Finally-Tanagers

[Chris Fretz]

Well I finally got to fly these 2 Tanagers. Not bad but not great yet. First one to fly was the RoadRunner. The run was not consistent sadly, it would speed up and slow down throught the flight. not sure whats up with that unless the backplate is leaking. But besides that it wasnt running the same upright as upside down. No big surprise to me, I cant for the life of me get a tank adjusted right. Actually very frustrating. I flew this airplane about 6 times, each time moving the tank further down. I finally ran out of travel to adjust it down. It seemed to be getting better but I am really not sure at this point. This tanager has a LA 46 brand new from a hobby shop (control line version), a 4 1/2 Brodak Uniflow BH-551 Tank. I have a chip muffler with no pressure hooked up.

Ok so Tanager 2 the Back to the Future one has a Ebay LA 46 used that I put the venturi and needle in, has the E-3030 muffler. Same tank as the other. Now on to the fun stuff. It had a much more consistent run throughout, except my dreaded right side up and upside down inconsistency. They run slow upside down. I only flew this one twice. 2nd flight i moved the tank down with no real change. This one also hunts a little.

I thought it flew level upright and outboard high upside down, but after seeing the video and pictures I think it is outboard high both ways. With the wing low on the fuse I think thats why I couldnt see the outboard wing high upright. Not 100% though. Had no one with me that could look wile I flew them. Both seem to be the same. I forgot to look if the outboard wheel was peeking out in front.

So my questions are with this tank height crap... If say the engine runs great with the tank on the center line (just hypothetical) what would it do if it was too high or too low? Would it run faster upside down if the tank was too low and run slow upside down if the tank was too high? Am I going the wrong way or did I go past the sweet spot and go too far?

The hunting problem could that be the flaps and elevators misaligned?

[Chris Fretz]

I started the first fin above the glow plug.

[Chris Fretz]

Ooh and following the plans for the landing gear swept back seems to have been a mistake. Every time landing in the grass the nose hits the ground at the end.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[RknRusty]

I didn't hear anything wrong with the Roadrunner's engine run for most of the flight. maybe Motor Man has a better ear than I do. At the end, it took its time shutting off after it leaned out, but finally did. Other than that, I'd take that run any day, it sounds like you had the engine needled nicely for a wet 2 and a small break to a full 2-stroke in the climbs where you want it. Besides. if it's new, you're going to have to be patient with it. Keep flying and it'll finish breaking in. Don't over-think it.

All I would change is to shim the back of the tank out more to stop that prolonged on and off business before finally shutting off. Your flying is good, your bottoms are better than mine.

All of the above assumes the tank is airtight, no leaks under a pressure test, and the internal tubes are secured and not singing like a tuning fork.

Now I'll watch the B2tF movie and post about it.
Rusty

[RknRusty]

Yeah, B2tF wasn't happy. What props are you using? It sounded sometimes like it might be overheating and sagging, but in the flats it mostly sounded like a wet 2. Put another plug in it and see what happens. You are moving the tank in the wrong direction. MM said the same.

Make sure there's no insert in that muffler hindering the cooling and exhaust flow. What is a chip muffler as you mentioned on the RR? I always use pressure.
Rusty

[MikeCoulombe]

Hi Chris
Just thought I might chime in with a little of my own experience with the Tanager.
Built for my daughter in 2004 we originally powered it with a nice mild mannered FP .40.
It managed the beginner pattern well and Liz won some contests with it, it flew much better than her old Tomahawk .19 McCoy.
As time does, things move on and I found the old Tanager sitting unused.
I had a .46la sitting around and thought why not revive the old girl.
Installed a .290 venturi and a Enya Special needle valve S5020. with a 11x4 3blade cf.
Extended the lines out from 55ft to 60ft handle to center.
I found the best lap times to be around 5.45 seconds.
The tank is a brodak 4.5 ounce deep wedge uniflow.
From your videos I see a couple of things, I think your lap times are a little long, your engine runs sound ok so maybe a line length adjustment may help.
Adjust the tank until lap times are identical upright and inverted, once that is achieved then start fiddling with the engine run.
I agree about the gear a little more forward would be good, maybe try larger wheels.
Enjoy the Tanager mine has turned into my fun backup plane/stunt trainer.

