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Author Topic: Engine Blueprints  (Read 7881 times)

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Engine Blueprints
« on: November 10, 2015, 01:28:32 PM »
Does anyone have or sell blueprints for a rear exhaust piped engine that would meet the needs of the stunt community?
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2015, 07:01:21 AM »
130 + views and no reply.This animal does'nt exist???Am I asking for such treasured info I'd have to be shot just for knowing?I have a close friend with a machine shop FULL of the latest CNC machine tools.
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline Motorman

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2015, 08:11:36 AM »
Dumb question. Who are you asking, OS Max, Enya, Nelson and Mecoa? This is hard fought proprietary information you're asking for free. If you can't buy the engine you want then reverse engineer it, then you're not up to the task besides, there's more to it than that. Does you're friend do aluminum casting, can he get the exotic metals for the piston, does he do chrome plating and have the equipment and skill to hone round within 50 millionths, what about color anodizing and laying up CF pipes? Did you think that with CNC machines the computer does all the work LOL! Is he ready to produce a small number of engines on a thin profit margin in an environment that's going electric? It's a business model that won't work anyway, even Fox gave up and they had a wide product line. Get over it Traxler you ain't got the juice.


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Offline peabody

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2015, 08:18:36 AM »
There exists a thread on Stuka about this, although I don't think they were referred to as "blueprints", but rather three views?
Plane designers use them to show typical installations.
I believe you'll find a 3 view of PA 40/51/61/65 series for sure.

Have fun!

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2015, 01:10:50 PM »
Dumb question. Who are you asking, OS Max, Enya, Nelson and Mecoa? This is hard fought proprietary information you're asking for free. If you can't buy the engine you want then reverse engineer it, then you're not up to the task besides, there's more to it than that. Does you're friend do aluminum casting, can he get the exotic metals for the piston, does he do chrome plating and have the equipment and skill to hone round within 50 millionths, what about color anodizing and laying up CF pipes? Did you think that with CNC machines the computer does all the work LOL! Is he ready to produce a small number of engines on a thin profit margin in an environment that's going electric? It's a business model that won't work anyway, even Fox gave up and they had a wide product line. Get over it Traxler you ain't got the juice.


MM
Walter,If you wish to display stupidity have at it.If you have nothing useful to add please leave your slander at the login page.
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2015, 01:23:36 PM »
Walter,If you wish to display stupidity have at it.If you have nothing useful to add please leave your slander at the login page.

He's a bit overly forceful, and his conclusions about your personal qualities were out of line, but he makes good points.  A famous Australian engine maker, Ivor F, was quoted "if you want to make a small fortune building model engines, start out with a large one".

So yes -- if you have a good stunt engine in hand then you have as much information as anyone will give you, and you have a good starting point for development.  I disagree with Walter about needing to cast everything -- you should be able to hog all of the "cast" bits from solid on a CNC machine -- but his other points about the difficulty of making motors sound on track to me.

If you want to go there -- go there.  But don't be disappointed if you lose your shirt.
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Offline GregArdill

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2015, 03:27:21 PM »
There's no Stunt engines as such, but look here for engine plans.
http://modelenginenews.org/

Your friend with his CNC gear can make swarf until doomsday making these.

Offline Walter Hicks

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2015, 04:32:07 PM »
Jeff, Ask your friend if he will Make Brad Walkers Pitch Gauge for us? You ask a great Question , We still have RO Jett making excellent engines for us
and Tom Dixon is importing Stalkers, Enya when you can get them, I believe someone made an engine and showed how they did it Pipemaker Mike?
Brian Turner was the one who made the engine and I believe has what you need I will look for the information It was on the other forum.
Mike Nelson has he website that has the information you need for a Stunt 61 RE please see this information in Stuka Stunt forum.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 05:00:50 PM by Walter Hicks »

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2015, 06:07:28 PM »
Thanx for the links guys.I have the prints for Brian Turners .61 RE at my buddies shop and his CAD guy should'nt have a problem.Will we have a viable subject?Who know's,at least I'll have some fun tinkering.Stranger things have happened when someone says"Hey,What if we?........."
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2015, 06:35:26 AM »
Thanx for the links guys.I have the prints for Brian Turners .61 RE at my buddies shop and his CAD guy should'nt have a problem.Will we have a viable subject?Who know's,at least I'll have some fun tinkering.Stranger things have happened when someone says"Hey,What if we?........."



