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Offline Motorman

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« on: April 20, 2017, 11:01:24 AM »
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« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 06:45:10 PM by Motorman »

Online Dan Berry

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2017, 11:17:06 AM »
The outboard wing is high upright and inverted?
Wouldn't that be a tip-weight issue?

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2017, 12:07:50 PM »
I think the wing is high upright and inverted but, for different reasons as stated above.

Have you checked the weight of the inboard wing vs the outboard wing?  I'm inclined to believe that the right amount of tip weight could fix this regardless of the reason.  You said there is no warp but are you really sure.  Also a wimpy flap horn could contribute to this phenomenon.
If it's just a matter of extra lift, the tip weight should correct it!

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2017, 02:55:33 PM »
Really, give it to some one who thinks you are their friend and start over. LL~ LL~
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2017, 09:08:26 PM »
I think the wing is high upright and inverted but, for different reasons as stated above.


      The outboard wing will make more lift than the inboard wing, simply because it is out further in the circle, and flies farther and faster than the inboard wing, thus creating more lift. This is one of the reasons for making wings with a linger inboard wing. Control line stunt 101. Even if you did have a wing with a thicker airfoil on the outboard wing. it might not cause the effect you are describing. A thicker wing will also be more drag. Twisting the wing and tweaking flaps is not the corrective measure for this, tip weight is what is required here. By twisting and tweaking and all the other stuff you have done, you have no idea where you are at now. You obviously didn't know where you were at in the first place! I think you should cut the wing out of the fuselage, flip the wing over, route the lead outs through the other wing, then reinstall in the fuselage, fly the model and report back then.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2017, 09:39:20 PM »
I built a plane before I got a good LE buck and the LE sheeting came out kinda funny. The outboard wing is very high in level flight. There's no wing warp but near as I can tell the outboard wing makes more lift flying upright. I tried twisting the wing and it made it better but the covering is so light it won't hold it for more than a day, it springs back. I believe the problem is the airfoil shape anyway.

So, I tweaked the flaps to get the wing level. Now, when it's inverted, both wings make the same lift and the flaps take over so the outboard wing is very high inverted.

What I did was to tweak the flaps so the outboard wing is up a little both upright and inverted then add a ton of wing tip weight. Now when I do loops I can see the bottom of the wing on insides and the top of the wing on outsides so it's pretty much keeping line tension good.

With the extra drag and weight and how it flops around in manuvers I had to add another 1000 rpm but at least it's not coming in on me anymore.

Anybody see a different way to trim for this besides building a new wing?
  

    So far I am with you, but when you say "flops around in maneuvers", what do you mean, exactly? To first approximation it seems like you started with some warp/asymmetry and way too little tip weight, and tweaked the flaps and added tip weight as any of us would do. Now it is hinging *some* in the maneuvers but I don't know what "flop" means. If that just means it is hinging (rolling away from you on both outside and inside loops), and worse in square corners, then remove tip weight incrementally (say about 1/8 ounce at a time) until it goes through round loops properly with no rolling, then check the square corners. If it still hinges in squares, then you probably also need a tab on the outboard flap or a rudder/leadout adjustment.

    Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 05:59:46 AM »
Contrary to intuition outboard wing often generates less lift than inboard. This due to blanketing effect of fuselage as model is dragged into circular pattern by lines. At least that's the explanation I've heard. An outboard wing tab can rebalance lift outboard to inboard all other stuff in sync. If tip weight is right. If no warps. If and if. One reason you no longer see inboard wings longer than outboard. Many designs now specify slightly wider outboard flaps. This serves same purpose as a tab.


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Online Brett Buck

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2017, 08:21:29 AM »
Contrary to intuition outboard wing often generates less lift than inboard. This due to blanketing effect of fuselage as model is dragged into circular pattern by lines. At least that's the explanation I've heard. An outboard wing tab can rebalance lift outboard to inboard all other stuff in sync. If tip weight is right. If no warps. If and if. One reason you no longer see inboard wings longer than outboard.

     No.

     Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 09:22:15 AM »
Right. Ask Ted. Who recommends outboard flap be wider.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2017, 09:37:53 AM »
Right. Ask Ted. Who recommends outboard flap be wider.


   Ted understands it perfectly well, and you are not going to play gotcha with Ted and I of all people. We have spent and two orders of magnitude more time talking about stunt design and trim than you have with everyone.

      Note that, had you read above, *I* also suggested that he might need a tab on the outboard flap and have recommended such things many times in the past.

    You explanation is mostly nonsense, probably your incorrect interpretation of someone else's correct or at least arguable statements. Flying in a circle drags the airplane sideways and blanks out the wing? OY!

