News:


  • April 25, 2024, 07:21:17 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Elfin 1.49 Diesel  (Read 3374 times)

Offline Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6866
Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« on: November 26, 2015, 01:35:35 PM »
   Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
   I was recently gifted an new in box Elfin 1.49 diesel engine. It was given to the guy who gave it to me by a gentleman in Australia by the name of Ivor F.  No, I didn't just use an initial for hi last name. Ivor f was mentioned in some columns in Model Builder magazine by Stu Richmond and was a bit of a legend down under I believe. It came with a hand written note by Ivor that states, " This Elfin 1.49 was hand started on a a 7X4 propeller on 9th August 1994. (signed) Ivor F. VH-1." It is serial numbered 084 both on the box and stamped on the bottom of one mounting lug.
 
  I am familiar with engines enough with engines to know that this engine is significant to diesel enthusiast and maybe collectors in general. Can someone tell me what I have here, what it's displacement is at 1.49cc?

   I posted this here in the main forum because I'm just looking for general information, not engine set ups and such. More of a history lesson I guess.

   Thanks in advance and again "HAPPY THANKSGIVING!"
   Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2015, 01:42:03 PM »
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Thomas

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 373
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2015, 01:47:58 PM »
Hi Dan, I was just about to post the Model Engine News link, but Tim beat me to it.

There's also some discussion here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/everything-diesel-87/11036863-russian-elfin-149-abc-repro.html

I don't know much about them personally, but understand that there were two versions - Ivor's iron/steel ones (good), and some ABC ones he had done in Russia (not so good). Hopefully you've got the former.

Steve

(1.49 cc= .09 ci btw)

Online qaz049

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2015, 06:57:46 PM »
... Duplicate
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:37:11 PM by qaz049 »

Online qaz049

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2015, 08:29:08 PM »

Dan,

significant to diesel enthusiasts? yes! But for all the wrong reasons.

They're not rare or particularly valuable. They're Russian replica's. The source can produce excellent engines.

The original Elfin engines were/are very good. These aren't dimensionally accurate copies.

Just about every Australian on this board would have known Ivor. Most personally. He was an honest man.

The links quoted above give a fair retelling of the whole sad Elfin replica story.

The Russian Elfins have problems mostly with metallurgy and  cylinder taper. The note from Ivor means that it can be hand started and run, and that the cylinder bore taper has been "fixed up".

I've seen ABC versions start and run fine when they came with the note. Some of the other non-Ivor ABC's will start and run with the help of a electric starter. Some won't. Some of the Iron/Steel will hand start. A whole lot won't even run.

A similar story with the Russian ABC Mills .75 engines I believe.

Good luck!


What's the displacement of a 1.49cc engine?

Well the smartarse answer is 1.49cc.

The capacity/displacement in Cubic Inches is .09,

The rule of thumb for the conversion is that 10cc is about .60 ci.

So 1.0cc is about .06ci.

1.5cc would be about .09ci.


Offline ash

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
    • I build guitars to pay for CL models!
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2015, 05:02:54 AM »
I have one of these ABC Elfins and unfortunately it falls into the non-Ivor, non-starting category. It also bears the scars of my attempts in that my rubber finger-protector made contact with the venturi casting whilst trying to start the beast and smashed the trumpet clean off right above the NVA!!

It still has enough venturi to run, but its problems are much further down the intake tract than that...
Adrian Hamilton - Auckland, NZ.

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2015, 06:51:39 AM »
I have one of these ABC Elfins and unfortunately it falls into the non-Ivor, non-starting category. It also bears the scars of my attempts in that my rubber finger-protector made contact with the venturi casting whilst trying to start the beast and smashed the trumpet clean off right above the NVA!!

It still has enough venturi to run, but its problems are much further down the intake tract than that...

My ABC starts and runs for ~20-30 seconds...until the brass cylinder expands and it loses compression and dies.

It could probably be fixed by cutting a groove for an "O" ring on the contra. I haven't bothered. 

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9937
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2015, 11:11:03 PM »
For some reason, I keep thinking that there were at least two Replicas made, one from Russia (or other ex-Soviet state?), and one from the Gordon Burford/Ivor F. combine?

I met Gordon in California in '79 at the World FF Champs (Taft), and again in Goulburn NSW, where I also met Ivor F. In the next California WFFC in '93, I met and sort of teamed up with Ivor's son, Tahn Stowe as the Aussie Retreival Team. "Tahn" means "creek or brook" in Gaelic or some such. Anyway,  at the '83 WFFC in Goulburn, I took delivery of #11 or 12 of the first batch of Gordon/Ivor "Deezil" 2cc diesels. After that, IIRC, was the high-tech 1.5cc TR "Sesqui" diesel and the Elfin 1.49cc (or maybe the 2.5cc version?).  I would bet that Ian Russell would know about this stuff. Somebody send him a PM!!!  y1 Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online qaz049

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2015, 12:49:17 AM »
For some reason, I keep thinking that there were at least two Replicas made, one from Russia (or other ex-Soviet state?), and one from the Gordon Burford/Ivor F. combine?

