Hard Point Handles

[Motorman]

Last year I made my own handle with 1/16th braided cable. Someone told me to make the connection points closer to the grip and it did make a difference. Then I made an adjustable hard point handle and the difference was like night and day. The connection points are out in front of my knuckles and my question is, is there anything to be gained by making the connection points closer to the center of the grip?

MM

[Brett Buck]

Last year I made my own handle with 1/16th braided cable. Someone told me to make the connection points closer to the grip and it did make a difference. Then I made an adjustable hard point handle and the difference was like night and day. The connection points are out in front of my knuckles and my question is, is there anything to be gained by making the connection points closer to the center of the grip?

     I run them near the limits of as short as I can get it, that is, the carriers for the hard points are nearly hitting my fingers.

    Brett

[Paul Walker]

     I run them near the limits of as short as I can get it, that is, the carriers for the hard points are nearly hitting my fingers.

    Brett

Ditto what Brett said. Plus, my handle weighs 18 grams!

[Motorman]

Here are some pics. First my handle evolution. Hot rock, bought this forget where, U-reely copy see below, Hot Rock copy with mods, adjustable Hard Point.



The U reely turned me on to 1" thick handles but the angle threw me off while stunting so, this is my new endurance handle.



My hard points are fine thread thumb screws from Ace. They have a nut in the back and the front to lock them. Spaced at 4" to get a 1:1 with a 4" bellcrank. Just wondering if I should get them back farther.



MM

[Tim Wescott]

You want to be able to adjust the line spacing.  Search on "Fancher handle".

Or find Paul's note on his 18-gram handle, and copy that.

[Perry Rose]

Remove the front nut or use a thinner one.

[Joe Yau]

The overhang adjustment is just as critical.. Ted's handle has adjustment for both (line spacing & overhang). 

[Motorman]

What's so important about line spacing? 4" seems to be fine for me.

[Mark Scarborough]

because different airplanes require different response and control input,, it allows you to adjust it so that all of your airplanes respond the same,, that way you dont screw up your muscle memory while flying the pattern

[Dave_Trible]

What's so important about line spacing? 4" seems to be fine for me.

So you can set the airplane at IT'S proper CG and adjust the response or 'feel' of the control handle to suit you.  You won't kill a good airplane with a lot of nose weight.  Adjustments as little as 1/8" are felt and noticed. For me this is just as fundamental to trimming the whole flight package as anything else.

Dave

[Brett Buck]

What's so important about line spacing? 4" seems to be fine for me.

     It's critical to be able to adjust the airplane independently of the handle. You get the airplane working the way it works the best, then adjust the handle to make it suit your needs. Otherwise you have to adjust the airplane sensitivity (typically the CG) to get what you want regardless of whether the airplane works best that way or not.

    I very frequently change my handle spacing based on what I am feeling on a particular day and as conditions vary. My Ted handle has holes separated by ~1/8" and sometimes I need in-between steps.

   Brett

[Allan Perret]

Ditto what Brett said. Plus, my handle weighs 18 grams!

Wow !  18 grams, what material is it made from ?  
Seems like it would be hard to make one that light and still have the necessary strength.

[Paul Walker]

The carbon core is 3/32" woven laminate I bought from "Dragon Plate". I cut it with a dremel dangerous disk,  and finish sanded it.
 
The holes are lined with brass inserts for wear. If you just drill and install clip without brass insert, the carbon will wear very fast.

The carbon has a balsa grip, finished with epoxy and then wrapped with a tennis racket grip strap.

Might take all of an hour to make!

[Doug Moon]

I keep trying hard point handles but I always get the same results.  Which leads me right back to the bar and cable rig. 

[Dave_Trible]

Me too Doug.  I get hung over with hangover.

Dave

[Tim Wescott]

The carbon core is 3/32" woven laminate I bought from "Dragon Plate". I cut it with a dremel dangerous disk,  and finish sanded it.
 
The holes are lined with brass inserts for wear. Font just drill and install Clio.  It will wear very fast.

