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Author Topic: Good times bad times.  (Read 11838 times)

Offline Chris Fretz

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Good times bad times.
« on: September 04, 2016, 05:36:06 PM »
Well I have a few issues to to share fellas. I flew the Nobler an Oriental finally yesterday an today.  The Nobler I'm having engine problems. New LA 46 with muffler pressure and the same needle valve/venturi I have on all my other LA 46's. I was having some vibration issues. I tried a different prop an rebalancing the 12-4 Zinger but still vibrating. Quit yesterday when the muffler was falling off. Today I tightened up the muffler an engine mounts.  I took off the PMI pro spin spinner an it seems to run better. Guess you have to balance the spinner to but not sure how to accomplish that. But anyway got some good stunts in but the engine starts slowing down half way through, it also is making a funny noise almost like a miss or spit the whole time. Not sure what to try, how do they act when overheating with a cowl? I've never had a fully cowled airplane, if I did they were junky airplanes an I took the cowl of for easy use.

The Oriental today was running great an I really didn't do to much to it. It has a older well used LA 46. I was surprised it ran so good with the nose busted of an repaired  (freebie topic) but anyway I was messing around and a poor decision ended in disaster. Pretty bummed after that cause it was my best flying airplane to date.






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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2016, 05:40:23 PM »
Sigh...
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2016, 06:19:54 PM »
Nobler was too lean.

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 06:41:25 PM »

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 06:50:22 PM »
Sorry about your crash.  I have learned that just "messing around" can get you in trouble.  If you plan your maneuver a lap or two ahead things go much smoother.  Just tearing up the sky has let the ground get in the way for me.  I also have learned that when I start feeling cocky about how well I'm doing it is a good idea to roll up the lines for the day. It saves on airplanes for me. 
Russell Shaffer
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 07:13:51 PM »
I was ruining it at 9600rpm. I took the motor of and it seems like the plastic backplate was lose. I took it off an put a aluminum backplate on. I'll give that a try tomorrow. If I get the same result I'll richen it up an try that.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2016, 07:15:54 PM »
Sorry about your crash.  I have learned that just "messing around" can get you in trouble.  If you plan your maneuver a lap or two ahead things go much smoother.  Just tearing up the sky has let the ground get in the way for me.  I also have learned that when I start feeling cocky about how well I'm doing it is a good idea to roll up the lines for the day. It saves on airplanes for me. 

I was trying out some of the full pattern stunts, made a mess of the triangle.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2016, 09:57:32 PM »
Sorry about your Oriental.

It seemed to me like both airplanes were very noisy. What sort of mufflers?

Most ARF's have rather soft engine mounts. If you can spread the load with a larger slab of aluminum under the lugs and similar on the other side, with elastic lock nuts, that could help a lot.

Cheap spinners made in China are generally a bad bargain, some machined from castings and prone to split and do bad stuff like that. Try a Tru-Turn, Dave Brown, Brodak or Randy Aero spinner. Worth the money, each & every one of them. 

I hate Zinger propellers, but since they're OOB, then most anything else will be better. Try a Xoar 12-4 or APC 11.5 x 4 or 12-4. Don't worry about the weight of the prop too much.

Mufflers...I'm not a fan of "tongue mufflers". The stock OS mufflers work really well, but yes, they're heavy. Randy Aero (aka Randy Smith) sells excellent CNC Tube Mufflers. If you have trouble with vibrations and stuff is shaking loose, disconnect the muffler pressure until you get the vibration under control. Adding a bit to tailweight to adjust the CG is not a big deal. A quieter engine seems slower to the pilot (you) and you will find it more relaxing and easier to think while doing the tricks as you learn the newer ones. Good things! 

Your basic flying skills look to be pretty good. Are you flying Beginner or Intermediate? Since you can fly inverted, I'll encourage entering Intermediate, even if you can't do all the tricks. Work on the rest of the tricks one at a time. Being able to do them is more a matter of airplane trim...and "dry flying". My wife was giving me flak for doing that just today, while I was watching the Sprint Cup race. Or maybe it was the Camping World truck race? Anyway, that's the way it will always be. <sigh> 

Remember that the triangles are supposed to have equal sides and angles. Mathematically not possible, but that's the general idea as presented in the rulebook. Make everything big now, smaller later. Easier said than done...  LL~ Steve   
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2016, 10:25:53 PM »
WHOOPSIE . >:(

Write ' I must LOOK where I am GOING ' 100 times !

Is the WING o.k. ?
out with the superglue !