     Brett

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2017, 09:48:35 AM »
Right. Brett. Is there anything you don't know. Fuselage obstructs air to outboard wing. Since airplane is tangent to circle and pulled sideways. My comprehension skills are decent enough. Like I said that's how it was theorized to me. You're an axx Brett. Whatever your IQ is in your mind, you're ability to deal with human beings is low functioning. I know it is forbidden to take an opinion that differs from yours. Unless it's one of Your Chosen. So. So what.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2017, 10:36:35 AM »
Dennis, I'm going to stand up for Brett, Ted, Randy and the others that have been at this a long time.   I new plane taken out for the first time and has not been bench tested first is asking for trouble.   Don't ask me how I know.   I have built from kits and plans because I figure the person who designed them knew more then I did.  Some took several flights to get right and some I was doing a kind of pattern first flight.  But, to make multiple changes at once is not going to solve a problem and in fact may make it worse.   Windy has written about this as well the others.   First flights get engine working right while doing basic stuff like loops and inverted.   In fact I know some guys that said they were still trimming a plane when they started flying their new one. 

If people would go found the flow chart on trimming a plane and use it would solve a lot of grief. VD~
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Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2017, 01:00:00 PM »
Wow, pick a fight, call someone an axx, then say that THEIR ability to deal with humans is low functioning?

Before letting your character show, it would be good to draw a free-body diagram.

After letting it show, it would be good to apologize.

The excellent series of articles by Paul Walker on trimming is available on the Flyinglines website.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2017, 02:07:18 PM »
Yeah. Brett has a history of being snooty with me. I'm referring to that. Snooty is too mild a term. It's personal I guess. Since I can agree with him and it's still an issue. Dan Banjock, as others on this thread, has recommended outboard tabs to assist overcoming certain kinds of hinging and lift imbalance.

The model wants to fly straight. The lines pull the plane in circle. Inboard wing gets cleaner less disruptive air. Outboard gets more turbulence as air goes over and around fues. Effect stronger on flaps because of blanketing. How much effect? Enough so that a tab on the outside flap or a slight increase in width of the outside flap compensates. Dumb explanation in Brett's opinion. Makes sense to me. Made sense to the man telling me.

Disagree if you like. Nicer ways to do it. Choose your mode of discourse. I don't mind going there. I am a Liberal who prefers Buddhist detachment. That's a lie. Usually I am mannerly and kind of mature.






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Offline Bill Morell

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2017, 02:15:13 PM »
Yeah. Brett has a history of being snooty with me. I'm referring to that. Snooty is too mild a term. It's personal I guess. Since I can agree with him and it's still an issue. Dan Banjock has recommended outboard tabs to assist overcoming certain kinds of hinging and lift imbalance. The model wants to fly straight. The lines pull the plane in circle. Inboard wing gets cleaner less disruptive air. Outboard gets more turbulence as air goes over and around fues. Effect stronger on flaps because of blanketing. How much effect? Enough so that a tab on the outside flap or a slight increase in width of the outside flap compensates. Dumb explanation in Brett's opinion. Makes sense to me. Made sense to the man telling me. Disagree if you like. Nicer ways to do it. Dan has directed me to the other drills to reducing hinging.


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Personally I don't think any of this is worth arguing over. Motorman asked for help. Bound to be more than one answer.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:05:21 PM by Bill Morell »
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2017, 02:22:26 PM »
Oh. Arguing now and the isn't so bad. Joking around is better.

These threads are often a leap into the unknown. Twilight Zone.

I apologize to Brett. Take care.



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Offline Target

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2017, 02:49:55 PM »
From my newbie experience, even well trimmed planes fly weird in thermal air, so I try not to be to hasty in making fine changes towards the (fictional?) perfect setting.
This goes for my RC sailplanes as well as my E power and IC powered C/L planes.
They all fly better in "good" conditions, and not as good in poor conditions.
Trick is optimizing the flying qualities in poor conditions, in my opinion.

Glad you got it sorted out, MM, and I would have hit on tip weight and then setting engine offset or lead out positions, after reading from the top down. So since I wasn't far off, that makes me pretty happy.

"Don't make me Axx you again!" LOL

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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2017, 07:05:42 PM »
Contrary to intuition outboard wing often generates less lift than inboard. This due to blanketing effect of fuselage as model is dragged into circular pattern by lines. At least that's the explanation I've heard. An outboard wing tab can rebalance lift outboard to inboard all other stuff in sync. If tip weight is right. If no warps. If and if. One reason you no longer see inboard wings longer than outboard. Many designs now specify slightly wider outboard flaps. This serves same purpose as a tab.