Jeff, I wish you well but as a guy that's built some engines I can tell you there's a whole lot more to it that a good machining source. Plating, anodizing, bearing fits, honing, timing etc, all require finesse that isn't typical machine shop stuff. Not sure what you're after, but like they say, if it was easy everybody would do it. I think first off you'll find that the fixturing alone is gonna blow your sox off.
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2015, 08:27:33 AM »
Jeff, i like what you're saying here.
I don't know Jeff at all, but how do we know he's not swimming in a scrooge McDuck-esque pool of money each night? We also don't know who his friend is. So if they do this, and it takes two years to come to fruition, then i say it's time well spent. Personally, i would think it would be nice to have a reliable source for 1/2A speed engines ( hint hint Jeff.... Lol)

Offline Steve_Pollock

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2015, 08:54:23 AM »
Jeff, no RE stunt engines, but check out this site:  http://www.john-tom.com/html/ICEngines.html     Roy Clough's Little Dragon (glow) and the Boll-Aero 1.8 diesel are designed for the home-builder, and don't require any anodizing or special hardening/tempering processes.

Offline Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2015, 09:18:49 AM »
Try opening a dialogue with Bill Gruby over on the "Brotherhood of the Ring" forum.  He is a machinist that has built some control line motors.  He had plans that he got from someone in Australia (if memory serves).  He may be a good resource.  Good luck with the project and ignore all the downer jerks.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2015, 02:53:16 PM »
Don't some of the speed guys build their own engines.   
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Offline pipemakermike

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Re: Engine Blueprints - link to Brian Turners drawings
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2015, 03:53:57 PM »
Here is a link to the drawings of Brians engine.  Brian is still competing with this engine and is now using it with a tuned pipe (also made in CF by Brian!!) The engine performs extreemly well and is a faultless performer in the UK competitions.  Here is a link to the drawings:-
http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/aeromodelling/brians_engine/stunt_engine_1.htm

It is worth mentioning that no CNC, digital readouts, digital measuring or any other modern machinery was used.  Brian is a remarkable machinest.  The only thing he outsourced was the chrome plating of the cylinder which was done in the Ukraine.
Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Engine Blueprints - link to Brian Turners drawings
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2015, 06:16:18 AM »
Here is a link to the drawings of Brians engine.  Brian is still competing with this engine and is now using it with a tuned pipe (also made in CF by Brian!!) The engine performs extreemly well and is a faultless performer in the UK competitions.  Here is a link to the drawings:-
http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/aeromodelling/brians_engine/stunt_engine_1.htm

It is worth mentioning that no CNC, digital readouts, digital measuring or any other modern machinery was used.  Brian is a remarkable machinest.  The only thing he outsourced was the chrome plating of the cylinder which was done in the Ukraine.


Hey Mike, could the models be translated to STEP14 files? This would allow almost any CAD system to pull them in. I noticed this is fairly old by CAD standards and might be a problem.
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2015, 06:28:41 AM »
Thanx for the links guys.I have the prints for Brian Turners .61 RE at my buddies shop and his CAD guy should'nt have a problem.Will we have a viable subject?Who know's,at least I'll have some fun tinkering.Stranger things have happened when someone says"Hey,What if we?........."