Everybody should have a Oriental Wing rib TEMPLATE . Cut one from ply . lexan or tin .Flip over & trace , file to get dead symetrical .
Then you can whip up a set of ribs in 20 minutes , and building ones a breeze .

looks like the undercarrage took the impact .  S?P H^^

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 07:41:56 AM »
As noted, the Nobler ARF has bad motor mounts.  They are not maple, but sorta look like maybe oak, but aren't that either.  Being made in China, I wouldn't be surprised if they were cutting up old pallets to make motor mounts.  I broke one (motor mount, not a pallet) when my Brodak 40 kicked back when I was starting it.  Cut them off and installed an RC mount with reinforcement to the nose.  If it is a Pro-Zinger 12-4 you should be okay.

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 08:28:10 AM »
Sorry about your Oriental.

It seemed to me like both airplanes were very noisy. What sort of mufflers?

Most ARF's have rather soft engine mounts. If you can spread the load with a larger slab of aluminum under the lugs and similar on the other side, with elastic lock nuts, that could help a lot.

Cheap spinners made in China are generally a bad bargain, some machined from castings and prone to split and do bad stuff like that. Try a Tru-Turn, Dave Brown, Brodak or Randy Aero spinner. Worth the money, each & every one of them. 

I hate Zinger propellers, but since they're OOB, then most anything else will be better. Try a Xoar 12-4 or APC 11.5 x 4 or 12-4. Don't worry about the weight of the prop too much.

Mufflers...I'm not a fan of "tongue mufflers". The stock OS mufflers work really well, but yes, they're heavy. Randy Aero (aka Randy Smith) sells excellent CNC Tube Mufflers. If you have trouble with vibrations and stuff is shaking loose, disconnect the muffler pressure until you get the vibration under control. Adding a bit to tailweight to adjust the CG is not a big deal. A quieter engine seems slower to the pilot (you) and you will find it more relaxing and easier to think while doing the tricks as you learn the newer ones. Good things! 

Your basic flying skills look to be pretty good. Are you flying Beginner or Intermediate? Since you can fly inverted, I'll encourage entering Intermediate, even if you can't do all the tricks. Work on the rest of the tricks one at a time. Being able to do them is more a matter of airplane trim...and "dry flying". My wife was giving me flak for doing that just today, while I was watching the Sprint Cup race. Or maybe it was the Camping World truck race? Anyway, that's the way it will always be. <sigh> 

Remember that the triangles are supposed to have equal sides and angles. Mathematically not possible, but that's the general idea as presented in the rulebook. Make everything big now, smaller later. Easier said than done...  LL~ Steve   
The Nobler has the E-3030 the Oriental had a Big Art tongue muffler.

Is there a spinner that will fit a APC 11.5x4?

I flew beginner at Brodaks this year. Figured I'd give the other stunts some practice.

WHOOPSIE . >:(

Write ' I must LOOK where I am GOING ' 100 times !

Is the WING o.k. ?
out with the superglue !

Everybody should have a Oriental Wing rib TEMPLATE . Cut one from ply . lexan or tin .Flip over & trace , file to get dead symetrical .
Then you can whip up a set of ribs in 20 minutes , and building ones a breeze .

looks like the undercarrage took the impact .  S?P H^^

Wings is broke on the inboard side. Engine mounts broke off. I'll probably attempt to fix it an see what happens.
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 09:37:28 AM »
I don't know of any spinner that will fit APC props.  The APC hub is so big that I had to cut away quite a bit of the spinner to fit.  So, I don't use APCs anymore.  Also, they are heavy, which might be good if you need the nose weight.

If you are lucky and can find them, the Thunder Tiger Cyclone 11 X 4.5 is a very good prop.  If you want to stay with wood props, the BY & O from Brodak are also very good.  As wood props go, they are a bit more expensive but they work without having to do anything to them.  I tried Pro Zingers but did not see that they were any better than the regular type.  As mentioned, Zingers are out of business but if you find some leftovers they can be re-worked and made to give reasonably good performance.  I have little experience with Xoar props.  One was loaned to me and it was no better than a Zinger.  Maybe it was a rare bad one?

Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2016, 11:03:35 AM »
Another piece of free advice here - when learning a new trick don't even think about 5 foot bottoms.  Go for at least 10 feet to give yourself a cushion.  Once you can fly at 10 feet reliably it is time to start working down.  Even in a contest, flying too high beats crashing.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 11:13:38 AM »
The Oriental looks repairable -- generally if there's a few big pieces I at least consider fixing rather than trashing.