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       A lot of people need to do more reading. A tab or larger flap on the outboard is generally for holding the wing up in a hard corner, if you are on the high side for tip weight. I can't believe that anyone would think that a C/L model fuselage blanks the out board wing of air in flight. A stunt model crabbing that much wouldn't be able to pull a wing over. Search out some of Elwyn Aud's fine photography of models going over the top in a wing over to give you the proper perspective. Heck, BiSlobs do not crab that much. And you do still see some asymmetry in wing designs these days, just not as much, primarily due to the advancements we have in power plants of all types these days. The extra raw power negates the line drag. How many times have you read (if you read all the posts) where a model's performance and line tension was improved by moving lead outs FORWARD and decreasing line rake? A well trimmed stunt model flies pretty straight as a tangent of the circle it is flying in.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2017, 01:00:49 AM »
Right. Brett. Is there anything you don't know. Fuselage obstructs air to outboard wing. Since airplane is tangent to circle and pulled sideways. My comprehension skills are decent enough. Like I said that's how it was theorized to me. You're an axx Brett. Whatever your IQ is in your mind, you're ability to deal with human beings is low functioning. I know it is forbidden to take an opinion that differs from yours. Unless it's one of Your Chosen. So. So what.

Dennis,  You're truly showing your ignorance of aerodynamics and the physics of flight.  If the airplane is truly being drug sidewise  then you need to learn a little about lead out adjustment!  I do believe it is possible for the outboard wing to be partially blanked during down wind aerobatics in very heavy wind but the total effect of that compared to the effect of the extra centrifugal force is negligible.  It is probable that any such effect would simply affect the control surfaces close to the fuselage more than the lifting ability of the wing itself.

The wing that flies faster is going to produce more lift...simple physics!

Also I'm sure Brett knows more about physics and aerodynamics than you know about anything in life.  In fact your ignorance and intolerance shows that it's indeed you that has a problem dealing socially with individuals.

You were right about one thing Brett definitely knows a lot more about what he talks about than you ever will!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2017, 05:08:37 AM »
My esteemed colleagues,

First, let's call for civility here. We all share controline and our numbers are few enough already.

I'd like to think I have have tiny bit of street cred when it comes to aircraft stability and control, and I can assure you that if the wing is above or below the centerline of the fuselage, when an aircraft is in yaw only - as a controline aircraft is - there is indeed a rolling moment on the airframe due to aerodynamic forces.

In layman' terms: If you notice aircraft that need high stability such as large civil and military transports you'll see a trend. Civil A/C have wings on the bottom to facilitate maintenance and fueling. Military have high wings to allow equipment to move around them.

Low wing transports have wings that point up. High wing transports have wings that point down. There's an aerodynamic reason for this.

If desired, we can move this discussion to the engineering board, since dihedral is universally the most misunderstood aspect of aero design (in my humble experience) and many people to this day think a high wing is inherently more stable than a low wing.

Chuck
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 05:43:19 AM by Chuck_Smith »
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2017, 05:38:24 AM »
The model wants to fly straight, tangent to the circle. The flight path of the plane is a continuous turn. The difference in angel between the tangent to the circle and the curve to the left or right is the degree of slip. Fues is oriented 90 degrees to the lines, flight path is a curve to the left or right. Blanketing effect reduces efficiency of outboard wing and, probably, more critically, efficiency of outboard flap. How much is the efficiency reduced? Not much. A small tab or slightly wider outboard flap compensates. Folks here, attempting to contradict this line of reasoning, are repeating the same reasoning I made above. Plane flies at a tangent to the circle. Actual flight path is a curve to left or right. Model is making a slip turn. Model is in a continuous crabbed orientation to flight path.

Is this dumb reasoning? What? It makes sense to me. The question is how much effect. Am I misunderstanding what my more accomplished friends have said to me? Like I said. My comprehension skills are pretty good. Could this explanation be dead wrong according to the aerodynamics of a stunt war wagon.  Well yeah. Hell yes. Like many other theories and explanations that are thought true. Until. For instance. Fill in the blank.

Orthodoxy and dogma. That heading. Here's an example. How about the need for inboard wing to be longer than the outboard wing. The reasoning. Inboard wing flies at slower speed than the outboard wing, outboard wing flying at a higher speed generates more lift. Longer inboard wing compensates for speed differential. So. These days. Stunt war wagons have equal length wings. The speed differential, outboard to inboard, no longer considered a factor in the practical aerodynamics of U control stunt. Reading back over this thread. Some here think otherwise.

Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 06:02:12 AM »
Dennis,

It's not dumb reasoning and it shows some good thought, but it's an incomplete picture. One of the first concepts you need to let go of when you enter the world of three-dimensional aerodynamics and not the 2D "perfect" world is that (subsonic) aircraft operate in a flow field, not in a wind tunnel. In fact, the airplane actually affects the air in front of and around it so the concept of streamlines parallel to the direction of flight isn't correct.

