News:



  • April 26, 2024, 11:16:10 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017  (Read 10354 times)

Offline Randy Cuberly

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3674
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2017, 09:29:33 PM »
   Bring it down to the Southwest Regionals at the end of the month, Dave and I are going and we would be glad to help!  You'll see if the LE is rounded off enough or not, since its also 2200'.

     Brett

Absolutely....Southwest Regionals, Tucson Arizona, Saturday and Sunday, Jan 28 and 29.  There is a flier available elsewhere on this Forum.

Randy Cuberly






Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2017, 09:35:37 AM »
I'm really enjoying the discussions on the Strega. Thanks to everyone who has joined in. Attached is a pic of my Strega getting the incidences checked. Good thing I did... the stab was off by 2 degrees negative. If my plane doesn't fly as it should it won't be because the alignments are off....LOL.

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2017, 10:15:35 AM »
I really would like to go the SouthWest Regionals later this month.  But unfortunately the finances just will not allow it.  I am familiar with most of the pilots in AZ and I would love to go there sometime.


Charles C.

Offline Shug Emery

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1597
  • Whoooo Buddy))))
    • Sean Emery funny guy juggling and stuff
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2017, 11:59:43 AM »
Charles.....I did make new flaps for my Strega. Same size just a bit thicker.
Shug


From a PM I got....who flys a Strega:
First let me tell you about 2 new tricks that are very very important. The Strega airfoil ain't the best so you need to do 3 things to help the wing do its job:

The 1st one you have already done, rounding the L.E. as much as possible.

The 2nd most important thing is to change the flaps. The flaps that comes with the kit are too thin and weak, twists very easily and that is bad.  So If you want the Strega to fly well, discard these flaps and make new ones in the same size, but make them strong using the thickest sheet of balsa that will fit with the wing. Do not taper the flap and also do not round the T.E. Very very important not to round the Trailing edge, leave it square! The square T.E. has proven to me to work much better, if you want to know why and the Theory behind this I will be glad to explain it to you. Most of the Top Flyers in the World use square T.E. for good reasons.  When I built my Strega I did these things plus I reinforce the flap with fiber glass and epoxy. This is the easiest way to make a strong flap, but not the best. There are better ways to make flaps, like using a torque tube of aluminum or a specialized carbon fiber tube with the fibers rolled at 45o. The important thing is making the flaps very strong so they will not twist easily.



Whoooooo Buddy)))))))

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2017, 02:24:39 PM »
Today I enlarged the fin and rudder (built up,not solid sheet) and added a dorsal fin also built up to rear turtle deck. I also fiberglassed my flaps and will put a couple of coats of resin to stiffen them up. Looks like my Strega is gaining weight and will be beyond the 64 oz I was hoping for....oh well???

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2017, 12:03:18 AM »
Shug,

I like the idea of strengthening the flaps.  I will make some new flaps soon.  Thanks!


Skip,
Keep up the good work.  I especially like the way a dorsal fin looks on the Strega.

Charles C

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2017, 06:50:15 AM »
Surely Elevator ( and Flap ) Aerodynamic Balance ' ears ' would considerably reduce control ' effort Vs Movement !?




Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2017, 10:08:49 AM »
Surely Elevator ( and Flap ) Aerodynamic Balance ' ears ' would considerably reduce control ' effort Vs Movement !?


   Certainly, but you would want to do it to the flaps. The elevator is a minor contributor. . You could use "spades" without too much disruption, but I like Howard's solution better.

   Control loads are a big deal. It's pretty hard to do the tiny precise motion control motions required, while you are also white-knuckling it just to get the controls to move at all and holding against 15 lbs of line tension. That's one reason airplanes are tending to get smaller over time. You made them big because you had to, to control the speed with larger engines. As we got better control over the engines, the airplanes got smaller for a given amount of power.

     Brett

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2017, 02:58:50 PM »
Hi Brett,
Please explain  "spades"?   What is Howard's solution?  ???

Charles C

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1899
  • AMA 32529
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2017, 03:35:58 PM »
I think a Strega that looked like a Mustang would be neat. A fin, rudder and dorsal that is P-51 will be nice.
Chris...