I was going to suggest swapping the Oriental motor into the Nobler, until I got to the part about the loose backplate.  That would certainly account for the poor run.  I've got several LA engines with the original plastic backplate that are doing fine, so I don't think you need to automatically swap them -- but if I tightened one up I would make sure to follow recommendations here -- torque them barely past snug, and make sure to use thread locker.  There's a motorcycle gasket goo that my flying buddy recommends, but I can't remember the details.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2016, 11:23:10 AM »
Do you have the openings larger for the air out let then the inlet?   The engine will get hot if the air can't get out.   I had to cut bigger outlets on my Thunderbolt British design.  As far as back plates,  I don't use gaskets on the stock engines.   A very thin layer of gasket goo does the job and don't over tighten.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2016, 11:42:15 AM »
Just from my own experience with the OS .40-.46 I'd suggest you are trying to use too big a prop.  That's overloading and heating the engine up.  I always had best luck with the APC 11-4 on said engines running in the 9600-9800 rpm range.  For the small Nobler-size/weight airplane I'd drop to 10" diameter and let the engine run very cool.  Big props also can create aggravated flight trim problems.  So be it if you need to trim out a spinner.  If you want to run wood I'd look for RevUps or older Top Flite round tip props.  You could get lucky on the bay for a few of these.


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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2016, 12:51:48 PM »
I don't know of any spinner that will fit APC props.  The APC hub is so big that I had to cut away quite a bit of the spinner to fit.  So, I don't use APCs anymore.  Also, they are heavy, which might be good if you need the nose weight.


I really hate to see this logic, APC props are the best bet out there for reliable, repeateble affordable props. unless you are using less than a 1 3/4" spinner there is no issue fitting almost any spinner on the market to them. It is absolutly normal to need to open up the blade openings in the spinner to fit the prop you are using. APC are a little bit heavier than other options, such as some of the wood props, but the abosolute reliability is what trumps in this case
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2016, 05:02:31 PM »
The Nobler has the E-3030 the Oriental had a Big Art tongue muffler.

Is there a spinner that will fit a APC 11.5x4?

I flew beginner at Brodaks this year. Figured I'd give the other stunts some practice.

Wings is broke on the inboard side. Engine mounts broke off. I'll probably attempt to fix it an see what happens.

    I am sorry to see you crashed, but it's an inevitable part of the learning process. As long as the wing can be repaired, you can build another Oriental fuselage in a few hours if it comes to that. That's one of the beauties of the design, it really does fly just like a Nobler, but it's about a million times easier to build. I would not recommend anything that attempts to repair the existing motor mounts by splicing them back together. At the very least, you have to replace the entire length of the mount rails. If it was me, I would build and graft on another nose before attempting to put new mount rails in the existing nose.

    You are doing fine. If you don't crash them now and then, you aren't trying hard enough!

     Brett
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 05:26:38 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2016, 05:13:55 PM »
The Oriental looks repairable -- generally if there's a few big pieces I at least consider fixing rather than trashing.

Ive never cut engine mounts out that have been glued with epoxy, with sigment I have with success. Cut them out an replace or just go rc style mounts?
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2016, 05:17:58 PM »
Ok guys this is after the backplate was changed to a aluminum one an tight.  Has a 12-4 APC.

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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2016, 05:20:46 PM »
    I am sorry to see you crashed, but it's an inevitable part of the learning process. As long as the wing can be repaired, you can build another Oriental fuselage in a few hours if it comes to that. That's one of the beauties of the design, it really does fly just like a Nobler, but it's about a million times easier to build. I would not recommend anything that attempts to repair the existing motor mounts by splicing them back together. At the very least, you have to replace the entire length of the mount rails. If it was me, I would build and graft on another nose before attempting to put new mount rails in the existing nose.

    You are doing fine. If you don't crash them now and then, you aren't trying hard enough!

     Brett

     Brett
Hi Brett, thanks for the encouragement!
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2016, 05:28:04 PM »
Hey Chris!
Cut the mounts off flush and go rc style engine mount. The mount can contribute to a lean run in the air. You set the needle at 9600 on the ground,  but vibration can cause bad fuel flow and let it go lean.

On the spinner,  call tru-turn. They might have one in stock. Otherwise, they'll cut you one to fit. That's what I did on my noble-arf.

Offline Carl Cisneros

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2016, 05:32:06 PM »
great flight Chris

swap the Square Loop and Figure eight. 

The motor sounds spot on now.

Now, get to work on the Oriental buddy.

Carl
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2016, 05:33:03 PM »
Ive never cut engine mounts out that have been glued with epoxy, with sigment I have with success. Cut them out an replace or just go rc style mounts?

    I think you will find it very difficult to cut them out without destroying everything else. I would look at the original plans and build it as shown there, rather than try to replicate the cosntruction of the ARF. The break at the TE will be easy enough to fix, but all things considered, if it was me, I would just build a new fuselage. On the oriental, its just a square box with a top block. That way you can also build the mount with some support for the engine bearers instead of the cantilevered through the firewall like a tuning fork. It will work OK with the LA as supplied but you don't want to run it with a Fox that way. It may be an element in engine inconsistency.