The carbon has a balsa grip, finished with epoxy and then wrapped with a tennis racket grip strap.

Might take all of an hour to make!

I think we should bump the appearance points up to 25, and allocate the 5 to the appearance of the handle & lines.

[Paul Walker]

I keep trying hard point handles but I always get the same results.  Which leads me right back to the bar and cable rig. 

Doug,
What results are those?

[Paul Taylor]

Doug,
What results are those?

Ditto - Im thinking about trying a hard point handle.

[Doug Moon]

Doug,
What results are those?

I can't seem to get the correct angles on the straight legs and I have a heck of time flying two maneuvers in a row on top of each other.  Tried it on solids and cables.  How on earth do you guys fly on cables?  Yuck!  

A long time ago at a flying field very close by when an older stunt Jedi advised me on the virtues of said hard point handle, give it a try I did. This was on one of my smaller Gieseke piped models from 1999.  It was instantly dominant!  It was as if I was flying with my hand on the BC.  I was floored out how easy it became to fly this model using a hard point handle.  All the weird wiggles or misses here and there that were never consistently there from flight to flight just went away. I was like, "Whoa! When I get this on my big rig they better look out!"  What is a stunt guy to do when he finds some new bad ass stunt item?  Buy 5 of them, of course.  This was when Ted was selling them as a build your own kit.  Well, it was never to be.  But not for lack of trying.  I still have a couple of those handles in the garage and I will try it again on my new sled that is awaiting a very long marinated paint scheme.  

But for now this will have to do....

[john e. holliday]

I'm old enough to remember when I could afford only one or two handles.   They were the E-Z Just Hot Rock and the bigger handle.   The big handle was for combat and the Hot Rock was for stunt and racing.   Made the planes fly the way I wanted at the time.   I still used Richard Byron's handle on a couple of planes as they fly better to my feeling.   The Fancher handle works on a couple of planes the other handle doesn't like. 

[Allan Perret]

I can't seem to get the correct angles on the straight legs and I have a heck of time flying two maneuvers in a row on top of each other.  Tried it on solids and cables.  How on earth do you guys fly on cables?  Yuck!  

A long time ago at a flying field very close by when an older stunt Jedi advised me on the virtues of said hard point handle, give it a try I did. This was on one of my smaller Gieseke piped models from 1999.  It was instantly dominant!  It was as if I was flying with my hand on the BC.  I was floored out how easy it became to fly this model using a hard point handle.  All the weird wiggles or misses here and there that were never consistently there from flight to flight just went away. I was like, "Whoa! When I get this on my big rig they better look out!"  What is a stunt guy to do when he finds some new bad ass stunt item?  Buy 5 of them, of course.  This was when Ted was selling them as a build your own kit.  Well, it was never to be.  But not for lack of trying.  I still have a couple of those handles in the garage and I will try it again on my new sled that is awaiting a very long marinated paint scheme.  

But for now this will have to do....

Seems really strange that you would notice such a dramatic difference on the smaller model but not on the bigger birds.   I had a hard time swapping over from cable handles, but once I adjusted to the new feel of hard points the benefits translate to any size plane for me..

[Joe Yau]

I find that with some planes.. it needs a bit of overhang like around 1 1/4" or so (from the grip to the line clip) to be able to get the feel.  and sometimes it needs to be steggered a little like 1 3/16" up & 1 3/8" down. then you'll need to readjust the line length with the line clips.   not sure if that is the case..

[Randy Cuberly]

I can't seem to get the correct angles on the straight legs and I have a heck of time flying two maneuvers in a row on top of each other.  Tried it on solids and cables.  How on earth do you guys fly on cables?  Yuck!  

