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Author Topic: Hard Point vs EZ adjust  (Read 7807 times)

Offline Chris Fretz

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Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« on: March 29, 2016, 07:33:08 AM »
Ive never used a Hard Point handle, why do people like them? Why do people like the EZ adjust on certain airplanes? What are the benefits and disadvantages of both?
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2016, 08:14:41 AM »
I like the feel of a hard point handle response wise. They are a bit more difficult to set up with the intended plane as opposed to a handle that has cables that can be adjusted on the spot to get nuetral controls on the plane.
Of late I have trying a Biased hard point and really like it.
All that said.....I am still in a huge learning phase and still experimenting on things. Especially handles.
Hopefully you'll hear from some experts on here.
I'm sure that are many opinions on the matter.
Shug
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2016, 08:27:17 AM »
I seem to find that when I ask a question on here an get an answer it just ends up leading to more questions.   HB~>
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 08:54:30 AM »
So thats what a Bias handle is.. interesting! Do you use the eyebolt to adjust the lines to neutral?
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 09:00:05 AM »
I started flying stunt with a cable handle and did ok. Then I made myself a hard point handle and it was so much better the difference was night and day. My advise is, it's well worth the time/money to try a hard point handle because it may be a game changer for you. Now if you have a plane that's a little squirrely like a ringmaster or flight streak the cable handle might help smooth it out but a full modern PA plane I pick hard point handle every time.

MM

Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2016, 09:42:10 AM »
So thats what a Bias handle is.. interesting! Do you use the eyebolt to adjust the lines to neutral?
I did for a wee bit of the adjustment. Use line clips or cut and re-wrap lines to get your neutral.
Shug



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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2016, 09:53:14 AM »
I did for a wee bit of the adjustment. Use line clips or cut and re-wrap lines to get your neutral.
Shug



   It is very important to get rid of the bias now, rather than develop bad habits now that you will want to get rid of later. If you like it better with this extreme amount of bias, you are probably holding your arm too straight

     Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2016, 10:08:36 AM »
I started flying stunt with a cable handle and did ok. Then I made myself a hard point handle and it was so much better the difference was night and day. My advise is, it's well worth the time/money to try a hard point handle because it may be a game changer for you. Now if you have a plane that's a little squirrely like a ringmaster or flight streak the cable handle might help smooth it out but a full modern PA plane I pick hard point handle every time.

MM
Why don't hard points work with squirrely planes? What is a PA plane?
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2016, 10:19:01 AM »
I tried to find a thread that went into this, but didn't find the exact right one.

Here's a thread, but it isn't the be-all, end-all thread: http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/hard-point-handles-34623/

Basic qualities involved:

  • A cable handle uses a length of cable through the handle or bar.  You adjust neutral by moving the cable.  An EZ-Just is a cable handle
  • Most modern stunt handles are adjustable for line spacing, using multiple holes (for a hard-point) movable pivots (for a cable handle) or movable anchors (for a hard point).  An EZ-Just handle is not adjustable for line spacing.
  • A "hard point" handle is one rigid unit, with holes or eyebolts for the line attach points.  See the above thread for pictures.
  • There's a handle out there called the "Kaz" handle (someone correct me if necessary) that's like a cable handle only it uses kevlar for the "cable" -- this overcomes the biggest argument against cable handles

People who like hard point handles feel that it gives you a more solid connection to the plane, because you're not losing any control motion to cable flex at the handle. 

Many people fly better with a lighter handle -- An EZ-just handle is probably around 100 grams, a hard-point handle from Brodak's is something like 60gm (if I remember correctly).  I can feel the difference between a 20gm handle made from a hunk of PC board and a 16gm handle made from carbon fiber plate.  The difference between a 100gm handle and a 20gm handle is awesome, that between 20gm and 16gm is noticeable because I know what to look for.  However -- some people claim that a super-light handle doesn't do anything for them.  It's probably easier to make a light hard-point handle than a light cable-style handle.

Cable handles tend to wear out their cables right at the point where they pivot.  This isn't necessarily a weakness, but it's certainly something you should be aware of, and watch for.