I met Gordon in California in '79 at the World FF Champs (Taft), and again in Goulburn NSW, where I also met Ivor F. In the next California WFFC in '93, I met and sort of teamed up with Ivor's son, Tahn Stowe as the Aussie Retreival Team. "Tahn" means "creek or brook" in Gaelic or some such. Anyway,  at the '83 WFFC in Goulburn, I took delivery of #11 or 12 of the first batch of Gordon/Ivor "Deezil" 2cc diesels. After that, IIRC, was the high-tech 1.5cc TR "Sesqui" diesel and the Elfin 1.49cc (or maybe the 2.5cc version?).  I would bet that Ian Russell would know about this stuff. Somebody send him a PM!!!  y1 Steve

Steve Thomas has given a link above to a discussion on another forum about the Elfin 1.49cc replica's.

I've cut and pasted the best response on it here. Explains it all.

Beginning of quote.

" RE: Russian Elfin 149 ABC Repro

    I may have said this before on this-or perhaps another forum. A synopsis of the Elfin 149 debacle. In the mid 80's, Ivor F-the man behind the earlier highly successful Doonside Mills 75 and Sesqui 1.5 glow and diesel projects commenced work on a replica Elfin 149 PB-these engines being deemed the best of the British vintage 1.5cc/09 cu in designs of their era. Bear in mind that this was before Ebay-and the only alternative to getting lucky and buying a very second hand original, was to produce a replica. And there had been the very successful Mills replica project and the Burford deezil and Elfin 249 replicas.The projected market for the 149 was the Australian and NZ vintage fliers, general sports use, and collectors. Equally bear in mind that the only 1.5 diesels available new anywhere would have been the PAW 149 and the Russian MK17.A number of Australian modelling luminaries were involved, making different parts for the engine. Sadly, there was little overall coordination, and most of the bits-though beautifully made-would not fit together [I have personally witnessed this in Ivor's workshop-and seen all the bins of hundreds and hundreds of completed Elfin 149 parts-that won't fit together. I was there with Lloyd Willis-we were there for the entire afternoon-and in that 4 hour period Ivor managed to assemble 2 engines-one of which I own!]. At this stage the project had lost $50,000 or more-with little hope of recovery. This was back in 1990-22 years ago. Ivor then negotiated with the Russians (who exactly has never been made clear) to produce 1000 Elfin 149 replicas, which could be quickly sold to recover part of the costs-and partially restore the damaged reputation-of the Australian Elfin project. He stipulated that he would personally inspect each engine before finally accepting delivery. The Russians duly went ahead and delivered the engines as contracted-except that they were all ABC (the few Australian made ones had been ferrous)-'I didn't tell you to make them ABC' said Ivor. ''Well zis is the vay ve make zese engines" said the Russians. Mutter mutter mutter went Ivor-and proceeded to make good on his promise of checking each and every one.....
    The outcome was something along the lines of 'these 250 are OK-the rest are junk, and I'm not paying for them.....' Mutter mutter mutter went the Russians and went off in a huff uttering dire threats.

    So Ivor ended up selling ABC engines that met his quality standards-these are the Doonside ABC Elfins, and they come with a hand written dated certificate from Ivor. The russians of course, now found that they had inherited a lot of dodgy unsold Elfins that THEY now had to get rid of to recoup THEIR costs-so they offloaded them all over-some in Australia, some in the US, some in Europe. Subsequently-perhaps when things had cooled down a bit-it was decided that there was nothing basically wrong with the production methods-and that good old ferrous technology was better in this design-and then the steel Russian made Elfins appeared. I am unsure on exactly when this occurred-my best guess is the mid 1990s. I am equally unsure whether a single Russian manufacturer was involved-or several [I suspect initially there was one, but subsequently manufacturers may have changed.]. So the sequence went: Australian made Elfin 149 (steel)->Russian 149ABC->(sold by IvorF)->reject ABC engines sold elsewhere->Russian steel version produced->sold widely->now both Russian versions available from several sources. Total production unknown-but probably at least several thousand

    There is a slight corollary to the story. A supplier-Mach East- in Australia, sold the russian Elfins and a variety of other russian engines-MDS glows etc. He had a NZ agent, the late Des McAnelly, who was a noted CL speed flier and engine man. The Elfins and MK17 diesels were the biggest sellers in NZ, and Des realised the that basic problem with the Elfins was that they were set up to tight and with too much taper. He checked every engine that passed through his hands, and having both the equipment, and the engine knowledge, honed the liners to improve the fits. So a Des McAnelly breathed on Elfin 149 reject was actually a better engine than one of the 'passed Ivor F QC' ones. I should know-I have four in total-an original Ivor F steel, an Ivor F ABC one, a Des McAnelly honed 'reject' ABC Russian one, and an ABC one obtained second hand of unknown status (but probably one of Des' ones). That being said-the Ivor F steel is the best handling one, the Des McAnelly treated reject is the fastest on an 8x4 or 7x4, the Ivor F ABC a bit hard to start but runs OK, and the 'unknown provenance' one has only been bench run and is a pig to start.

    So when it comes to replica Elfin 149s its a very tangled web..................

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi' " End of quote.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 03:08:35 AM by qaz049 »

Offline FLOYD CARTER

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 4458
    • owner
Re: Elfin 1.49 Diesel
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2015, 11:05:09 AM »
I have an original  British Elfin 1.49 now flying in a "Small Fry" (Ron Prentice, 1948).  This is an excellent diesel with more power than an .09 should have!

Still looking to buy an original Elfin 1.8cc diesel !!

Floyd
89 years, but still going (sort of)
AMA #796  SAM #188  LSF #020


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here