[Chris Fretz]

If it runs rich and slower inverted, move the tank higher. If the outboard wing is high upright and inverted use more tip weight. If it's hunting, try adjusting the flaps so when the elevator is level the flaps are a tiny bit down or maybe you need more nose weight.

Just watched the first video. Sounds like you intermittently have dirt in the needle valve.

Go figure I would go the wrong direction with the tank. I'll give all of that a try for the next time.  Thanks!

[Chris Fretz]

I didn't hear anything wrong with the Roadrunner's engine run for most of the flight. maybe Motor Man has a better ear than I do. At the end, it took its time shutting off after it leaned out, but finally did. Other than that, I'd take that run any day, it sounds like you had the engine needled nicely for a wet 2 and a small break to a full 2-stroke in the climbs where you want it. Besides. if it's new, you're going to have to be patient with it. Keep flying and it'll finish breaking in. Don't over-think it.

All I would change is to shim the back of the tank out more to stop that prolonged on and off business before finally shutting off. Your flying is good, your bottoms are better than mine.

All of the above assumes the tank is airtight, no leaks under a pressure test, and the internal tubes are secured and not singing like a tuning fork.

Now I'll watch the B2tF movie and post about it.
Rusty

Hi Rusty! I tried to find a mouse pad but it is just as thin as the blue stuff I put on.  I did run the engine on the bench for an hour or less all together pinching the fuel line. See I need one of you guys with me at the field to knock the stupid out of me and move the tank the right direction 
Chris

[Chris Fretz]

Yeah, B2tF wasn't happy. What props are you using? It sounded sometimes like it might be overheating and sagging, but in the flats it mostly sounded like a wet 2. Put another plug in it and see what happens. You are moving the tank in the wrong direction. MM said the same.

Make sure there's no insert in that muffler hindering the cooling and exhaust flow. What is a chip muffler as you mentioned on the RR? I always use pressure.
Rusty

I'm using 12x4 Xoar prop. Lol I thought this one ran the best!?

Oooops I  ment a tongue muffler, I don't know why I said chip.

[Chris Fretz]

Hi Chris
Just thought I might chime in with a little of my own experience with the Tanager.
Built for my daughter in 2004 we originally powered it with a nice mild mannered FP .40.
It managed the beginner pattern well and Liz won some contests with it, it flew much better than her old Tomahawk .19 McCoy.
As time does, things move on and I found the old Tanager sitting unused.
I had a .46la sitting around and thought why not revive the old girl.
Installed a .290 venturi and a Enya Special needle valve S5020. with a 11x4 3blade cf.
Extended the lines out from 55ft to 60ft handle to center.
I found the best lap times to be around 5.45 seconds.
The tank is a brodak 4.5 ounce deep wedge uniflow.
From your videos I see a couple of things, I think your lap times are a little long, your engine runs sound ok so maybe a line length adjustment may help.
Adjust the tank until lap times are identical upright and inverted, once that is achieved then start fiddling with the engine run.
I agree about the gear a little more forward would be good, maybe try larger wheels.
Enjoy the Tanager mine has turned into my fun backup plane/stunt trainer.

Hi, I was getting lap times of 4.8 and 5.0 when timed. I'm using 63ft. I can't get them in the 5.4 range for some reason all mine go fast in the 4.8, they always feel like lines sag when I slow mine down. Do the 3 blades slow the LA46 down?  Right now I got 3in wheels on them. I thought about bending the gear forward but I'm sure ill bust that trippler.

Chris

[MikeCoulombe]

Lap times I was using the old 1mississippi 2mississippi in my head.
The three blade prop tends to be less efficient than the two blade, allowing the engine to run at a higher RPM where the LA is happier, this should slow down the lap times and running at a higher RPM you won't have the speed winding up in consecutive maneuvers.
My advice is change one thing at a time if that works move on to the next issue.
And above all remember to have a little fun out there.