Attached is a picture of the handle style that I use.  Some people will criticize it for having too much overhang -- I won't argue, but it works for me and I seem to need a lot less line spacing than most people (people crash my planes if they fly them with my handle.  I don't crash other people's planes if I use their handle, but that's because I know what to expect).  This is a variation on the "Ted" style handle (after Ted Fancher, who claims he copied it from Paul Walker).  It weighs about 16 grams without the wrist strap.  Line spacing adjustment is obvious.  Neutral adjustment is by changing to a different line clip.

Most people who use a hard-point handle have a line clip bender (available from Jim Lee), but someone (can't remember, can't remember) has sets of clips in different lengths that you can just buy.  If you're cheap and have a good eye you can also bend your own clips with a pair of round-nose pliers, but if you do you'll feel really motivated to get a bender.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2016, 10:20:15 AM »
Why don't hard points work with squirrely planes? What is a PA plane?

   They do work with squirrelly planes. The theory is that the compliance of a cable handle "filters out" some of the tendency to overcontrol. Possibly true, but it also makes it more difficult to intentionally control the same sensitivity. In any case, the solution is to fix the airplane, not make the control more vague. I can't imagine a case where reducing your ability to control the airplane improves anything.

   PA = Precision Aerobatics. No one ever calls it that in real life - "Stunt" has worked fine for 70ish years.

     Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2016, 10:22:35 AM »
   They do work with squirrelly planes. The theory is that the compliance of a cable handle "filters out" some of the tendency to overcontrol. Possibly true, but it also makes it more difficult to intentionally control the same sensitivity. In any case, the solution is to fix the airplane, not make the control more vague. I can't imagine a case where reducing your ability to control the airplane improves anything.

You can get the same effect by decreasing line spacing.  Until I modified it's control system, my Ringmaster flew with something like a 2-1/2 inch spacing at the handle.  "Springiness" was supplied by the compliance of the lines themselves, until I put on an outrageously long elevator horn and upped the handle spacing.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2016, 10:51:43 AM »
   It is very important to get rid of the bias now, rather than develop bad habits now that you will want to get rid of later. If you like it better with this extreme amount of bias, you are probably holding your arm too straight

     Brett
What bad habits can you aquire from a bias handle?
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2016, 11:11:32 AM »
   It is very important to get rid of the bias now, rather than develop bad habits now that you will want to get rid of later. If you like it better with this extreme amount of bias, you are probably holding your arm too straight

     Brett
All I can say is it feels good to me right now. I gotta go thrugh my process. This ol' boy has years to go to get to your level and how will I know things if I don't actually try them? I appreciate opinions and will listen but I also need a bit of playing with all the various handle types. Also I know I need to find more time to perfect my plane trimming but Time is not so available currently to spend the time on CL that I would like.
Mt quest continues......
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2016, 11:36:18 AM »
All I can say is it feels good to me right now. I gotta go thrugh my process. This ol' boy has years to go to get to your level and how will I know things if I don't actually try them? I appreciate opinions and will listen but I also need a bit of playing with all the various handle types. Also I know I need to find more time to perfect my plane trimming but Time is not so available currently to spend the time on CL that I would like.
Mt quest continues......

No no no.  You should do exactly what we say.  All of us.  At the same time.  Even when we contradict.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2016, 12:32:34 PM »
No no no.  You should do exactly what we say.  All of us.  At the same time.  Even when we contradict.

When do "we" get to tell "you" what to do? #^ n~ LL~
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2016, 12:46:35 PM »
When do "we" get to tell "you" what to do? #^ n~ LL~

Good question!

Next question?
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2016, 01:04:39 PM »
Don't forget the Expo Hardpoint handle.  It is the only type I use!  #^

 Photos attached.
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Online john e. holliday

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2016, 02:04:26 PM »
I have tried about every handle style out there.  If you don't try any thing you will never know.  Just wish I had kept better notes.  All I really know is I have 4 Ringmasters and it has been fun trying to get them all to fly the same as the RSM Dist Ringmaster.  By the way it is the lightest of them.
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2016, 02:26:37 PM »
All I can say is it feels good to me right now. I gotta go thrugh my process. This ol' boy has years to go to get to your level and how will I know things if I don't actually try them? I appreciate opinions and will listen but I also need a bit of playing with all the various handle types. Also I know I need to find more time to perfect my plane trimming but Time is not so available currently to spend the time on CL that I would like.
Mt quest continues......