Jeff, I'm not knocking I'm trying to help. Like I mentioned there is still missing information on the drawings and this is because guys that design and build engines don't need it on them. Finishes, actual hardness, straightness, taper, in general not tolerances are all things they do on the fly. The drawings that say.... OS Max have are much more detailed for production processes. Piston fitting in small lots is generally done by hand so after the cylinders are plated the pistons are lapped to fit, and this is an acquired skill.

There are MANY pitfalls you can avoid if your aware of them, simple oversights like bearing fits on the shaft and in the case can make the difference between long life and quick death. Plating quality and thickness, cylinder taper liner to case fits. Con rod length and straightness are just a few basic areas that are critical. If I can help let me know, as you may know I built engines in a home machine shop but I am also a designer for Ricardo, a 100 year old British company with a vast history of engine design is an incredibly range of type and displacement. Not sure what you're looking to do, but I hope it all works out for you.
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Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2015, 07:33:37 AM »
Mike,
      Thanx for posting the link to Brian's motor here.Being a couple years old I wondered if and how well it was running.You put my mind a bit at ease with "faultless performer".


Randy,
    Thanx for the words of encouragement! I know there will be more to learn and comprehend but I usually learn quite quickly and am more than willing to put in the effort.I would love to talk sometime about this project.I have stacks of old Model magazines and have started to read "Fuel lines" W/George Aldrich and others.Research will be a great help and I'm starting to gather the info.If this does work out it will be with the input of MANY knowledgeable people.Good thing is riches are the farthest thing from my mind on this project.If I could get some extra gas money for the contests,a little J for my PB,and some new batteries for my electric ships I'll be happy!
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"

Offline pipemakermike

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Re: Engine Blueprints - link to Brian Turners drawings
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2015, 06:32:32 AM »

Hey Mike, could the models be translated to STEP14 files? This would allow almost any CAD system to pull them in. I noticed this is fairly old by CAD standards and might be a problem.

IGES and STEP files are easy to do.  The modelling was all done using SolidWorks Version 2006.  I am currently using version 2010 to produce all the drawings for a fullsize 2ft narrow gauge Baldwin steam locomitive  that was originally built in 1898 to run on the Lynton to Barnstaple railway in Devon.  I am very close to completion of all the drawings (about 1200 of them) and the loco is nearly 90% built.

Regards
Mike Nelson

Offline proparc

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2015, 06:51:55 AM »
Right on Jeff!! I would like to know just what aluminum is used to make our motors. Now that PA's are no longer made, they still won't say what the aluminum is. I know a lot of motors are based on the A356 casting group but not the high end stuff.

Just exactly what aluminum did Kaz Minato use to make the New K77?
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2015, 06:07:37 PM »
Right on Jeff!! I would like to know just what aluminum is used to make our motors. Now that PA's are no longer made, they still won't say what the aluminum is. I know a lot of motors are based on the A356 casting group but not the high end stuff.

Just exactly what aluminum did Kaz Minato use to make the New K77?

The new K77 was made by Stalker to Kaz Minato's specifications.  A356 is likely for the case and head castings but I would suspect a much higher silicon content aluminum for for the Piston and Rod.  I'm not at all sure that the materials used in most pistons are available in small quantities.  Some require a "Mill Run" to be purchased which means a large cash outlay for investment!  Might get lucky sometimes and get tagged onto an aerospace order but that's sketchey!

Ringed engines can use more available materials without suffering too much.

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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re:
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2015, 08:12:39 AM »
I'm kind of astounded no one has really jumped on making the pitch gauge.

I mean.   It's a pitch gauge.   Not for control line.   For all of rc.   Including electric.