A long time ago at a flying field very close by when an older stunt Jedi advised me on the virtues of said hard point handle, give it a try I did. This was on one of my smaller Gieseke piped models from 1999.  It was instantly dominant!  It was as if I was flying with my hand on the BC.  I was floored out how easy it became to fly this model using a hard point handle.  All the weird wiggles or misses here and there that were never consistently there from flight to flight just went away. I was like, "Whoa! When I get this on my big rig they better look out!"  What is a stunt guy to do when he finds some new bad ass stunt item?  Buy 5 of them, of course.  This was when Ted was selling them as a build your own kit.  Well, it was never to be.  But not for lack of trying.  I still have a couple of those handles in the garage and I will try it again on my new sled that is awaiting a very long marinated paint scheme.  

But for now this will have to do....

Doug,
Looking at those cables I would have to say that you got used to flying with a sponge for a handle and just happen to be so talented that it didn't matter...
Some guys can compensate for anything!  , But it has to be compensation!

Randy Cuberly

[Paul Taylor]

I can't seem to get the correct angles on the straight legs and I have a heck of time flying two maneuvers in a row on top of each other.  Tried it on solids and cables.  How on earth do you guys fly on cables?  Yuck!  

A long time ago at a flying field very close by when an older stunt Jedi advised me on the virtues of said hard point handle, give it a try I did. This was on one of my smaller Gieseke piped models from 1999.  It was instantly dominant!  It was as if I was flying with my hand on the BC.  I was floored out how easy it became to fly this model using a hard point handle.  All the weird wiggles or misses here and there that were never consistently there from flight to flight just went away. I was like, "Whoa! When I get this on my big rig they better look out!"  What is a stunt guy to do when he finds some new bad ass stunt item?  Buy 5 of them, of course.  This was when Ted was selling them as a build your own kit.  Well, it was never to be.  But not for lack of trying.  I still have a couple of those handles in the garage and I will try it again on my new sled that is awaiting a very long marinated paint scheme.  

But for now this will have to do....

So are you calling this a hard point handle???

[Randy Cuberly]

So are you calling this a hard point handle???

Naw...Paul.  I suspect, judging from the name on the handle that this one won the Nationals...like I said...Talent, and hard work, will out!!

What he said was that he went back to this one after trying the Hard point handles.

Randy Cuberly

[Doug Moon]

Naw...Paul.  I suspect, judging from the name on the handle that this one won the Nationals...like I said...Talent, and hard work, will out!!

What he said was that he went back to this one after trying the Hard point handles.

Randy Cuberly

Randy is correct.

[Fred Cronenwett]

MM - Awesome handles, time to make more handles from my stash of redwood in the garage. I am going to ACE and find the stuff you used

Fred

[Dave_Trible]

In a big box of stuff I got with an engine from an estate sale was this handle.  It's a little heavy for me but very well made and quite adjustable.  Don't know if it was from our garage hobby industry or a one-off from the former owner.  Can anyone I.D. it?

Dave

[Mark Scarborough]

In a big box of stuff I got with an engine from an estate sale was this handle.  It's a little heavy for me but very well made and quite adjustable.  Don't know if it was from our garage hobby industry or a one-off from the former owner.  Can anyone I.D. it?

Dave

I forget who made them, but they are not one offs,, I have seen a couple

[Doug Moon]

In a big box of stuff I got with an engine from an estate sale was this handle.  It's a little heavy for me but very well made and quite adjustable.  Don't know if it was from our garage hobby industry or a one-off from the former owner.  Can anyone I.D. it?

Dave

I remember those.  You can adjust neutral during flight.

[john e. holliday]

Dave T., I think I have one of those handles in my stash some where.  If I remember right it was Bill Lee and John McCollum that made those.  All kinds of adjustments to get the plane to fly right if you knew what you were doing.

[Randy Cuberly]

In a big box of stuff I got with an engine from an estate sale was this handle.  It's a little heavy for me but very well made and quite adjustable.  Don't know if it was from our garage hobby industry or a one-off from the former owner.  Can anyone I.D. it?

Dave

Hi Dave,
I have one of those handles.  I got it from Bill Lee a bunch of years ago.  Not sure if he made them or had someone make them.  There were only a few available I think! 
Problems are two-fold for me.  Line spacing adjustments also results in overhang changes and the cables are extra spongy due to the bends that go through the nylon round guides...those bends also increase with adjustment of line spacing.
It is pretty however if that turns you on...