Don't worry too much about it, not everyone's wrist has the same range of movement. I even set my non biased handles for a little down bias, not quite the amount in your handle but noticeable. Joe Gilbert and I have a little trouble flying each others airplanes because he likes a tad up bias.

Offline Ken Burdick

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2016, 02:38:05 PM »
To me the hard point is a feel thing. The years of combat flying with a cable handle did well using it, but it wasn't until I started flying F2D that I noticed the difference. Most f2d set ups are hard point. To do well, you really need to work "inside" hand movements you were used to, mainly because the model would do it. That being said, I found many more control points were available to me once I got used to it....that took some time and a lot of practice. If I wanted to have maximum control, for my hand anyway, I would use a hard point.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2016, 06:31:33 PM »
Truthfully, I didn't notice a huge difference when I changed from a cable handle to a hardpoint handle, but when I was forced to temporarily change back to a cable handle, the difference was very obvious. Cables made me very unhappy!   D>K Steve
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2016, 06:46:28 PM »
No no no.  You should do exactly what we say.  All of us.  At the same time.  Even when we contradict.

I tried that once. Best flying day of my life! Also lost six planes... Hmmmmm

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2016, 07:08:43 PM »
"Biased" vs. "Non-Biased" handle. The best fliers fly with their elbow bent, the handle in front of their chest ^ face, and with their feet planted square to the centerline of the maneuver. Doing this, you need the non-biased handle.

One of the benefits I discovered from bending the elbow was that my shoulder didn't bother me after a day of flying "big" .51 > .60 powered stunters. Bending the elbow makes your muscles take the load of line tension, instead of stretching your tendons. The best fliers agree that this bent elbow & handle at centerline of body is the best posture, so they recommend learning that early in your training. Unlearning is easiest if you don't practice your bad habits too long.  H^^ Steve
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Online Larry Renger

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2016, 10:06:17 PM »
I will admit to having accumulated some really evil habits flying 1/2A models where you have to just about whip the plane through each maneuver. It looks like a ballet act, but is really detrimental when you fly something that actually wants to stay our on the lines. I have a bunch of "unlearning" to do.  :'(
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Offline Geoff Goodworth

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2016, 08:46:27 PM »
We've just had a club mate change from a circular Aeroflyte handle—like the one in the pic but die-cast aluminium—to a Brodak handle with the cable through the bar in a wide W configuration. He also has a Reyco handle like the Hot Rock.

He was unhappy with, and slightly un-nerved by, the extra input that he had to make before the model responded. He was surprised by the amount of movement required to pull the cable tight on both handles. To be fair, we were talking with me demonstrating after he had packed up and there was no pre-load from the model when I was pulling on the cables in both handles. None-the-less, he was surprised by the amount of movement that was clearly visible.

This weekend, we will be taking the cable and its adjustment sliders off so he can try hard points using SIG eyebolts just like Tom Morris' hard point handles.

I've only ever used the hard point Tom Morris handles and while I had a few with vertical bias, I switched to the unbiased version immediately I became aware of them.

Also, while lacking the flying ability and experience of many here, I have found that all of my models that have hunted were fixed by ensuring that there was no stiction in the control system. My Ringmaster was one that hunted but on close inspection, I found the pushrod was dragging on the cutout where it exited the wing. A couple of passes with the trusty Swiss Army knife that lives with my house keys solved the problem.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:33 PM »
All I can say is it feels good to me right now. I gotta go thrugh my process. This ol' boy has years to go to get to your level and how will I know things if I don't actually try them? I appreciate opinions and will listen but I also need a bit of playing with all the various handle types.

     Do whatever you want, of course, but you have the logic backwards a bit. Those with less skill will need *better* equipment and setup to succeed. I could make a presentable show of it with almost any airplane that will get through a pattern, and I am not particularly well regarded as a natural pilot like Ted, RJ, or the ultimate master of flying other people's airplanes, Bart Klapinski.

    This is really fundamental stuff, and I guarantee you that you will find it far harder to fix this later. The primary benefit of having more experience is knowing what *not* to do.