     Brett

Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2016, 06:06:13 PM »
great flight Chris

swap the Square Loop and Figure eight. 

The motor sounds spot on now.

Now, get to work on the Oriental buddy.

Carl

Ha ha it's been so long since I've flown I apparently forgot the order!  Thanks for pointing that out Carl!
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Offline Russell Shaffer

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2016, 06:16:34 PM »
One of the oscillating multi-tools will make short work of cutting out the old mount no matter what you finally do with the engine mount situation.  These tools work well for many things.  This is a Harbor Freight tool but you can spend as much as you want on name brand stuff.   
http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/oscillating-tools/oscillating-multi-tool-62279.html   
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2016, 06:35:13 PM »
   I think you will find it very difficult to cut them out without destroying everything else. I would look at the original plans and build it as shown there, rather than try to replicate the cosntruction of the ARF. The break at the TE will be easy enough to fix, but all things considered, if it was me, I would just build a new fuselage. On the oriental, its just a square box with a top block. That way you can also build the mount with some support for the engine bearers instead of the cantilevered through the firewall like a tuning fork. It will work OK with the LA as supplied but you don't want to run it with a Fox that way. It may be an element in engine inconsistency.

     Brett
I don't really have the skill to scratch build a new fuselage, I'm kind of stuck with my broken one. Unless you want to fly to the east coast an show me ;D
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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2016, 07:02:05 PM »
I really hate to see this logic, APC props are the best bet out there for reliable, repeateble affordable props. unless you are using less than a 1 3/4" spinner there is no issue fitting almost any spinner on the market to them. It is absolutly normal to need to open up the blade openings in the spinner to fit the prop you are using. APC are a little bit heavier than other options, such as some of the wood props, but the abosolute reliability is what trumps in this case

Yes, it is sometimes necessary to open up the spinner to fit other props.  I thought the APC performed well but when I found out about the Thunder Tiger Cyclone I never looked at APC again.  The Thunder Tiger worked so well on the LA 46.  And, I never had to cut so much off (most times, nothing at all) a spinner to get the Thunder Tiger to fit.  I heard the Thunder Tiger prop has been discontinued, but then I hear some are available, then discontinued again.  Anyone know for sure?  Maybe I have to go back to APC if I use up my supply of Thunder Tiger props.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2016, 08:03:36 PM »
On the video I timed your laps at 4.6 seconds.  That is a good deal faster than you need to fly a Nobler with aLA46 in it.

To qualify that I don't know what length lines you are on but would guess they are a little shorter than would be most comfortable.  Also I have had many airplanes (some a lot bigger than a Nobler) with LA46's installed and I believe you are running yours significantly harder than needed.  It may of course just be the sound on the video that is misleading but overall I think it would be easier for you to practice and lear more if the airplane was slowed down a bit or simply given a little more room with longer lines.  4.6 to 4.8 second laps is typical for a Nobler on 60 ft lines handle to center of airplane with a Fox 35.  However with the tremendous extra power of the 46 you could make things significantly easier, especially while learning, with longer lines.  The 11.5-4 APC prop at about 9600 RPM will make things easier on 63-64 ft lines center to center!  Lap times should then be in the 5.2 second range and maneuvers are a little more easy to see and control.
The ground comes up a little slower also!

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Offline frank mccune

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2016, 06:36:01 AM »
    Hi:

    Do not feel ruptured as I did the same thing with a Mustant II the other day. I did not engage brain during maneuver.  Not a lot of damage but it was a careless moment!

    It looks like you are doing well with the maneuvers.  May I suggest that you richen the engines a bit.

    Are you flying off of a baseball infield?  If so, very bad for the engines!

                                                                                                                                    "Here we go Steelers"

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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2016, 06:47:09 AM »
There seems to be a high correlation between Go-Pro videos and things crashing.
I never do videos of my flying and seldom crash.

That goes double for skiing and car driving.
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2016, 07:11:08 AM »
I agree Paul!  What's the point of making a video if you don't crash?  S?P

I am embarrassed to admit that I have not videoed any of my Super-Ringmaster saber-dancing flights which almost always end in a crash of some sort.  It's almost like I'm holding out on you guys.  Sorry!  ;D

Offline Carl Cisneros

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2016, 07:36:00 AM »
Scott;

No videos, huh?   We will see about that   S?P S?P

Carl
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2016, 07:36:50 AM »
On the video I timed your laps at 4.6 seconds.  That is a good deal faster than you need to fly a Nobler with aLA46 in it.