If the airframe is in a sideslip, the flow field has a cross-fuselage component. If the aircraft is symmetrical about it's vertical cross-section this might not have an effect, but any asymmetry such as the wing being above or below the fuselage centerline or the bottom of the fuselage being square as opposed to the top being round, etc., will manifest itself in a rolling moment. You have to visualize the cross-fuselage flow. The airflow splits and goes both over and under the fuselage. This is where the roll comes from.

Let's say we have a round fuselage and a low wing: In this case when the air splits over the fuselage the upwind wing angle of attack is lowered as the air "dives under" the fuselage, and then on the other side the air comes back up. This lowers the angle of attack on the upwind wing and increases it on the downwind wing. So think about it. If the plane yaws right it wants to roll left, and vise versa. Most controline planes are always yawing to their left.

Of course, all of this is happening in an invisible vector flow field and unless you really like mathematics, you'll have to take my word for it.  H^^
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2017, 06:15:42 AM »
Wow. Thanks Chuck. Yeah. I think the actual aerodynamics of ukie stunt is way more complicated than our opinions about what we think is going on.


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Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2017, 06:20:00 AM »
I'll add this too: Either Al Rabe was incredibly lucky or he knows a lot more about aerodynamics than he lets on, because it appears that he had all this figured out by the early 70's. From a pure aerodynamic standpoint the Sea Fury looks almost perfect for the CLPA mission it was designed for.

Chuck
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2017, 09:36:02 AM »
Dennis,

It's not dumb reasoning and it shows some good thought, but it's an incomplete picture. One of the first concepts you need to let go of when you enter the world of three-dimensional aerodynamics and not the 2D "perfect" world is that (subsonic) aircraft operate in a flow field, not in a wind tunnel. In fact, the airplane actually affects the air in front of and around it so the concept of streamlines parallel to the direction of flight isn't correct.

If the airframe is in a sideslip, the flow field has a cross-fuselage component. If the aircraft is symmetrical about it's vertical cross-section this might not have an effect, but any asymmetry such as the wing being above or below the fuselage centerline or the bottom of the fuselage being square as opposed to the top being round, etc., will manifest itself in a rolling moment. You have to visualize the cross-fuselage flow. The airflow splits and goes both over and under the fuselage. This is where the roll comes from.

Let's say we have a round fuselage and a low wing: In this case when the air splits over the fuselage the upwind wing angle of attack is lowered as the air "dives under" the fuselage, and then on the other side the air comes back up. This lowers the angle of attack on the upwind wing and increases it on the downwind wing. So think about it. If the plane yaws right it wants to roll left, and vise versa. Most controline planes are always yawing to their left.

Of course, all of this is happening in an invisible vector flow field and unless you really like mathematics, you'll have to take my word for it.  H^^

Chuck,
Certainly your assumptions are correct.  However I believe most of those situations to be relatively small in comparison to the lift factors involved in speed differential between the two sections of the wing, which is what started this conversation.  They also seem to perhaps ignore the tether effect and changing drag of the lines as speed is altered during aerobatic maneuvers.  It seems to me that your explanations apply more to a free body (certainly not completely) than to a tethered aircraft.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Chuck_Smith

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2017, 09:56:00 AM »
Chuck,
Certainly your assumptions are correct.  However I believe most of those situations to be relatively small in comparison to the lift factors involved in speed differential between the two sections of the wing, which is what started this conversation.  They also seem to perhaps ignore the tether effect and changing drag of the lines as speed is altered during aerobatic maneuvers.  It seems to me that your explanations apply more to a free body (certainly not completely) than to a tethered aircraft.

Randy Cuberly

Randy, I tend to disagree. The aero forces are the same tethered or not. The drag of the lines is no different than say, an engine out on a non-tethered Airbus A380. A CLPA aircraft is a free body with a force applied by the lines. You can certainly go back to day one of Physics 101 and draw a Free Body Diagram and prove it. The plane will be acted upon by all of the forces.

Since it's a three dimensional object the net flow field will be the superposition of all the individual flow effects. BTW, in the world of aircraft, a yaw rate of 360 degrees per 5 seconds is off the charts!!! When we evaluate the Dutch Roll stability of an aircraft we are generally dealing with lower sideslip angles, and the cross-flow effects are real and measurable in flight testing.

The way the plane responds will be result of ALL the forces applied to it, it's mass, and it's inertia tensor.

The only thing different about a how we evaluate how a CLPA aircraft responds to stability and control inputs is that we reference its position vector from the center of the circle. That's merely a mathematical translation and doesn't change the physics involved.

Make sense?

Anyhow, I really think we should continue this in the Engineering section, as we're about to dive into the pool of triple-subscripted stability derivatives, long vs short period phugiods, damping and all that fascinating stuff.

We'll bore people to tears.

Truth is, if it looks like it will fly good, it usually will.