Today I enlarged the fin and rudder (built up,not solid sheet) and added a dorsal fin also built up to rear turtle deck. I also fiberglassed my flaps and will put a couple of coats of resin to stiffen them up. Looks like my Strega is gaining weight and will be beyond the 64 oz I was hoping for....oh well???

Online Brett Buck

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 13741
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2017, 03:49:22 PM »
Hi Brett,
Please explain  "spades"?   What is Howard's solution?  ???

Charles C

   Spades are aerodynamic counterbalances (that look kind of like shovels, which hoity-toity types and Anglophiles call spades). The picture below shows them. They are used on full-scale aeorbatics airplanes ailerons to reduce the control loads. They work exactly like the Hurricane elevator counterbalances in the previous picture. They have to be on a stalk to permit the aileron to move. You could do the same thing on the flaps to reduce the "stability" of the flap, and thus reduce the control loads. Basically they move the CP of the surface closer to the hinge line. It's just like a mass counter-balance, except it is aerodynamic.

    Howard's airplanes have, of late, had a different way of doing the same thing, servo-tabs. I am sure that someone will post a photo soon, but effectively they are small moving trim tabs, connected to the fixed surface in such a way that if you try to move the flap "down", the tab moves "up" and applies a torque that tends to reduce the hinge moment.

   The general topic of reduced control forces is discussed here, and much of it is applicable to our problem:

https://history.nasa.gov/monograph12/ch6.htm

    Brett

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2017, 10:51:10 PM »
  Spades are aerodynamic counterbalances (that look kind of like shovels, which hoity-toity types and Anglophiles call spades). The picture below shows them. They are used on full-scale aeorbatics airplanes ailerons to reduce the control loads. They work exactly like the Hurricane elevator counterbalances in the previous picture. They have to be on a stalk to permit the aileron to move. You could do the same thing on the flaps to reduce the "stability" of the flap, and thus reduce the control loads. Basically they move the CP of the surface closer to the hinge line. It's just like a mass counter-balance, except it is aerodynamic.

    Howard's airplanes have, of late, had a different way of doing the same thing, servo-tabs. I am sure that someone will post a photo soon, but effectively they are small moving trim tabs, connected to the fixed surface in such a way that if you try to move the flap "down", the tab moves "up" and applies a torque that tends to reduce the hinge moment.

   The general topic of reduced control forces is discussed here, and much of it is applicable to our problem:

https://history.nasa.gov/monograph12/ch6.htm

    Brett


Brett,

I found this short video demo of "spades"  Now I understand what you was talking about.   Has "spades" been tried or used on a control line stunt ship?


Charles C


Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4986
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2017, 11:04:43 PM »
Quote
shovels, which hoity-toity types and Anglophiles call spades)

Not So ! .  :o


Shovel.




Spade.

 S?P S?P  VD~



Told this is a ' Tactical Pitchfork ' Used to round up Downed german Airman , in that Battle of Britain . The illumination would be usefull at night . will have to fit it to mine !  ;D Intruders get the point .

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3342
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2017, 12:42:05 AM »

(Clip)

 Here is picture of my Rabe rudder setup.  

(Clip)

Charles Carter

Hi Charles,

I do not think we have met and I am getting in to this discussion a bit late.  I can recommend to pay serious attention to what Brett has to offer.

This about your movable rudder.  If you already have experience with the Rabe Rudder and know how to trim for what you want from your model, then disregard the following.

Now, with regard to the photos you showed of your Rabe Rudder.  It appears that the elevators are at neutral in that photo.  It could be just the camera angle, but the rudder offset with that neutral elevator position appears to be large.  I think for initial trimming, you might want to use no more right rudder offset at neutral elevator than you would use if you had a fixed rudder.  Then, if more right rudder seems to be needed for your outside maneuvers, go for it.  But with a Rabe rudder and when it is properly trimmed, my experience is that for neutral elevator, even less right rudder is needed than if it were fixed, then, you can adjust for the desired line tension in the outside maneuvers, you adjust to have more right rudder with down elevator.  I know Al will recommend to also trim to have more neutral rudder for the inside maneuvers.  That will become a function of how well your model responds to the movable rudder.  My experience as well as some others that have used the movable rudder even trim to use little rudder movement for the inside maneuvers to even giving a bit more right rudder.  Rabe will probably tell you to ignore this.  But, it becomes how the model responds in the maneuvers, particularly in the transition from outside to inside loops.  The problem you might have is that with the position of the horns you have on the elevator/rudder linkage, you are fairly limited in what adjustments you can make to your rudder movement relative to the elevators.  That linkage arrangement works for Al.  I know it has not worked so well for me and some others that have seriously worked with this.  (There are alternatives for that pushrod linkage.)