To qualify that I don't know what length lines you are on but would guess they are a little shorter than would be most comfortable.  Also I have had many airplanes (some a lot bigger than a Nobler) with LA46's installed and I believe you are running yours significantly harder than needed.  It may of course just be the sound on the video that is misleading but overall I think it would be easier for you to practice and lear more if the airplane was slowed down a bit or simply given a little more room with longer lines.  4.6 to 4.8 second laps is typical for a Nobler on 60 ft lines handle to center of airplane with a Fox 35.  However with the tremendous extra power of the 46 you could make things significantly easier, especially while learning, with longer lines.  The 11.5-4 APC prop at about 9600 RPM will make things easier on 63-64 ft lines center to center!  Lap times should then be in the 5.2 second range and maneuvers are a little more easy to see and control.
The ground comes up a little slower also!

Randy Cuberly
You are right they are 61ft lines.  I've been wanting to get a set of 63ft but I haven't yet, wish I would of just grabbed then at Brodaks Fly in.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2016, 07:41:37 AM »
I agree Paul!  What's the point of making a video if you don't crash?  S?P

I am embarrassed to admit that I have not videoed any of my Super-Ringmaster saber-dancing flights which almost always end in a crash of some sort.  It's almost like I'm holding out on you guys.  Sorry!  ;D
There seems to be a high correlation between Go-Pro videos and things crashing.
I never do videos of my flying and seldom crash.

That goes double for skiing and car driving.

Go-Pro! Geez guys I'm not rich, I can't afford one of those fancy things.  I'm using a Mobius, it's nice to go back an watch all the screw ups.

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2016, 02:51:31 PM »
The most recent (never say "last"!) Nobler flight video showed quite good pilot skillz. The upright level flight was lower than the inverted, which can be either pilot's choice....or a handle adjustment away from a good "neutral". Pretty sure there weren't enough level laps inverted (6), yet you ran out of fuel pretty quickly, and I didn't see a V8...but also not sure the V8 is in the Beginner Pattern. Or maybe I just forgot? 

One day I flew a few flights on my Humongus/OS .46 LA with a Big Art tube muffler and a 12-5 APC. I rather liked it, but it was a mite slow for the OTS model. At the time, I thought it might work very well on a Classic or PA plane. My theory was that the lack of the boost port in the .46 made them into essentially an SSW .35FP or .40FP, but with more cubes, so I gave it a try. Leonard Neuman recommends a 12 x 5.5 prop on his SSW .35 & .40FP's, so the 12x5 APC was in the ballpark. Now, I would also try an RSM 11 x 6 or 12 x 5.5, just for S&G's. I admit to being a nut for trying different propellers, but there is a LOT of performance to be gained or lost there. Others will suggest 10" props, but I'm always looking for more line tension in the OH8 and Clover, and the smaller diameter generally doesn't help there.  y1 Steve
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2016, 03:54:45 PM »
I've found that a 12 inch prop on a Nobler does a pretty good job of "Killing" the corner!  Too much precession in my opinion!

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2016, 02:16:23 PM »
I am loving the APC 12.25 x 3.75 on my LA 46. Like a freight train!  #^ YMMV
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2016, 04:35:32 PM »
I am loving the APC 12.25 x 3.75 on my LA 46. Like a freight train!  #^ YMMV

    Right, but note Randy's comment, it might pull like a freight train, and turn corners like a freight train, too. You don't have a lot of tail volume available to horse that much prop around a corner, and Noblers are not noted for their tight cornering to start with.

    Brett

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2016, 11:37:21 PM »
    Right, but note Randy's comment, it might pull like a freight train, and turn corners like a freight train, too. You don't have a lot of tail volume available to horse that much prop around a corner, and Noblers are not noted for their tight cornering to start with.

    Brett

Yes, and I will also bet (from stupid experience) that if you get the CG back far enough to get some real corners, you will find out just how free your controls are and how steady your hand is and when you snap those corners with that much precession you'll wish you had a Rabe Rudder.  It definitely won't pull like a freight train anymore however!  Have good tennis shoes on!   LL~ LL~
Unfortunately in a control line stunter everything plays against everything else.  With a Nobler you quickly learn that it is a fairly good flying airplane and also why Experts aren't flying them in competition anymore against "New Numbered airplanes".  Got to know the limitations!!
Hmmmm... who said that?
Bottom line is you will fly a Nobler best with a light engine like a Aerotiger and a 10 or 10.5 inch prop!

But then what do I know I've only had 9 of them since 1960!  The last one (about 10 years ago) was with an Aerotiger and a 10.5-4.25 bolly prop!  Now that actually turned a respectable corner without having it chase you!  It was also a bit of a cheater with a larger stab and elevator and slightly smaller flaps.  Hmmmmm... there's a lesson in there somewhere.  Of course I said it was a cheater!  So maybe it wasn't really a "Nobler" anymore!