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2016, 10:14:13 PM »
When do "we" get to tell "you" what to do? #^ n~ LL~

When you win a National Championship, or at least start consistently flying Expert level scores in the 560's or higher!

Actually you can start telling everyone what to do anytime you like but the above statement tells you when we'll start listening!  LL~ LL~ LL~

Using a Biased handle works for some people but it does require you to move your arm (due to limited wrist motion) more in the down direction than in the up position to get equal control movements and there fore in my opinion is much less precise.

In other words it's doing it the hard way...if that's your bag then by all means do it that way but  all bets are you'll progress faster with an unbiased handle.  Personally I think it's hard enough to fly a precise pattern without deliberately making it harder!

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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2016, 03:51:33 AM »

Using a Biased handle works for some people but it does require you to move your arm (due to limited wrist motion) more in the down direction than in the up position to get equal control movements and there fore in my opinion is much less precise.

In other words it's doing it the hard way...if that's your bag then by all means do it that way but  all bets are you'll progress faster with an unbiased handle.  Personally I think it's hard enough to fly a precise pattern without deliberately making it harder!

Randy Cuberly

I found this the most informed answer to why not to use a Biased handle. Thanks for clearing that up,  makes sense.
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Offline Andrew Tinsley

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2016, 12:08:11 PM »
I learnt to fly with a hard point handle and have used one ever since for the past 60 years. I tried a cable handle once about 10 years ago and was quite unnerved with the soggy feel. Almost as bad as bad as Cox Dacron lines! Well I jest, but the difference was quite startling.

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Offline Curt D Contrata

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2016, 05:19:44 PM »
@ Shug, regarding a biased handle

If nothing else, it makes it impossible for others to fly your plane and help you trim it. The flip side to this is that it makes it impossible for you to fly someone else's perfectly trimmed model to experience what a well trimmed model should feel like. Btw, getting that opportunity is a life changing experience.

It really comes down to your personal goals.

Curt

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2016, 06:23:42 PM »
I still fly with a cable handle, but have not switched ONLY because i haven't decided which hard point to buy. Any suggestions? I like the feel and size of the small ez just, and I don't think i like finger grips style handles. Not opposed to that though

Offline Joe Gilbert

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2016, 08:48:32 PM »
In my opinion the Fancher hard point are the best. Light weight and adjustable. Every thing I fly has a dedicated handle from the Ringmaster to the NATS planes. Good luck with what ever you decide to use 
Joe Gilbert

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2016, 09:32:10 PM »
The TED (Fancher) handles are in essence, a copy of the Hot Rock as far as the grip goes. It's really important to make the handle a snug fit across your four (I hope!) fingers. Add or remove balsa as required to make that happen, and shape it all so it's a comfortable fit. I've seen a few that looked like they'd never been visited by sandpaper, but they were still pretty comfortable. I took a lot of balsa off mine with some carving and much sandpaper work. There's a lot of extra, IMO.

Then, coat it with epoxy finishing resin and wrap it with the grip tape of your choice...I have used fishing rod handle wrap from BPS and like it fine. Dragging it across the asphalt roughens it up a little. Tennis racket or golf club grip tape would work fine, I'm sure. Just don't ask for "gripe tape". There are other choices, too. Just don't use duct tape or electrical tape.  n1 Steve
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2016, 09:33:35 PM »
I found this the most informed answer to why not to use a Biased handle. Thanks for clearing that up,  makes sense.
I found this the most informed answer to why not to use a Biased handle. Thanks for clearing that up,  makes sense.

Let me add this extreme example of what Randy is explaining.  I've told this story a number of times but it never seems to eliminate the repeated questions about biased versus non-biased neutrals.

A late very good friend and flying partner for several decades, Bill Fitzgerald, was having a problem with his "WAM Class A stunt ship" a Sig Banshee with a Veco .19BB in it.  Now I know Bill was a fine flier because he and I had many a battle back in '60s as advanced and then expert WAM fliers.  I also know because he spawned a brash kid named David Fitzgerald who utilized genius DNA, talent and dedication to become a pretty successful stunt pilot as well.  Lost count of the number of times his name is on the Walker Trophy but I do know there's only one name on it more often than his.