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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2015, 10:45:46 AM »
Jeff,

RSA-431 or 444 are propably the best piston materials, and somehow available. Check www.rsp-technology.com
For AAC cylinder we use Mahle 124. I got mine many years ago directly from Mahle Germany for free after explaining what I'm planning to do. 16 kilo's of it!
That metallurgy works well for lapped AAC and also with our ringed system. I think that a well thought ringed system is better in stunt.
For ABC cylinder, simple free cutting brass.
For crankshaft, I'd use 100Cr6, I don't know about US equivalent.
Good quality 7075 for conrod ref. for bronze bushings is not in my head now.
I don't know about casting alloys but if you want cas case, I'd recommend having them made in Ukraine. They are good at it. For barstock case, good start is #2024 but now we are leaning towards lower expansion alloys. Propably the RSP stuff with 18..24% Si.

Good luck,

Lauri

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 10:48:42 AM »
I'm not at all sure that the materials used in most pistons are available in small quantities.

Edit: Lauri's post really comes before mine; I just hit "send" anyway -- if you're in a buying mood, buying from RST, or at least trying to, is probably wise.  If you're in a "fiddling forever" mood, see below:

AFAIK you want hypereutectic aluminum, which means that the mix has enough silicon that it precipitates out as the metal cools during casting (silicon is more soluble in molten aluminum than in solid aluminum, much as carbon is more soluble in molten iron than solid -- hence the mechanical properties of cast iron).  It has a different (much lower) coefficient of thermal expansion than "normal" aluminum.

I wonder if you could melt down high-performance car pistons in a backyard foundry to get your starting material for you high-zoot model pistons?  It'd probably end up being a highly variable and error-prone process, but if you know a racer the starting material may be cheap.
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Offline bob whitney

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2015, 12:43:13 PM »


  CHEV VEGA blocks have been melted down for years to make pistons for the Big Block Speed Jobs ,when they were on 80% nitro and full pipes they were going through a piston every couple of flights
rad racer

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2015, 12:53:07 PM »
Vega blocks are what you want to melt down for AAC/ABC pistons. Tim will think I'm teasing him, but I'm not. Oops, Rad Racer beat me to it.

My suggestion would be to start by reverse-engineering a few piston/cyl. sets for a good high-end stunt engine. That way, you'd know where the problem is, if there happens to be one.

Having quickly looked at the drawings for Brian Turner's 10cc stunt donk...did anybody else notice that it has a baffled piston, and apparently, one bypass?  H^^  Steve
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2015, 01:13:46 PM »
Steve, I sold my Vega.  And besides, the Vega engine was in the back of the S-10 donor truck from whence the V-6 that was targeted for the car came.

I did not know that pistons could be baffled, or even if they could form any kind of understanding at all.  Is the piston baffled because the con-rod's story isn't consistent?  You learn something new every day.
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2015, 01:20:19 PM »
[quote

Having quickly looked at the drawings for Brian Turner's 10cc stunt donk...did anybody else notice that it has a baffled piston, and apparently, one bypass?  H^^  Steve
[/quote]

Yes, Brian's starting point was a Stalker .60. But he is too smart to just leave it like that.
I also recommend you to find and read the FMV story by Rob Metkemeijer. It kind of forms the base for all.

L

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2015, 05:38:02 PM »
If you're really serious about a first class stunt engine I would look at the PA series 61, 65, 75.  The engineering there is the best!

Randy Smith may still hold hopes of manufacturing them again at some point!  In reality there is none better.

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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2015, 07:01:16 PM »
http://www.technohobby.com.ua/online-shop/en

shkatov66@mail.ru

The above link takes you to a guy called Andrey Shkatov who states "We are ready to manufacture any engine or part ( preferably from 50 pieces) to order. The more quantity, the cheaper price. Quality and precision is guaranteed. If anyone has this need please contact me."
.