Chuck



« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 12:15:29 PM by Chuck_Smith »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2017, 01:53:46 PM »
Well I took out 1/4 ounce of tip weight leaving 3/4 ounce and I can't believe how good this thing is flying right now. This has been the plane I put the most effort into and was the most disappointed with coming off the bench. I never thought it would amount to anything but a learning experience. Now it's my best plane. To all you guys having trouble trimming a plane, just keep pecking at it.

Happy Camper,
MM

Better like "all better but for tweaking", or better like "way better but still needs work?"

Will it stay straight out on the lines in both level flight and in maneuvers?  If not you may still have a flap area issue.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2017, 03:28:34 PM »
If the airframe is in a sideslip, the flow field has a cross-fuselage component. If the aircraft is symmetrical about it's vertical cross-section this might not have an effect, but any asymmetry such as the wing being above or below the fuselage centerline or the bottom of the fuselage being square as opposed to the top being round, etc., will manifest itself in a rolling moment. You have to visualize the cross-fuselage flow. The airflow splits and goes both over and under the fuselage. This is where the roll comes from.


     If it's actually slide-slipping, the effect is at the tips, not the fuselage, and not from interference from the fuselage to any great degree. In general, however, flying in a circle doesn't cause a side-slip, in fact, absent intentional yaw, the fuselage is tangent to the circle, which negates either of these effects. You aren't "dragging the model sideways" relative to the air, which is why Dennis' statement it wrong.

    Yaw (with respect to the air) certainly does change the lift and cause roll motion, in fact it is critical to trimming (and also alluded to in my suggestions, although not explicitly).  There is substantial dihedral effect from a variety of sources, although I think the "blanking" effect is negligible. Flow across the tips is also altered, and that has a huge effect, both from changing the lift distribution differently inboard and outboard, and by virtue of having a large arm over which to work. That's what can roll the airplane 20 degrees and back again in the space of 1/4 second in a corner, for instance. Estimate what sort of torque it takes to roll the airplane, say, 20 degrees in 1/4 second. Then see how much force has to be applied at a point, being optimistic, 3" from the CG. I think you will find it takes far more lift/force than you use to do the entire corner. Then, do the same thing applying the torque to the tips at maybe 28" from the CG.  The effect of turbulence coming off the fuselage (which is what really happens - not "blanking") is like putting a tiny tab at the root of the flap.

    It is quite critical to control the yaw angle, either passively (like having 3 billboards in formation) or actively (Rabe rudder) to remove this effect. Yawing itself, if you ignored the roll effects, probably doesn't matter that much, but it sure does matter when you consider the coupling in to roll. Igor Burger, among other notables, trims to fly with substantial intentional yaw, and all these effect have to be considered. In fact, in the case of substantial static yaw angle, you also have to consider dynamic and kinematic effects associated with the inertia tensor. I have seen absolutely no one successfully deal with this consistently, although I have seen various people try it and get good results for specific conditions. When the conditions change, they usually start over or have massive problems.

   While we are at it, the other assertions from Dennis' troll/cyberstalker post- Almost all competitive airplanes from the last 30 years have unequal span wings with longer inboard panels.  Not the excessive asymmetry of something like an All-American, but still anywhere from 1/2 to 1" or so is almost ubiquitous. The reason is obvious, if you don't that, you end up with massive amounts of tip weight to correct for, dare I say it, the extra lift on the outboard wing. A typical equal-span wing airplane will take around 2.5 - 3 ounces of tip weight, and adding 3/4" of asymmetry will change that to something around 3/4 ounce. 3/4" is about what is required to balance the lift from side to side (i.e. put the lateral CP in the center) and 3/4 ounce is about the contribution of the lines to the lateral CG, with some assumptions.

    Many times these designs also include wider flaps, which are there to balance the lift- at varying load factors, not due to speed differential, etc. If Motorman's airplane flies level at 1 g (level flight), rolls out slightly at 3 gs (round loops) and even more at 15 gs (corner), it probably does need more lift on the outboard- but only at higher load factors. That's almost certainly because we are adding asymmetry to the wing to compensate for the speed differential, but not the tail. Look at which way the tail lift rolls the airplane if the CP is outboard of the CG - exactly the same direction as would be compensated for by the tab. The tab does almost nothing level flight, not too much in round loops, but a lot in the corners.

   Note that this is NOT true with equal-span wings in most cases. The one thing they have going for them is that they do not compound the tail CP issue. And they are far less prone to requiring lots of outboard flap tab - in fact, a very experienced modeler recently required a tab on the INBOARD flap because he built in too much outboard flap differential with his equal-span wing. Of course, this is like shifting the tail too far, since the lateral CG ends up in the right place WRT the wing but INBOARD of the CP of the tail, which is like there is a reverse speed gradient. The tail should have about 1/4-3/8" of differential, and what is actually happening for equal-span wings is that the tail is being shifted too far instead of not enough.