[RknRusty]

Hi Rusty! I tried to find a mouse pad but it is just as thin as the blue stuff I put on...
Chris

Cut up one of the thin beer koozies. They work great.
Rusty

[Chris Fretz]

Cut up one of the thin beer koozies. They work great.
Rusty

How will I keep my beer cold then? 

[RknRusty]

How will I keep my beer cold then? 

Cut up someone else's Koozie?

[Chris Fretz]

Cut up someone else's Koozie?

yours?

[Carl Cisneros]

Chris;

When is a good time to call you>?

Carl

[Chris Fretz]

Chris;

When is a good time to call you>?

Carl

Check your messages.

[Carl Cisneros]

got it Chris

thanks

[Target]

I'm wondering if the 12 x 4 Xoar isn't a bit much for the .46LA?
My P-40 ARF with the LA.46 likes the 11x5 Xoar, although I can't say I have tried a larger diameter....

Good luck.

The other Chris

[RknRusty]

If you read the sticky about everyone's LA46 setup in the engine forum, the 12x4 is one of the most popular props. It's what I use on mine, the APC 12x4.

[Chris Fretz]

I'm wondering if the 12 x 4 Xoar isn't a bit much for the .46LA?
My P-40 ARF with the LA.46 likes the 11x5 Xoar, although I can't say I have tried a larger diameter....

Good luck.

The other Chris

A lot of people even like the 12.25x3.75 prop on the 46.

Chris

[Target]

I'm running the classic 4-2-4 on my OS LA.46, so that is probably why I like the smaller but higher pitch Xoar.
Just a suggestion.

[RknRusty]

Well, yeah, in that case, you probably would like a different prop than some of us, as I prefer to run it in a wet 2.

[Chris Fretz]

I'm running the classic 4-2-4 on my OS LA.46, so that is probably why I like the smaller but higher pitch Xoar.
Just a suggestion.

What rpm do you launch at with a 11x5?

[Target]

I never tach'd my engines. They are just breaking 4-2 on the ground, then when launched and in level flight run the 4c.

[Steve Helmick]

If you lower the tank, the engine will run richer when inverted. If you raise the tank, the engine will run richer when upright.

Like Rusty wrote, the ugly end of run (on-off-on-off) can be fixed by shimming the back of the tank outward. But it can also be fixed by moving the LO's forward. I'd shim the tank 1/8"-1/4"and then work with the LO's to get them correct later. Leave the tank aft end shimmed out, it won't hurt a thing.  Only watched the first video to this point.

If the engine is new, I'd run less prop...the 11-4 APC or 11.5-4 APC would work. Have you got plenty of oil in the fuel for the newer engine? I ran my first .46LA one tank full in the plane on the ground, saw that it was stable, and flew it on Powermaster 10-29 GMA. After that gallon was gone, I change to 10-22.  

I'll go watch the other video...ah, the second engine is going lean in the outsides, so lower that tank some more. I kinda like to make my first adjustment 'coarse', so I can see something happening, then perhaps work backwards toward where it had been. I just don't see any sense in making a tiny adjustment a dozen times, when I can make a big adjustment and get something done right now! I'm sure opinions will vary.

Good wide, free turning tires will help a lot on grass. The stock Brodak wheels should be good. Steve

[Garf]

I setteled on the XOAR 12 X 4 on my Fronkensteen 4/LA 46. It ran great, but my engine was well broken in.

[Chris Fretz]

If you lower the tank, the engine will run richer when inverted. If you raise the tank, the engine will run richer when upright.

Like Rusty wrote, the ugly end of run (on-off-on-off) can be fixed by shimming the back of the tank outward. But it can also be fixed by moving the LO's forward. I'd shim the tank 1/8"-1/4"and then work with the LO's to get them correct later. Leave the tank aft end shimmed out, it won't hurt a thing.  Only watched the first video to this point.