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2016, 05:44:50 PM »
I am loving the APC 12.25 x 3.75 on my LA 46. Like a freight train!  #^ YMMV
I tried that prop on the Nobler this weekend.  Pulled like crazy but was way to fast an hard to stunt.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2016, 08:24:34 AM »
Hey Chris!
Cut the mounts off flush and go rc style engine mount. The mount can contribute to a lean run in the air. You set the needle at 9600 on the ground,  but vibration can cause bad fuel flow and let it go lean.

On the spinner,  call tru-turn. They might have one in stock. Otherwise, they'll cut you one to fit. That's what I did on my noble-arf.
Hi, Dane. I got the wing glued back together an the body is close, might be a smidge crooked. I think I'll go R/C mount. Were you saying R/C mount could cause vibration?
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2016, 06:44:26 PM »
Well I ended up cutting out the old engine mounts. Surprisingly they came out pretty easy. I can never find very hard engine mounts at the hobby shop, the wood always seems soft to me. Where do you get good hardwood mounts? I guess I should replace the front bulkhead, or can I just double it up with another piece of plywood?
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2016, 08:05:07 PM »
Good hardwood engine mounts from right here on Stunt Hanger Hobby which I believe is Tom Morris also. H^^
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2016, 09:22:51 PM »
Gives you clear access in the nose , if you whack the former out - to put in a new one .

I used a Rasp & a File to knock back glue seams/ welts , in the Genisis & give it a dose of acetone or two on a rag/ tissue
to pull out the fuel soak .

Good to see you didnt let it beat you .

Sitting the wing on a few bits of 2x4 on the bench if rejoining keeps the alignment true . One at spar - one at trailing edge
square to spars , whie the glue kicks off .

 H^^

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2016, 03:42:40 AM »
One of the oscillating multi-tools will make short work of cutting out the old mount no matter what you finally do with the engine mount situation.  These tools work well for many things.  This is a Harbor Freight tool but you can spend as much as you want on name brand stuff.   
http://www.harborfreight.com/power-tools/oscillating-tools/oscillating-multi-tool-62279.html   
Thanks for reminding me I had one of these on a shelf I've never used.  It did work like a charm.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2016, 03:46:59 AM »
Good hardwood engine mounts from right here on Stunt Hanger Hobby which I believe is Tom Morris also. H^^
I bought a couple from Tom when I was at the Fly-in, thought I used them all but I found enough to do it. Wish the hobby shops sold good ones.

Gives you clear access in the nose , if you whack the former out - to put in a new one .

I used a Rasp & a File to knock back glue seams/ welts , in the Genisis & give it a dose of acetone or two on a rag/ tissue
to pull out the fuel soak .

Good to see you didnt let it beat you .

Sitting the wing on a few bits of 2x4 on the bench if rejoining keeps the alignment true . One at spar - one at trailing edge
square to spars , whie the glue kicks off .

 H^^
So far it hasn't beat me, hopping to fly it again before the season is over!
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2016, 07:09:07 PM »
I got engine mounts again!
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2016, 07:17:26 PM »
I got engine mounts again!

Way to get that done.
Good luck on future flights.
Took me a while to learn "End of Flight Discipline" and just fly it out after the pattern. Been doing a lot less gluing after learning that!
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2016, 07:52:44 PM »
Way to get that done.
Good luck on future flights.
Took me a while to learn "End of Flight Discipline" and just fly it out after the pattern. Been doing a lot less gluing after learning that!
Shug
How did you learn the added stunts after doing the beginner pattern? Guess I should just try the stunts in order instead of giving some of them a try after flying the beginning pattern...
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2016, 08:01:50 PM »
Way to get that done.
Good luck on future flights.
Took me a while to learn "End of Flight Discipline" and just fly it out after the pattern. Been doing a lot less gluing after learning that!
Shug
I was thinking about telling Chris, he reminds me of Me when I was flying Beginner. Except he flies better shapes. But I just could not resist the tempation do do some extra whifferdills, as my coach unpleasantly referred to them. And I paid for it, painfully a few times. That might have been some of the residual 1/2A habits I struggled to overcome...back when loops for me were more appropriately like "Yank-and-Hope" than flying. I think everyone does it though, it's how we're wired as fun loving goofballs, and why we fly C/L in the first place.

I'd be proud of that job of rebuilding the front end, Good work Chris. I went with the RC mount and immediately had fp.40 runaway problems from the same engine that had always been well behaved before. My Oriental survived a couple of crashes and still flew very well, even as the weight grew. Last time I flew and finally demolished it, she was up to 55.5 ounces

Btw, when I had a bathroom remodeled, I was told that generally speaking, most of the old drawers in those vanities were made with hard maple for the sides and back. So I saved a few planks for bearer and crutch stock.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2016, 08:25:04 PM »
How did you learn the added stunts after doing the beginner pattern? Guess I should just try the stunts in order instead of giving some of them a try after flying the beginning pattern...
One way is to add enough fuel for some PRE-planned stunts you want to fly after the pattern, so it cuts off 7 or 10 laps after your pre-planned addons are completed.