One of the problems for some who have tried the Rabe rudder is that they use excessive rudder movements from up and down elevator with unsatisfying results.  Then they give up feeling the system is not helping.

Now, I will suggest that what I said may not apply to your model at all.  I have seen Igor Burger use a lot of rudder offset on his electric Max Bee.  But one factor is that his rudder is comparatively small and the rudder area is fairly well centered around the thrust line.

Yes, I have been lectured that many National and International Championships have been won without the use of a movable rudder.  My only response to that is that it works for me and will continue to use it for my Open competition models.

As I suggested at the beginning of this post, if you already have experience with these things, and know what to expect, then disregard all of the above.

Keith

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2017, 07:27:22 AM »
Keith and ALL thanks so much for your thoughts in this thread. As you know from reading this thread I'm presently finishing up an ARC Strega and am learning so much.
I'm very lucky to have some well known "Experts" in our club. Recently I asked Danny Banjock about the rudder on his new Raven and he said he made it "adjustable" for trimming,but not a "wiggly rudder" as Joe Adamusko calls it. Now Joe Adamusko on the other hand who has been guiding me thru this project said "Skip put the Rabe Rudder on there". So I did thinking that if it didn't work out I could always fix it into position per Danny! So I'm hedging my bets here.

I did enlarge the stock rudder and fin as per Windy's tape suggestion. Setting up the rudder with the horns and linkage was no sweat. At full "up" my rudder is centered, at full down the rudder has plenty of deflection to the outside of the circle.....maybe too much. I'm on the outer most hole on my rudder horn. I might have to use a longer horn to restrict movement. I'm very anxious (in a good way) to see how the plane flies with this "wiggly" rudder.

Photos to follow when I get back in the shop tomorrow....PhillySkip




Offline Randy Cuberly

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3674
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #65 on: January 15, 2017, 11:06:07 AM »
A lot of my past stunters and some I'm building now have adjustable rudders.  They nearly always wind up with little or no deflection after trimming.  I have seen Keiths set up for the Rabe rudder linkage and have seen him use it very effectively.  My early attempts with the Rabe rudder were total calamities and all wound up being fixed at neutral!

Yes I know they can work but they also can be a terrible deterrent to proper trimming!

Just my experience and yours may vary!  If I ever decide to try one again it will use Keiths linkage, because it's more controllable and variable in my opinion!

Randy Cuberly!
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3342
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #66 on: January 15, 2017, 05:10:00 PM »

(Clip)

I did enlarge the stock rudder and fin as per Windy's tape suggestion. Setting up the rudder with the horns and linkage was no sweat. At full "up" my rudder is centered, at full down the rudder has plenty of deflection to the outside of the circle.....maybe too much. I'm on the outer most hole on my rudder horn. I might have to use a longer horn to restrict movement. I'm very anxious (in a good way) to see how the plane flies with this "wiggly" rudder.

Photos to follow when I get back in the shop tomorrow....PhillySkip


It sounds like you have not used a "Rabe Rudder" before and you said you increased the size of the rudder on your ship.  My only comment would be that it is easy to use way too much rudder throw.  I think that is the problem that many who have tried it and found they did not like it, discarded the idea and then go on to say it does not work.  On my Rabe Bearcat, my rudder differential was no more than 3/16" difference from full down to full up.  (And full control up and down is probably never applied in the pattern.)  But the Bearcat is sort of a different animal because it has a relatively tall rudder and it all sets above the thrust line.  On my other ships with more "conventional" rudder configurations have used a bit more throw.

Again, I would suggest to use no more or even less offset at neutral elevator for first flights than you would use on a fixed rudder ship.