If the engine is new, I'd run less prop...the 11-4 APC or 11.5-4 APC would work. Have you got plenty of oil in the fuel for the newer engine? I ran my first .46LA one tank full in the plane on the ground, saw that it was stable, and flew it on Powermaster 10-29 GMA. After that gallon was gone, I change to 10-22.  

I'll go watch the other video...ah, the second engine is going lean in the outsides, so lower that tank some more. I kinda like to make my first adjustment 'coarse', so I can see something happening, then perhaps work backwards toward where it had been. I just don't see any sense in making a tiny adjustment a dozen times, when I can make a big adjustment and get something done right now! I'm sure opinions will vary.

Good wide, free turning tires will help a lot on grass. The stock Brodak wheels should be good. Steve

Thanks for the info Steve! I've been running Brodaks 10% 11.5castor  11.5synthetic.

I setteled on the XOAR 12 X 4 on my Fronkensteen 4/LA 46. It ran great, but my engine was well broken in.

That prop sometimes is hard to get, hobby shop said it's on back order till end of June. Had a problem getting it last year too.

[Chris Fretz]

 Ok so I bench run the Roadrunner and it seemed to have a lot of vibration. Causing lots of air bubbles and erratic run. I believe I tracked it down to the spinner. I set it up with a expensive spinner from Brodaks in hopes that it wound be a better balanced spinner. No dice.

Are there any spinners out there you don't have to screw around with trying to balance, just curious?

Can you use RTV on the inside to balance it?

When you guys get a good run do you get any air bubbles in the fuel? Should you have absolutely no air bubbles in any control line airplane engine?

[RknRusty]

With a uniflow tank, you'll frequently see bubbles as wide as the fuel tube passing through the feed line. Those are just crossing over from the uni vent and getting sucked into the feed line, and they don't seem to bother anything. But foamy frothy fuel is what you want to avoid. I think I recall you pressure checked your tanks. Did you pump them up under water scary tight? And leave them to test for leakdown?

I've never balanced a 2" spinner like the ones I use. I do balance props as well as I can. Some are easier than others. Does it run okay without the spinner?
Rusty

[john e. holliday]

A good fuel filter will help some with air bubbles.   Now vibration with a running engine,  have you stopped the engine and relocated the prop setting.   I have seen it done and done it myself.  Rotate the prop 180 degrees from the setting you have and try again.  Let us know.

[Chris Fretz]

With a uniflow tank, you'll frequently see bubbles as wide as the fuel tube passing through the feed line. Those are just crossing over from the uni vent and getting sucked into the feed line, and they don't seem to bother anything. But foamy frothy fuel is what you want to avoid. I think I recall you pressure checked your tanks. Did you pump them up under water scary tight? And leave them to test for leakdown?

I've never balanced a 2" spinner like the ones I use. I do balance props as well as I can. Some are easier than others. Does it run okay without the spinner?
Rusty

Hi Rusty! I did pressure check them, I just did it again the other day with the filter attached. I did it scary tight but didn't leave it for a leakdown. I didn't want to screw with the spinner by grinding away material since it was so thin. And its the only type of spinner that will work on the airplane since I built it around it. So I used the RTV sealant to try to balance it.  I think I got it ok.  I wanted to try it without the spinner but the spinner has a boss on the back so the engine is recessed lower than the ring on the nose.  So the prop wouldn't tighten down without hitting it. I couldn't come up with anything to shim the prop out to work. Guess I could use a few washer from some mccoy engines...

Chris

[Chris Fretz]

A good fuel filter will help some with air bubbles.   Now vibration with a running engine,  have you stopped the engine and relocated the prop setting.   I have seen it done and done it myself.  Rotate the prop 180 degrees from the setting you have and try again.  Let us know.

Hi Doc, is a dubro filter a good filter?

Do you mean rotate the prop 180 and leave the spinner the way it was?

Chris

[Carl Cisneros]

Yes,try that first Chris.

Carl