Daddy Bill flew well despite flying with a significantly biased handle position at neutral and was sort of in the forefront of the adjustable handle era as he modified Hot Rocks with an aluminum bar in front that allowed adjustable line spacing.  (This was a long time before Bob Baron made the adjustable handle ubiquitous in the stunt world).  He also liked to fly with a lot of handle movement for a given airplane response (i.e. slow controls) which he accomplished by using narrow handle line spacing in concert with the then "standard" three inch bellcrank and Veco Control horns (the largest pushrod arm of which was only 1/2 inch...although the Banshee probably had the then latest thing, bolt on nylon, horns [probably Perfect, but don't quote me]).  The problem was that, despite this attention to detail and then state of the art handle adjustability, the dang thing wouldn't turn outsides!

In either case the on-board system lent itself to pretty fast controls so Bill achieved his desired slower response rate by narrowing the line spacing at the handle as mentioned above.  The airplane itself was built with Bill's typically exacting attention to control system detail.   The controls when activated by the leadouts on the ground provided plenty of flap/elevator deflection...on the bench everything looked just fine!

When Bill grew frustrated with the lack of outside turn on the Banshee he asked if I would fly it and see what I thought.  I did so using his handle as he had it set up.  For me it was very difficult to fly because it had "instant" up control and almost no down control using my preferred inputs.  In fact, when I simply held max down displacement a very large outside loop was the best result obtainable.  An outside square corner was out of the question...as Bill had stated repeatedly.

After landing, I asked if I could put my own handle on the ship and fly it again with my preferred vertical neutral and handle line spacing.  “Sure”, Bill said and we launched again.  As if by magic, the airplane flew just like Banshees of my own and I was able to fly the airplane competitively...the outsides were just fine and nice tight squares were a cinch.

A light bulb lit up in my cranium.  After landing I put Bill's handle back on the lines and did an experiment.  First, we gave full up control and the flap/elevator deflection was exactly the same as when the leadouts themselves were pulled...full up!

When, however, down control was applied (full down with the grip parallel to the ground and the up and down lines totally overlapped) there was only a fraction of the down control deflection that was available when they were activated manually by the leadouts.

The combination of the very narrow line spacing at the handle combined with the relaxed (biased) neutral setting simply did not allow the pilot to access the control displacement provided by the on-board system.  At least half of what was built in was unavailable!

Granted, this was an extreme example but it was not the only such airplane I've found afflicted by exactly the same physical control system flaw.  One other was the competition airplane of a very competitive flyer at a major west coast meet.   I only looked at the airplane closely because I had been alarmed when he flew his outside square corners  because doing so required that his arm be extended straight down with--just like Bill's--the lines laying on top of one another at the handle supplying all the down control the handle was capable of providing.  In the pits after the flight I surreptitiously performed the same experiment; inputting down from both the handle and by pulling the leadouts at the airplane and found that, as with Bill’s Banshee, it was not possible to obtain full available down control utilizing the handle.

This inability to obtain all the down available has been and most certainly will in the future be thought by the pilot to be an aerodynamic trim problem with the airplane itself which will be addressed by the pilot in ways that will compromise rather than enhance the performance of the entire package.

Aside from the compromises this places on flying well and consistently--especially in demanding air conditions--the “down” biased handle will require some degree of movement of the pilot’s entire arm down and away from the airplane which will simultaneously pull the airplane toward the pilot increasing line tension and altering the trimmed yaw relationship so carefully established during flight trimming the leadout guide position.

This is so because--unlike up control which allows the pilot multiple sources of handle displacement with more modest “toward the pilot” forces: wrist, finger, elbow and upward arm movement at the shoulder or any combination thereo--enhanced down control requires what little down wrist deflection remains after the neutral bias plus moving the entire shoulder to finger complex downward and back ward.  (Note also that the axis of rotation of all but the tiny bit of left over down angle of the wrist is at the shoulder which multiplies the “muscle” necessary to input that additional control deflection.  IOW, the problem multiplies itself.  The "human" end of the control system is not symmetrical and, for best performance, the effect of that asymmetry should be limited to the greatest degree possible. 