I can attest that for the stunt ships I have built with the Rabe rudder concept, that once it is properly adjusted, it is assuring to know that there will be adequate line tension in all of the vertical and overhead outside maneuvers.  It sometimes takes a while to find that adjustment/trim, but it is enough for me to never build an Open ship without it.

Keith

Offline Will Davis

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1261
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2017, 05:27:39 PM »



Great memory Skip.  Your are right I am the guy.  This is me flying at 2016 Brodak's with a borrowed TF  Tutor 1.  The first time I flew the plane was in a competition and no practice flight or anything.  After John Wright release the plane It was the first time I didn't know what to expect.  Since then we refer to the plane as "Cold Turkey".  Photo was taken by Will Hubin.

Charles Carter

Right before the " cold turkey " flight , I was making my rounds to check on things at the fly in, I noticed a little problem on the advanced circle, I went to the  center of the circle to  see if could help.

The problem was Charles could not get  he safety thong  on ,  his hand was too big for the lanyard , I asked if it had changed since last flight , she said he had never flown it before ... I had to watch this flight ...  He did a unbelievable job, flew well and got better all thru the Pattern .
Will Davis
"Carolina Gang"

Offline Skip Chernoff

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1445
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2017, 01:28:33 PM »
Keith ,thanks and I promise to keep the movement to a minimum to start!....BTW I'd love to build your FW 190 one day!....PhillySkip

Online Trostle

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3342
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2017, 05:26:01 PM »
Keith ,thanks and I promise to keep the movement to a minimum to start!....BTW I'd love to build your FW 190 one day!....PhillySkip

There are two versions.  The 68 version is the one that won the 70 Nats and is what is in the Eric Rule kit.  There is a 76 version (shows Rabe influence and uses the Rabe rudder concept) that placed at the 76 and 78 Nats.  One of these may be flying at this next VSC.

We will need to talk when you get ready for something like this.  I can send photos if you are interested.

Really, I am trying not to hijack this thread.

Keith

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2017, 11:06:05 PM »
Hi Keith,

We have met a couple times and you have always been a gentleman of the our sport.  One time that comes to mind is the Golden State Stunt Championship 2013  Thank you for your help regarding the Rabe rudder setup on my Strega.  I am still trimming the plane in other areas at the moment.  I have been working on engine runs Also been working on how the Strega turns.  I will sometime turn more attention to the Rabe rudder.

Charles C 

Offline Jared Hays

  • 2020 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 440
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2017, 11:41:35 PM »
I think a Strega that looked like a Mustang would be neat. A fin, rudder and dorsal that is P-51 will be nice.
Chris...


Thats what I kinda tried to do with mine.






Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2017, 11:16:35 AM »
Right before the " cold turkey " flight , I was making my rounds to check on things at the fly in, I noticed a little problem on the advanced circle, I went to the  center of the circle to  see if could help.

The problem was Charles could not get  he safety thong  on ,  his hand was too big for the lanyard , I asked if it had changed since last flight , she said he had never flown it before ... I had to watch this flight ...  He did a unbelievable job, flew well and got better all thru the Pattern .

Will,

Thank you so much for bringing back to remembrance that fact about the safety thong on the first flight!  I had completely forgotten about the safety thong mishap. Talk about adding to my anxiety  I  already had about flying this plane for the first time and on top of that being at my biggest contest.  How do you say EXCITED!

Offline Charles Carter

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 918
  • Flying Control Line Stunt
    • Flying Control Line Stunt
Re: My new Strega ARF to battle with in 2017
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2017, 11:30:52 AM »
Thats what I kinda tried to do with mine.








Jared,

You have a beautiful "Strega". I remember when you first posted pics of it Stunt Hanger I was inspired to do my best effort on my "Strega".  I really like the dorsal fin and belly pan on your "Strega". In addition to being inspired by you to put a dorsal fin and larger rudder on my "Strega"  I would have also put a belly pan on mine if I wasn't in such a hurry to get mine done.  Again thank you for you sending me an image of your rudder and your help and input you gave me on my "Strega"

Charles C


Advertise Here
Tags: Strega 
 


Advertise Here