However when I went up to the full pattern, I just dry-flew it at home a bunch of times. At the field, I would put enough fuel in it for a full pattern, and possibly, during flight, leave out any stunts that worried me. Sometmes those would be the outside squares or hourglass.

In my opinion, your next mission is to get your engine runs, lap times, and fuel load set right and repeatable every time. Until that is accomplished, don't fly full patterns. For fueling, you can never be sure there isn't some left in the tank. So always fill it to overflow, and pull out a certain amount until you find it. Then use that method for every flight from now on.

But remember, the first flight on a different day will be somewhat unpredictable. If colder, expect it to run dry sooner, and visa versa. It's the same at different locations too. Altitude and barometric pressure especially affect it. You need at least one practice flight before a contest for that reason. I like to have about 7 laps after the clover. My LA46 was so dependable, I was flying only 2 laps after, but looking back, that was kinda dumb.
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2016, 06:31:48 AM »
I was thinking about telling Chris, he reminds me of Me when I was flying Beginner. Except he flies better shapes. But I just could not resist the tempation do do some extra whifferdills, as my coach unpleasantly referred to them. And I paid for it, painfully a few times. That might have been some of the residual 1/2A habits I struggled to overcome...back when loops for me were more appropriately like "Yank-and-Hope" than flying. I think everyone does it though, it's how we're wired as fun loving goofballs, and why we fly C/L in the first place.

I'd be proud of that job of rebuilding the front end, Good work Chris. I went with the RC mount and immediately had fp.40 runaway problems from the same engine that had always been well behaved before. My Oriental survived a couple of crashes and still flew very well, even as the weight grew. Last time I flew and finally demolished it, she was up to 55.5 ounces

Btw, when I had a bathroom remodeled, I was told that generally speaking, most of the old drawers in those vanities were made with hard maple for the sides and back. So I saved a few planks for bearer and crutch stock.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty, I wish I could build them as nice as you do!
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2016, 11:26:12 AM »
Thanks Rusty, I wish I could build them as nice as you do!
Don't sell yourself short, Chris. Watching your Oriental repairs and Nobler mods shows you have good building sense. And the shapes you fly in the Beginner pattern are better than the ones I graduated to Intermediate with. I had a coach who is a PA judge and a good Intermediate pilot, and loves trimming more than any other aspect of the hobby. That helps the learning curve a lot.

In my paragraph about your next mission, I didn't mention flight trimming the airframe, and you really need someone to watch your plane from the outside to see some of the necessary adjustments. I know you have a pit man, hopefully he can identify hinging, flap irregularities, etc. so your plane won't be fighting you.

Good luck, plan your flights, fuel accordingly, and stop those whifferdills! Lol
Rusty
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2016, 04:39:29 PM »
Hi Liner, I see that your address is Pittsburgh, PA great town, great Football team! You are close to Carmichaels, PA take a run down there to Brodak's Store after you've accumulated a list to make the trip worth the time and gas! You'll be able to get what ever you want!

As to the LA .46 how much time is on it? You may benefit from running it in a bit more. I've found that their runs improve with an hour of cycling and run slightly on the rich side. If you have a test stand run it on there some and pinch the fuel line to rev it up from time to time slightly rich to slightly lean. How much total oil is in your fuel? My experience is that 22% total oil equally split between castor and synthetic is just about right. 5 to 10% Nitro is fine. I've had nice results with my LA .46's using 7.5% which is a mix of 50 50 5 and 10% Nitro blends. If your engine is running on LHS RC fuel ...ditch it and get some of Brodak's 10 or 5 11:11 blend. Its got an honest amount of oil in the mix and will not over heat your engine.

Finally read what Randy Smith has to say in the engine portion of this forum about getting great Stunt Runs. He'll also answer your questions as well!

You may want to invest in a spool of .015 bradded steel cable to measure and cut your own lines John Brodak, as well as sponsors on this Forum, can help you out on this as well! you'll also need eyelets and hair wire to wrap your ends. I prefer not to use crimps!

Phil Spillman
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #55 on: September 16, 2016, 03:50:52 AM »
Don't sell yourself short, Chris. Watching your Oriental repairs and Nobler mods shows you have good building sense. And the shapes you fly in the Beginner pattern are better than the ones I graduated to Intermediate with. I had a coach who is a PA judge and a good Intermediate pilot, and loves trimming more than any other aspect of the hobby. That helps the learning curve a lot.