A good exercise in how to make a cable handle even worse for flying!

Randy Cuberly
PS:  I have a collection of handles that currently numbers 31 different types!

[Motorman]

MM - Awesome handles, time to make more handles from my stash of redwood in the garage. I am going to ACE and find the stuff you used Fred

Thanks Fred. The first one I made from poplar so, solid wood does hold up. Later I used 3 layers of 1/4" birch ply glued with titebond. The center piece forms the tab for the safety thong but, a tab glued on with epoxy works too. The thumb screws had to be ground down and drilled for the clip. Ace has some real crap steel in some of their hardware so don't leave it too thin anywhere. One thing I realized is that the hard points end up uneven after adjusting for neutral but, if your lines and lead outs are fairly even, a small amount doesn't seem to matter. They are a pain to adjust but on my serious planes I keep one handle and lines with each airplane.

MM

[Steve Helmick]

Nobody I fly with regularly adjusts the handle for neutral, they adjust the length of one clip (line length)...the other three are usually stock items from Sullivan or Brodak. We all set the "overhang" of our TED Handles equally, at minimum (whatever clears our fat fingers) and glue them solid with CA. Look at Paul's CF handle...NO overhang adjustment, and one clip longer than the other. It works better that way!

I'm worried about your suggestion to epoxy on a tab for the safety thong...not a good plan. In theory, the safety thong and your handle are to be pull tested the same amount as your lines/airplane. No, we don't actually do it, but at the NATS they do. Maybe at some other big contests also. If you were to laminate a tab into a recess in your handle with epoxy...and maybe pin it with a dowel (for overkill), it'd be absolutely fine.

When in doubt, check the rulebook. I also see somebody about every year show up with a safety thong that isn't a "noose" as required by the rulebook. The thong is required to be a self-tightening loop, so it cannot come off your wrist. If it's new technology to you, read the rulebook. Lots of requirements there on how to finish your line ends, what clips are legal, safety thong, etc.

I'm not sure on how a deviation from the rulebook would affect AMA insurance, especially since AMA insurance is secondary to your homeowner's/renter's insurance. The best idea is to never find that out, IMO. That means that when you get sued, your Homeowner's insurance pays first, AMA second, and only when the limit of your Homeowner's has been reached.  I've known several guys that were involved in court action due to an accident at a contest...none enjoyed the experience...at all. Just sayin', follow the book and be safe!   

The original question was what would happen if there was zero overhang, and I don't think that has been answered yet. It would reduce the control loads felt at the handle...the "self-neutralizing" that a LOT of overhang would have. Would it be a good thing? Well, it would require a pretty wide handle spacing, 4" to 5" for most of us, because we have fingers in the way...unless you wanted to offset the line attachment to the side. That might be an interesting experiment...same spacing, but offset the attachment points to be a bit left of the fingernails (for right-handed flying). This would be a doable experiment that wouldn't require a new plane. For the 4"-5" spacing scenario, the controls in the airplane would then have to be VERY slow to give "normal" response that would suit most of us. And it would probably take a bit of getting ourselves readjusted. Might be interesting to try, tho.    Steve 

[john e. holliday]

I remember years ago, I think it was the Japanese or Chinese team used rings on the end of the lines that fit their fingers.  Spacing was what ever fingers the rings were put on.  I imagine that put quite a strain on the fingers.  Also how would they have used a safety thong back then.

[Jared Hays]

I remember years ago, I think it was the Japanese or Chinese team used rings on the end of the lines that fit their fingers.  Spacing was what ever fingers the rings were put on.  I imagine that put quite a strain on the fingers.  Also how would they have used a safety thong back then.

George Lieb talks about this all the time...

[sadams714441]

So with all this info out there for a new person returning to control line flying which is a good alround handle to purchase now

[Randy Cuberly]

So with all this info out there for a new person returning to control line flying which is a good alround handle to purchase now

This question begs a question, which is;  What do you want to do when flying.  Are you serious about Stunt and flying competition?  Or do you just fly to be flying and really are not interested in learning to fly stunt maneuvers correctly and as best as you can.

