaches and judges, but I will state that from my experience, the more you fly, the MORE sensitive you become to your setup, and the more easily micro-adjustable it needs to be.

Case in point, when I get to go to the Nat's, usually preceded by Stunt Camp and a lot of flying, then spend a solid week of flying one plane, my best plane, and re-trimming it as I go... I find that by the end of the week, I have made the plane more and more sensitive, and am more than willing to sacrifice the training wheels of over-stability, for better performance, because my reflexes have caught up to the planes true potential by the end of the week.

Then, after the Nats, and a long drive home, I don't feel like even looking at a plane for a while, so it gets after run oil and might sit on the shelf a month or so while I catch up at work and pay dearly for the time I was away.

The very first time I pick up the handle and put up a flight on that plane, it is a mind trip, and the plane feels all wrong and twitchy, and I have to choose to either throw it back on the shelf and leave it in "Muncie trim" for next year, and pull my plan B ship off the shelf, or re-trim the Nat's plane again to meet my lackluster off season reflexes. It depends on my mindset at the time. Lately, a very small adjustment in nose weight and a small handle spacing adjustment is enough to get me through the off season.

Costs are relative. I don't want to think about how much the box of carbon props I lug around probably cost... heck, I don't even know myself, because I refuse to do the math (It's called plausible deniability with the wife of the guy who buys my props). It's all in your priorities, and what you are willing to pay for performance.

EricV

[Tim Wescott]

... That means dedicated lines and handler per airplane period. ...

And if you get your flying wire in bulk, and you make your own handles, it's far less expensive than an engine per plane.  If you have more money than time, it's still worth it to pay your $$ and get your performance.  You don't get points for getting the most out of sloppy equipment, you get points for what the airplane actually does out there.  If it's 90% equipment and 10% you, that still reflects well on you because you're responsible for the equipment and the plane.

[Steve Helmick]

Well, I was going to respond, but Mark pretty much said it.

Well, yes, I agree with Randy on this...except for Mark's spelling (or typing) faux pas.

And for Paul. Yes. When I was flying the SV-11/PA .51 (it's still flyable, OBTW), I went from flying here to the last GSSC in Clovis. After the contest, I drove over to Ridgecrest to visit with my brother, and I flew it on "Little Lake", a dry lake up near "Cinder Cone", just off Hwy. 395.
My pullouts (i.e., "bottoms") were pretty spectacular and a bit scary to me, as an Advanced flier. I flew 3 flights and called it.

On the long drive home (across Death Valley and up Hwy. 93 to Jackpot), I recalled Brett writing about his then recent trip to SW Champs in Tucson (or Phoenix?) and he mentioned that he had widened his handle spacing to compensate for the thinner air. I believe he said it was because his bottoms were too low...could be wrong on that. My wife says I always am.

As I drove, I decided to narrow my handle spacing before my first flight after returning to Scobee Field, and I did so. Bottoms were definitely lower. This past summer, I tried narrowing the handle spacing 1/4" on the Eagle, again before the first flight in awhile, and scared the dog severely. I have never tried only moving one clip (.i.e., 1/8") on the TED handle, and am currently wondering if the offset would be noticeable? I suspect I wouldn't be able to notice the resulting 1/16" shift off centerline. Or would I? Would Paul?    

As for Mr. Motorman, if you build two identical models with the same power, prop, weight and same control system, one is still very likely to fly better than the other. Like Mark wrote, you need to keep trimming. It may help, or it may not. One model may remain your favorite. Perhaps the worse of the two could have a defective alignment that could be corrected. We've read multiple posts about guys cutting the stabilizer out and installing a whole new horizontal tail. Maybe your #2 model needs some of that action.   Steve

Edit: Home field of Scobee Field in Auburn, WA, claims to be at 63'. Clovis, near as I can tell, is about 529', based on info from a private airfield a bit NE from the actual city.  Inyokern Muni is 2,457'..."Little Lake" (about 15 miles North) may be a bit higher than that, and Deer Park Muni is 2,210'. I'd wager that Deer Park has higher humidity than the Mojave, if that matters, and I'd guess that it would. 

[Mark Scarborough]

Steve, it ALL matters,, at least to some degree,,,,

but even tiny things cumulativly can become a big thing

[Frank Imbriaco]

Having a dedicated set of lines and handle for each aircraft is sooo nice. A necessary" luxury."
In the 60s when I was a teen ,  had only 3-4  sets of lines in total- they were used for combat, stunt, carrier and balloon burst(Rocketry). (It was a money thing).

What a pain. Grab someone to help you to get an adjustment- often times, it'd be off some or a lot  because they  were young and in a hurry.  Never asked the older guys because they'd whine. Everyone sought to get in  as many flights as possible before dark. Good thing we had a huge number of participants back then.

I recently inspected and held this new featherweight  handle. Very nice product. indeed. Will there be a cable version ?

[Mike Haverly]

I think I just compensate better. I only have 2 competition planes they're both the same, one handle one set of lines I just change one clip and I'm good on the other plane. I'll get around to making more handles and line sets before next season.

MM

"Ignorance is bliss" as they say.  I defer to the statement from Dan concerning the Walker cup, but, if you don't think it makes a difference then, well,.... 

Ted Fancher started selling his "Pro Stunt" handles about 14 years ago on a limited basis.  Carl Shoup took over from there.  The price was $25.00 apiece, I bought two.  At the time I was flying Intermediate and figured it was worth a try.  My old handles got tossed shortly thereafter.  I am the guy the generally doesn't buy something that I can make, so I did.  One handle, one set of lines per airplane.  My scores went up dramatically not entirely due the handles but they were definitely a contributing factor.  Better building and some first class tutoring also helps.  One piece of advice you'll receive around these parts concerns all of the above.

These handles look great, the only input I had was sending Jim the basic outline.  The rest is his and very nicely done.

For what is worth why would you want a cable version?

[Paul Walker]

And for Paul. Yes. When I was flying the SV-11/PA .51 (it's still flyable, OBTW), I went from flying here to the last GSSC in Clovis. After the contest, I drove over to Ridgecrest to visit with my brother, and I flew it on "Little Lake", a dry lake up near "Cinder Cone", just off Hwy. 395.
My pullouts (i.e., "bottoms") were pretty spectacular and a bit scary to me, as an Advanced flier. I flew 3 flights and called it.

On the long drive home (across Death Valley and up Hwy. 93 to Jackpot), I recalled Brett writing about his then recent trip to SW Champs in Tucson (or Phoenix?) and he mentioned that he had widened his handle spacing to compensate for the thinner air. I believe he said it was because his bottoms were too low...could be wrong on that. My wife says I always


My experience is different. In preparing for the Reno Nat's I had built a very light plane. It  was used for 3 days there before switching back to my '83 plane. The  '83 plane had never flown at anything other than sea level. I switched to it at Reno, which is at 5000 feet, and did nothing more than remove tip weight and add nitro. It flew much like sea level, amazingly.

My guess is that you experienced too much tip weight at that somewhat higher altitude. Tip weight needs to change with change in altitude, however many don't do/know that. If you were to rebalance the wing with less tip weight at altitude, it would likely respond the same. It is an airplane issue, not a  handle issue.

[Steve Helmick]

Thank you for the explanation, Paul. When I got home and flew the SV-11 with the 1/4" narrower spacing, my "bottoms" were lower than prior to my trip. Then too, when I narrowed the spacing 1/4" on the Eagle, I scared it pretty badly and returned to where it had been. Maybe I should have flown more flights with it with the narrower spacing. I know I hit the corners too hard for the weight, and that was what I was trying to moderate.

My apologies to Jim Smith for the topic drift.  Steve