In my paragraph about your next mission, I didn't mention flight trimming the airframe, and you really need someone to watch your plane from the outside to see some of the necessary adjustments. I know you have a pit man, hopefully he can identify hinging, flap irregularities, etc. so your plane won't be fighting you.

Good luck, plan your flights, fuel accordingly, and stop those whifferdills! Lol
Rusty
I can fix them I just can't make them look perfect like that Yak9 you did or that pretty sweet Twister! Most of the the time my pit man is my stooge  ;D sometimes fly with my dad but he is still making stalling loops an lazy eights. He could tell if it is flying level but as for the rest of trimming that is kinda beyond us!
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #56 on: September 16, 2016, 03:57:15 AM »
Hi Liner, I see that your address is Pittsburgh, PA great town, great Football team! You are close to Carmichaels, PA take a run down there to Brodak's Store after you've accumulated a list to make the trip worth the time and gas! You'll be able to get what ever you want!

As to the LA .46 how much time is on it? You may benefit from running it in a bit more. I've found that their runs improve with an hour of cycling and run slightly on the rich side. If you have a test stand run it on there some and pinch the fuel line to rev it up from time to time slightly rich to slightly lean. How much total oil is in your fuel? My experience is that 22% total oil equally split between castor and synthetic is just about right. 5 to 10% Nitro is fine. I've had nice results with my LA .46's using 7.5% which is a mix of 50 50 5 and 10% Nitro blends. If your engine is running on LHS RC fuel ...ditch it and get some of Brodak's 10 or 5 11:11 blend. Its got an honest amount of oil in the mix and will not over heat your engine.

Finally read what Randy Smith has to say in the engine portion of this forum about getting great Stunt Runs. He'll also answer your questions as well!

You may want to invest in a spool of .015 bradded steel cable to measure and cut your own lines John Brodak, as well as sponsors on this Forum, can help you out on this as well! you'll also need eyelets and hair wire to wrap your ends. I prefer not to use crimps!

Phil Spillman
Ive been to Brodaks quite a lot lately, just wish the local hobby shops had the simple things when you want it right now kind of thing.

The LA in the Nobler is new. LA in the Oriental seems to be well used. I've been running Omega 10% with a cup of castor added into a gallon.  They do seem to run better with some time on them. I had a LA 40 that took some time before I was happy with it in my Twister.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2016, 07:18:13 PM »
Battered and bruised but Oriental is back together!  #^ I can't wait to give it a try again. I hope it flys as good as it did before.




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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2016, 02:36:48 PM »
Don't be surprised if it doesn't fly better.  Looks good.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2016, 08:39:09 PM »
Don't be surprised if it doesn't fly better.  Looks good.
Thanks Doc! Sadly to say I went out to try it tonight but when I went to unwind my lines they were twisted together so bad I couldn't even get them untwisted myself, plus they had about 4 kinks in them that I saw.  I don't know what happened there, I didn't wind them up last. Maybe this is a reason to not use the 19strand wire I don't know. Anyway I didn't get to try it, only other set of longer lines I have are .018 thick unlike the .015 I was using. Might try those another day since I didn't have them with me.

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2016, 11:18:56 PM »
I'm convinced 100%, 7 strand is best. Sounds like somebody didn't reel them onto the spool, rather wrapped them. That's a mess.
.018s are pretty darned heavy, better add some tip weight... or better yet, get some more .015" Your local fishing outfiter may have them for stainless steel leader wire.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2016, 05:24:40 PM »
I'm convinced 100%, 7 strand is best. Sounds like somebody didn't reel them onto the spool, rather wrapped them. That's a mess.
.018s are pretty darned heavy, better add some tip weight... or better yet, get some more .015" Your local fishing outfiter may have them for stainless steel leader wire.
I have been trying to get a hold of Tom Morris for a couple days to get new lines but no luck so far.  I'll try the 7 strand if he has it an I can get a hold off him.
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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2016, 09:54:45 AM »
You haven't noticed that Tom finally made it to a Tulsa contest this past weekend.  He should be home soon. VD~    Haven't had my coffee yet. D>K
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Offline Chris Fretz

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2016, 10:08:32 AM »
You haven't noticed that Tom finally made it to a Tulsa contest this past weekend.  He should be home soon. VD~    Haven't had my coffee yet. D>K
He emailed me this morning saying he was away an back now.  I am usually in the dark about stuff n~ I'm guessing it has been on here about him going to Tulsa?
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2016, 11:16:31 AM »
In the Tulsa contest report there is a picture of the one and only Tom Morse.   H^^
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: Good times bad times.
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2016, 04:00:58 PM »
In the Tulsa contest report there is a picture of the one and only Tom Morse.   H^^
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