If you're serious buy a couple of Fancher style handles from Carl Shoup, and set up a handle and lines for each airplane.

If you're not serious then just buy one of the popular Bar and cable Handles like the ones available from RSM or Brodaks.  They will allow you to use just the one handle and change from airplane to airplane with a simple neutral adjustment.  They will also prevent you from being as precise...unless of course you are Doug Moon and have that kind of talent in flying and trimming airplanes!

Randy Cuberly

[Tim Wescott]

Brodak's has hard-point handles, too, which is what I was talking about in my post:

http://brodak.com/handles/brodak-small-adjustable-handle.html

[Steve Helmick]

Those are heavy as sin, Tim. If you fly Saito .72s, you might not notice or care, but for small models that don't pull like a mule, not so nice. We had a couple of guys use them when they first came out, but they didn't use them for very long. They're so heavy that nobody even wanted to carry them to the center of the circle.  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

Brodak's has hard-point handles, too, which is what I was talking about in my post:

http://brodak.com/handles/brodak-small-adjustable-handle.html

Yeah Tim...but they're heavy and I don't like them so couldn't in good faith recommend them.

 

Randy Cuberly

[john e. holliday]

All you really need is one Fancher handle.   Make a set of lines for each airplane.   As stated somewhere use three clips same size and one that is made to make up the difference in line length.  If difference is more than 1/4 inch learn to make lines.   Leave the odd ball clip on the up line of each plane and you won't have to worry about adjustment and which is up or down.   But, really help Carl out and get at least 5 sets of the Fancher handle and paint ot match the plane they go on.   

[Dennis Toth]

Hanger 9 has a hard point that allows about 3/8" adjustment on each line. It is similar in shape to the EZjust and between the small and large for size, line spacing is not adjustable. I've flown one and it has a nice feel to it but I prefer the small cable handles that Kaz Minato sells. I change the cable to "shark leader" which is very flexible an lays out flat in the Kaz handle. BTW you can use the shark leader in any cable handle and get improved feel.

Best,      DennisT

[Dick Pacini]

This is the handle I currently use.  It weighs 3.1 ounces and includes several different attachment links.

http://brodak.com/handles/reyco-control-line-hardpoint-handle.html

[Dale Hymanyk]

This is the handle I currently use.  It weighs 3.1 ounces and includes several different attachment links.

http://brodak.com/handles/reyco-control-line-hardpoint-handle.html

That's the one I use too. It seems to work well. Add a line clip bender from leemachineshop.com and you should be good to go. 

[Dick Pacini]

It comes with extra links attached to the bar.

[Tim Wescott]

The carbon core is 3/32" woven laminate I bought from "Dragon Plate". I cut it with a dremel dangerous disk,  and finish sanded it.
 
The holes are lined with brass inserts for wear. If you just drill and install clip without brass insert, the carbon will wear very fast.

The carbon has a balsa grip, finished with epoxy and then wrapped with a tennis racket grip strap.

Might take all of an hour to make!

Is that 18 grams with or without the tennis grip wrap?

If I'm getting my math right, just the CF plate should weigh in at close to the total -- but that is assuming my 4.25" monster-sized grip.

[John Stiles]

In a big box of stuff I got with an engine from an estate sale was this handle.  It's a little heavy for me but very well made and quite adjustable.  Don't know if it was from our garage hobby industry or a one-off from the former owner.  Can anyone I.D. it?

Dave

Ohhhhh...yeah! I like that! Wanna do some tradin?

[Dave_Trible]

Ohhhhh...yeah! I like that! Wanna do some tradin?

John PM me your address.  It will be at your door in a few days.

Dave

Soon as figure out where I put it.

[John Stiles]

John PM me your address.  It will be at your door in a few days.

Dave

Soon as figure out where I put it.

What a guy! PM sent!