     Of course, experience has shown that you can trim either equal-span or asymmetrical/correctly designed airplanes about as well. But to do it, you have to know why it is doing what it is doing, and not some strange "stunt lore" about it. I know people love their lore, sometimes over clearly documented facts, and Dennis has taken it upon himself to interrupt or derail many successful threads (note that Motorman's plane is flying well now - which was the original topic..) to try to troll me and play his games, but it really does matter what is happening, and people will never actually understand trimming unless they have a good understanding of that is really going on.

    Brett
 
   
   

   

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2017, 10:09:12 PM »
Look. It's fine to demonstrate better knowledge than me. I just don't like being dismissed when I'm giving an honest opinion far as I know. Neat explanation Brett. Doubt I understand half of it.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #29 on: April 22, 2017, 10:29:28 PM »
Wow. Brett. A detailed, technical explanation. Many factors considered. Fascinating. I'm not being ironic.

Still. When the plane is flying tangent to the circle the thrust, orientation of flight is straight ahead at each instant. The airplane wants to go straight. Breaking from the circle.

Otherwise, I imagine, there would be no pull on the lines. No line tension. The plane would be flying the circumference of the circle exactly. Flight forces in balance. No reason for line tension. But of course there is line tension. We must have some. Centrifugal force would be neutral at the handle if the plane turned itself. This is what I meant by saying we drag the plane into a circular path.

Also. Seems to me. Given the flight path of the airplane is circular and the orientation of the plane is tangent to the circle, ukie models must fly a bit yawed out. Side slip.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2017, 10:40:21 PM »
Perhaps I am wrong in this. But it seems to me tethered flight is inherently in a state of imbalance in a way that differs from untethered flight. In addition to the forces affecting free flying planes ukies add the tethering force which varies throughout the flight. We also do not have the ability to adjust for these force changes in a moment by moment way. All adjustments need to be predicted and trimmed in. Inherently a compromise. Even when using something like a Rabe rudder. The throw and orientation of the Rabe rudder is set before flight. Unlike RC or piloted planes. Pilot adjustments for those planes are made in all orientations as the plane flies.



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Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2017, 11:15:24 PM »
I did check a few planes for unequal length wing panels. Yes. Vector plans specify a 1/2 inch longer inboard panel. The Oriental plans I looked at did not. I measured two Arf Vector wings. They appeared to be equal length. I'm not aware of Arf Vectors requiring more than usual tip weight.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2017, 11:37:41 PM »
These forums are not restricted to input from aeronautical engineers or Expert pilots for that matter. They would be of little use, if they were. I don't troll. I don't make up issues to cause annoyance. As far as I can remember I make statements that are accurate to my experiences as a flyer and accurate to what I see friends accomplish. A number of those friends fly and build quite well.


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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More Lift on Right
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2017, 12:00:41 AM »
Brett and I have been at this before. I don't  like being accused of trolling or cyber games when as I said above I'm being honest to my experience and accurate to describing what I see accomplished fliers do. In the past I have had on line discussions with Brett in which I've illustrated points in many ways. Often showing how winning flyers I know have done things differently than he proposed. Well. Didn't always go well. (Emoticon)

I apologized to Brett for a specific reason. I thought I went too far was too personal.




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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2017, 02:50:06 AM »
Ahh, they're asleep at last!
Interesting topic, but whatever the reason, getting a clpa plane to fly good is a great thing, regardless if you completely understand why.
I think we can agree on that.
Not all of us understand aero design as much of others, but that doesn't matter. What matters is getting proper info to get it tuned up right. That's where people helping people comes into play, frustrating as it may be sometimes....
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 12:53:53 PM by Chris Behm »
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2017, 03:27:33 AM »
Um, not that I am an expert or anything remotely approaching it but ........ I would consider a counter clockwise rotating prop in steady state (which should be considered the norm) to lift the inboard wing and sink the outboard due to the spiral slipstream.

Would this exacerbate the problem described in the original post? (As in if its an electric engine which way does it rotate?)

To be honest it was always a tip weight problem disguised as an argument.
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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2017, 06:07:35 AM »
Brett,

I avoided the tethering to get the aero-basics down to hopefully a layman's level.

Now, since everyone seems to be on the same page I will address the tethering:

As stated earlier, the fact that the airframe is tethered has no effect on the principles of aerodynamics or laws of motion - but there is a very real effect because of the tethering: since the frame of reference isn't the air but becomes the ground - any movement of the airmass gets superimposed on the flow field surrounding the aircraft.