None of the above are an asset to flying excellent, repeatable CLPA tricks!

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2016, 11:55:42 AM »
I've  been fascinated by the repeated interest in the subject of  handles in recent years; especially the interest in the physical/mechanical relationships between the implement and the user.  Do a search on handles on Sparky's site and you'll be flooded with threads on exactly the same types of discussion we're having right now.

I've been in the Stunt Biz for more decades than I care to admit to and believe the amount of time spent on the subject in the last ten or so years has been greater than all of the years of CLPA before then. 

Back in 1985 I wrote a series of two Model Aviation stunt columns on handles including the first ever--of which I'm aware--discussion of overhang and its effects on feel, etc.  Those of you interested enough to be involved in these more recent threads may enjoy reading these from 30 years ago and seeing if they bring to mind any other handle issues worthy of revisiting today.  They include some hand drafted tables and figures that Howard will find amusing but by far the most interesting parts, I believe, are in the text itself.

If you're an AMA member it is easy to find them using their Model Aviation search engine on the AMA site.  Try searching under Ted Fancher in the issue months of February and March, 1985 and they should pop right up.  I'm curious whether a revue of those articles will bring other subjects to the fore.  As I recall, there was little overt interest at the time as they predated most of what we take for granted in proper stunt handle today although they do utilize much of today's language.  In those days the talk was more or less centered around the big EZ Just or it's baby brother the Hot Rock.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2016, 12:10:31 PM »
A quick mea culpa about the previous post regarding the 1985 MA articles.  I just pulled out and reread them and noted comments that made it clear that by the time I wrote them I had already switched to a modified Bob Baron adjustable handle.  No big deal, just wanted to make sure you are aware of the time line and the state of the "handle industry" at the time.

Ted

p.s. Note that the example drawings look very much like an EZ Just Hot Rock; no surprise since I felt then and continue to feel that its symmetrical shape with short projections above and below the grip for fine tuning inputs with the trigger or pinky finger is the perfect complement to a well crafted and geometrically correct airborne system.  A quick glance at a picture of a Ted handle will also appear very familiar.

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2016, 01:27:12 PM »
I make my own to fit my hand. As little overhang as possible and about  a half ounce in weight.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2016, 02:17:42 PM »
I make my own to fit my hand. As little overhang as possible and about  a half ounce in weight.

Izat plywood?  Do you bush the holes with anything?
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Offline Shug Emery

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2016, 02:37:01 PM »
I have pondered what I have read from real experts on here and my other thread and take it to heart. It has me thinking more about arm/wrist position and movements. I've been flying very straight armed as I progress through my last two seasons back at Stunt. Seems that was recommended but a lot of folks have helped me by telling me a lot of stuff.
Now my focus will be to go back to the un-biased hard point and focus on my arm bent a bit and in center of body.
I just hooked all my handles up in the backyard just to feel them in the bent-elbow center body area. So I think I saw some things. I'll know next time I get to fly.
As this is my third season back....my focus maybe needs to be in these very important areas. Not as much info on handles and body/arm position as I thought there might be.
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Offline Larrys4227

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #39 on: April 01, 2016, 02:44:06 PM »
I have pondered what I have read from real experts on here and my other thread and take it to heart. It has me thinking more about arm/wrist position and movements. I've been flying very straight armed as I progress through my last two seasons back at Stunt. Seems that was recommended but a lot of folks have helped me by telling me a lot of stuff.
Now my focus will be to go back to the un-biased hard point and focus on my arm bent a bit and in center of body.
I just hooked all my handles up in the backyard just to feel them in the bent-elbow center body area. So I think I saw some things. I'll know next time I get to fly.
As this is my third season back....my focus maybe needs to be in these very important areas. Not as much info on handles and body/arm position as I thought there might be.
Shug

Is it possible to take that biased handle you tried ... and turn it into a non-biased?  The shape looks like it could be done, but maybe the bar across the front would scrap your knuckles.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #40 on: April 01, 2016, 07:47:46 PM »
I make my own to fit my hand. As little overhang as possible and about  a half ounce in weight.