His reputation speaks for itself on a certain British forum site.
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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 12:30:02 AM »
I have wondered why no one has made a ST.V60 rear exhaust. The PA 75 ran just like it only more power.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2015, 08:16:20 AM »

I did not know that pistons could be baffled, or even if they could form any kind of understanding at all.  Is the piston baffled because the con-rod's story isn't consistent?  You learn something new every day.
not sure about baffling pistons Tim,, but I know a few stunt pilots who are easily bafffled,, LOL
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Offline George Albo

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2015, 01:28:04 PM »
Check your email
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Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 01:44:34 PM »
Slow but steady.Trying to do the homework.Titanium is stronger and lighter than steel.Any thoughts on a titanium crankshaft?
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Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 03:26:51 PM »
Jeff,

Titanium has lower modulus of elasticity so for sufficient stiffness it would have to be a lot thicker than a steel shaft. so there goes the weight gain. Also, bigger dia also increases weight and friction losses of bearings.
And as a sliding pair, you can expect several issues with Ti surfaces.
Beryllium shaft would be nice :)

L

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 03:30:48 PM »
Jeff -- what Lauri said.  Titanium is great stuff if you're looking for the best yield strength to weight ratio, but the stuff is springy.  For the best stiffness to weight ratio in a practical material, steel has titanium beat to flinders.

(Steel is also way easier to machine, I'm told -- I've never tried to machine titanium).
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Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 05:05:35 PM »
Jeff,

Titanium has lower modulus of elasticity so for sufficient stiffness it would have to be a lot thicker than a steel shaft. so there goes the weight gain. Also, bigger dia also increases weight and friction losses of bearings.
And as a sliding pair, you can expect several issues with Ti surfaces.
Beryllium shaft would be nice :)

L
Hi Lauri,Thanx for the info.I stopped by the shop and the titanium was mentioned.I will talk to him about the Beryllium.We want to make it from the best materials even tho some may cost more.Is Beryllium hard to machine or not readily available?Trax
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Offline Motorman

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 05:31:59 PM »

  CHEV VEGA blocks have been melted down for years to make pistons for the Big Block Speed Jobs ,when they were on 80% nitro and full pipes they were going through a piston every couple of flights

LOL, I have one of those rods melted down by Frank Garzon. Story was he melted part of a Chevy Vega block and poured it into a pipe. The thing looks crude. I never used it because uncle Henry gave me a piece of hi Si rod that he uses. Still have some of that too.

MM

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 06:40:57 PM »
Beryllium hard to machine or not readily available?Trax

Beryllium dust is toxic.  Unless the guy already handles it he'd be smart to not touch it with a ten-foot pole.  I'm not sure that a motor made with a beryllium crankshaft wouldn't be considered a generator of beryllium oxide.

Besides, getting the bestest material for the crankshaft is probably the least of your problems for a stunt engine.

http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/msds/49-Beryllium
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline steve bittner

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 07:30:28 PM »
Jeff and Mike I commend you for what your doing and encourage you to continue, spite the nay sayers  and the supposed experts. I will say there was a Pontiac mechanic at a dealership who built car engines and worked with machining and tolerences, and a modeler that his airplanes were second to none. His name was Mark Black out of Pasadena Md. He hurt himself lifting and bending over and had to stop working. He bought a small lathe and started machining tools and small parts. He was really into model engines and we became friends. He started making parts for club member engines and rebuilding them. With slight modifications and making parts with better tolerances the engines were running better, sounds like Clarence Lee & George Aldridge. I liked fast planes and used super tiger 60s that he remachined parts for that idled well, transitioned well and tac out at 13600 on a 11/71/2 props. He could build an engine from scratch and learned how to heat treat parts. He did well enough that a modeler who worked for NSA got him work building one off parts for aero space industries. He is well missed as he passed on couple years ago. Sorry for the long story, but Jeff you guys keep going and further your efforts. I thank you.

Offline Jeff Traxler

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Re: Engine Blueprints
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2015, 08:11:03 AM »
Hi Steve,Thanx for the encouragement!!I have a special price list for the experts and naysayers.They WILL pay more y1.When I asked about Beryllium I got  chuckle and"I make products from that for GM,NO PROBLEM".Trax
If you wanna sing the blues(Fly Stunt) you gotta pay your dues and "I know it don't come easy"


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