For some of you left-coast dudes this isn't a big deal. You wake up at 10AM, go grab a papaya latte at Starbucks, saunter on down to the field with the top down, waving at the pretty girls along the way and fly.  For us hardy northeastern types, we wake up, check the weather and see how windy it is today. Put on our parkas and hats, grab a Dunkin' Donuts while dodging deer on the way to the field and hope it's dry enough to fly. Rochester is the kind of place where you sometimes need to knock the mud out of your wheel pants...even when you fly over pavement.

All but two of the maneuvers (excluding overheads which don't count because no judge can really see them  S?P)  are done  entirely on the downwind side of the circle.  That means for us damn yankees, on any given day, we have a 5-15 mph direct crosswind during our maneuvers. Slip/Roll coupling becomes "not negligible". If you know what you're looking for and watch, you can see it.

Chuck


« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 08:11:04 AM by Chuck_Smith »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2017, 12:38:46 PM »
...any movement of the airmass gets superimposed on the flow field surrounding the aircraft.

For some of you left-coast dudes this isn't a big deal. You wake up at 10AM, go grab a papaya latte at Starbucks, saunter on down to the field with the top down, waving at the pretty girls along the way and fly.  For us hardy northeastern types, we wake up, check the weather and see how windy it is today. Put on our parkas and hats, grab a Dunkin' Donuts while dodging deer on the way to the field and hope it's dry enough to fly. Rochester is the kind of place where you sometimes need to knock the mud out of your wheel pants...even when you fly over pavement.

All but two of the maneuvers (excluding overheads which don't count because no judge can really see them  S?P)  are done  entirely on the downwind side of the circle.  That means for us damn yankees, on any given day, we have a 5-15 mph direct crosswind during our maneuvers. Slip/Roll coupling becomes "not negligible". If you know what you're looking for and watch, you can see it.

This is the main issue.  1) There is a heap of sideslip from wind (15 degrees from tangent to the circle at the last contest Brett and I flew), and 2) rolling moment due to sideslip is significant.  The discussion until this last piece of Chuck's hasn't emphasized number 1, and discussion of number 2 so far has been an argument over what causes it, then long discussions of details like wing placement on the fuselage.  Once again, I refer you to NACA Report 1098.  Chuck may know of refinements to this (how does one get at the Datcom on line?).  I just assume a wing with no dihedral located halfway up the body.  I've written explanations here that nobody ever looked at, so I'm not going to repeat them now: my wife is after me to pack up my balsa to move to the new place.     


If you know what you're looking for and watch, you can see it.

For example, if you do some eights upwind in a stiff breeze with your Nobler copy, what to look for is your airplane hitting you in the nuts.  It's not a subtle effect. 
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2017, 12:52:59 PM »
... I would consider a counter clockwise rotating prop in steady state (which should be considered the norm) to lift the inboard wing and sink the outboard due to the spiral slipstream.

Would this exacerbate the problem described in the original post? (As in if its an electric engine which way does it rotate?)

I recently found this out by switching prop direction on my electric airplane.  Yes, it does cause a rolling moment in the same direction that the prop is turning.  The moment is greater than and in the opposite direction of engine torque on the airframe in steady-state (level is where I noticed it) flight.  You trim it out by twisting the wing or tweaking a flap.  At takeoff, though, engine torque is way more.  As for exacerbating a roll problem, there is a small change of rolling moment with speed in maneuvers.  I'm probably not sensitive enough to detect it, but supertrimmers like Brett and PW might.   
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Online Gerald Arana

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #39 on: April 23, 2017, 01:54:52 PM »
Randy, I tend to disagree. The aero forces are the same tethered or not. The drag of the lines is no different than say, an engine out on a non-tethered Airbus A380. A CLPA aircraft is a free body with a force applied by the lines. You can certainly go back to day one of Physics 101 and draw a Free Body Diagram and prove it. The plane will be acted upon by all of the forces.

Since it's a three dimensional object the net flow field will be the superposition of all the individual flow effects. BTW, in the world of aircraft, a yaw rate of 360 degrees per 5 seconds is off the charts!!! When we evaluate the Dutch Roll stability of an aircraft we are generally dealing with lower sideslip angles, and the cross-flow effects are real and measurable in flight testing.

The way the plane responds will be result of ALL the forces applied to it, it's mass, and it's inertia tensor.

The only thing different about a how we evaluate how a CLPA aircraft responds to stability and control inputs is that we reference its position vector from the center of the circle. That's merely a mathematical translation and doesn't change the physics involved.

Make sense?

Anyhow, I really think we should continue this in the Engineering section, as we're about to dive into the pool of triple-subscripted stability derivatives, long vs short period phugiods, damping and all that fascinating stuff.

We'll bore people to tears.

Truth is, if it looks like it will fly good, it usually will.

Chuck






I'm already BORED to tears (almost) Chuck. I suppose you are going to throw renolds numbers in there next........ Z@@ZZZ

Jerry

PS: Just do as Brett says and get over it! Or go win the Nats.......