Like Tim, I'd be interested in more info on your handle. Bigger picture would help a lot, and an accurate weight would be most excellent. How many layers of what sort of plywood, etc.?  ??? TIA,  Steve
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Offline bill rutherford

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #41 on: April 01, 2016, 09:48:42 PM »
I guess the next subject in this discussion will be solid lines and hard point  handles . I won't be going down that road again. I had pretty good success with a Hot Rock and solid lines .  Bill

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2016, 05:51:39 AM »
Bill and Tim, my handle is made from .125  5 ply plywood, the best grade I can find. The holes are .125 mainly because the connectors need that size to pass through. After drilling I soak the area with this CyA. I bush some with plastic tubing and some with r/c servo thimbles but most are not. There is a layer of .125 balsa on each side of the grip rounded off with sandpaper. Some handles have an end cover of .015 aluminum sheet for the .60 size planes. The aluminum extends from the top of the balsa to the edge by the holes or it covers all that the grip doesn't. I use "Vetrap" and the sticky gauze they use for tape at the doctors for the grip covering. Vetrap is from Tractor supply and the gauze from the drug store. The finished handle sans thong is 14 grams the aluminum ads a few more grams. The grip area is copied from an EZ-Just handle. The one shown has the least line spacing and I have templates for handles with more spacing. I cut the grip radius,at the fingers, with a spade drill or speed bore to fit my finger size and located to fit my hand. Cut from both sides for a clean cut. I drill an .125 hole in the middle of the grip area so I can "nail" the handle to the ground when bringing the plane back to the launch area so the lines won't drag on the grass and twist up. I fly alone mostly. The thong is made from medium size lawn mower pull starter cord I got from a mower shop in bulk, about 30 cents a foot. I'm trying to figure a way to get less overhang on the same handle without drilling through a finger. Stay tuned. Less overhang is good. 
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline MikeyPratt

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2016, 11:34:32 AM »
A quick mea culpa about the previous post regarding the 1985 MA articles.  I just pulled out and reread them and noted comments that made it clear that by the time I wrote them I had already switched to a modified Bob Baron adjustable handle.  No big deal, just wanted to make sure you are aware of the time line and the state of the "handle industry" at the time.

Ted

p.s. Note that the example drawings look very much like an EZ Just Hot Rock; no surprise since I felt then and continue to feel that its symmetrical shape with short projections above and below the grip for fine tuning inputs with the trigger or pinky finger is the perfect complement to a well crafted and geometrically correct airborne system.  A quick glance at a picture of a Ted handle will also appear very familiar.

Hi Guy's,
Just to second Teds advice, here is a photo of a handle I produced and sold many years ago based on Teds hard point.  It worked very well at that time.  The latest revision of my handle has no bias at all, has adjustable over hang.  Not a big deal because I've found that the less overhang I used, the better the overall pattern was with respect to position and placement of the maneuvers.  With no bias in the handle, almost no overhang, and adjustable line clips (for neutral adjustment) is the best set up for stunt flying. 

This handle only weighed 1 ounce with the teather and the balsa handle grips.  It took a season to forget the bias in the handle before I was comfortable with.  Old habits are hard to get over and relearn things.

Later,
Mikey

Offline Guy B Jr

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2016, 04:58:10 PM »
Being a retread, I have been using what I used 40 years ago, a Hot Rock handle. I have a "Ted" handle to assemble and was given three biased, hard point handles mfg by a prominent supplier. I decided to make the biased handles usable by removing the bias. See the attached picture. I slightly bent the hard point bar. Then installed a longer bolt at the top of the handle using jam nuts on the longer bolt under the bar and next to the wood handle. Can't wait to try it out.
Guy Blankinship

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2016, 06:54:09 PM »
Could someone clear up what overhang is for me? ???
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2016, 06:59:33 PM »
Could someone clear up what overhang is for me? ???

  The distance from your wrist to point that the lines connect. The longer it is, the more effort it takes to deflect the controls against the line tension.

    Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Hard Point vs EZ adjust
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2016, 07:21:48 PM »
I decided to make the biased handles usable by removing the bias. See the attached picture.

Except you've increased, rather than decreased the overhang.  I'm not sure if it'll be good enough -- to really make things as best as you can you'd whack the top down until the eye bolts just barely clear your knuckles.

So -- good job!  Now do more!
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