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2017, 03:39:56 PM »
I recently found this out by switching prop direction on my electric airplane.  Yes, it does cause a rolling moment in the same direction that the prop is turning.  The moment is greater than and in the opposite direction of engine torque on the airframe in steady-state (level is where I noticed it) flight.  You trim it out by twisting the wing or tweaking a flap.  At takeoff, though, engine torque is way more.  As for exacerbating a roll problem, there is a small change of rolling moment with speed in maneuvers.  I'm probably not sensitive enough to detect it, but supertrimmers like Brett and PW might.   

Thanks for the answer Howard, I appreciate it.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2017, 04:05:59 PM »
Actually, since the aim with control line is have 'control' and the angular position of choice is down wind, how doesn't the fuselage blanket the out board wing?

That and any down  wind flying, especially  at low speeds in landing would tend to decrease spanwise flow on the inboard and increase it on the outboard.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2017, 07:56:27 PM »
Papaya Latte. Papaya Latte. Papaya... is there no Justice in the world?


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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2017, 07:59:16 PM »
Straight air at the Nats same as the left coast. I knew the fix was in.


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Online frank williams

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2017, 08:26:14 PM »
I may have missed it, but why haven’t we talked about the vertical stabilizer / rudder as the source of roll perturbations?  Any sideslip present at the tail of the airplane is going to produce a sideforce on the vertical stab/rudder.  This sideforce being above the cg is going to induce a rolling moment.  This sideslip at the tail can come from different sources.  The prop swirl is one we are just recently observing with the electric’s that can run both tractor or pusher.   My only point here is that the fuselage does produce a roll coupling from yaw, but I think a more dominant contributor is the vertical stab/rudder’ influence.  I think Igor covers the situation of large leadout rake quite well by using  a “coelacanth” rudder that has equal volume above and below the center of gravity.  The MaxBee rudder has enough area to provide yaw damping, at the same time without producing a roll coupling.

Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2017, 02:39:40 PM »
Working on memory here, but some time ago there was a post from a modeler who had built his wing upside-down for some reason and had the lead-outs on the short wing panel.  He was all concerned and some people advised him to complete the model and fly it.  He did and apparently no undesirable traits were observed.

Somewhere along the line, someone posted an experiment of building the same model several times with the fuselage in different locations on the wing, making the inboard panel longer, making both panels the same and making the inboard panel shorter.  The opinion of the builder based on the tests was that it didn't make any difference where the fuselage was on the wing.  Once trimmed out, all the models flew the same.

Again, I am counting on memory for this.
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2017, 03:49:34 PM »
Working on memory here, but some time ago there was a post from a modeler who had built his wing upside-down for some reason and had the lead-outs on the short wing panel.  He was all concerned and some people advised him to complete the model and fly it.  He did and apparently no undesirable traits were observed.

Somewhere along the line, someone posted an experiment of building the same model several times with the fuselage in different locations on the wing, making the inboard panel longer, making both panels the same and making the inboard panel shorter.  The opinion of the builder based on the tests was that it didn't make any difference where the fuselage was on the wing.  Once trimmed out, all the models flew the same.

Again, I am counting on memory for this.

Dick I would say that there was no 'noticeable' difference or 'not enough' to be observed.

The premise that the above is based on is that it doesn't matter where the 3 dimensional centre of lift is in relation to the centre of gravity in a span wise direction.

If that were true then Palmer differential flaps would not roll the model - but sadly they do.

And seriously if we go to extremes here and consider say a speed model that is all inboard wing and all outboard fuselage, do you not think that this design would not have a rolling couple upon manoeuvres? Or a savage inward yaw when sharp turns were made?
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Offline Dick Pacini

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2017, 08:40:07 PM »
I am Swiss on the whole discussion.  I just passed on some info I remembered. 
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2017, 09:06:01 AM »
My old model has a giant fin and has roll coupling. It also has twisted the fuse and the inboard stab tip is high so flies inboard tip down in level, flies about wings level in the rounds, and drops the outboard in corners, upright. It does it all reverse inverted but since it's so heavy and forward CG it just gives me a rest from line tension inverted. Since no one can see the overheads including myelf I don't know what it does except allow me to stretch a little before the Four Leaf;
My question is how do I get my front SU carb to have equal suction to the rear on my MGB using a single Unisyn?
Chris...

Online Larry Fernandez

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Re: More Lift on Right
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2017, 11:11:59 AM »
Quote from: Chris McMillin
My question is how do I get my front SU carb to have equal suction to the rear on my MGB using a single Unisyn?
Chris...
[/quote


Hi Chris
I would replace the muffler bearing.
Of course you will need to pack it with a heavy duty, relative bearing grease.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team


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