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Author Topic: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?  (Read 8791 times)

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2017, 11:08:53 PM »
  " My point was solely that a judge should never use prejudice as to his like or dislike of a color or a powerplant sound to artificially be used to enhance or degrade his legitimate perception of the maneuvers he is charge with assessing.  Any judge that would openly suggest doing so was appropriate in his view has no business judging.

Ted  "


Hi Ted
That "was" what I said in my first post, and what I personally believe, however that is NOT what happens 100% of the time , their prejudices do come in on occasion , some will even admit it as they have to me , There are others that have been told the same things .
For example some   LONG time judges like  very smooth flowing patterns, with soft smooth corners, and will score them high, others like  the hard violet , but precision of the  pattern done correct as the rule book describes .
Others  LOVE scale looking  planes , and will score them higher ,  for the majority of NATs quality judges they just look at  the  maneuver , and score it as PER the rulebook , as they should. But what I have told you here has happened, many times .
The best thing to do about it is practice  practice  practice... with a coach! 
 As you have said, the pilot needs to just worry about pilot stuff , and let judges worry about  judges stuff .

Regards
Randy

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2017, 12:30:02 AM »
Good on you Randy for sticking to your guns here, a good friend of mine was chipped after a contest flight about the noise his model made and it would score higher if it wasn't so offensive.

Now this could be good old Aussie humour coming into play and simply a poke in the ribs - but it was said.

As for the "Halo" effect, well it would be good to get another countries opinion here.
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Dallas Hanna

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2017, 06:40:37 AM »
Good on you Randy for sticking to your guns here, a good friend of mine was chipped after a contest flight about the noise his model made and it would score higher if it wasn't so offensive.

Now this could be good old Aussie humour coming into play and simply a poke in the ribs - but it was said.

As for the "Halo" effect, well it would be good to get another countries opinion here.

And I can guarantee that this is 100% correct Chris!!  The next time I saw this gentleman a few weeks later at a comp he asked where that model was and he was told it was cut up and put in the garbage bin! What was the use competing with an engine which had a negative effect on the score of a flight.  That was mid 90s and of course I got over his biased comments quickly and I still use the same MVVS 49 (51) RE/RI engine/muffler setup as I found that other engines were just as "different".  Must add that the person has long since flown off into the wide blue yonder as he wouldn't listen and never progressed from a mediocre flier.

We've also had a judge very biased to scale looking models.  The 1977 OZ Nats had the first round scores wiped, that judge removed and the comp re started after mass protests to the organisers.
 
Although not involved in comp flying these days, the last advice I've heard going around here is that if you don't have a $4000 model you may as well not compete.  Now that's encouraging to a diminishing stable of modellers following F2b here in OZ!

HH

Offline Target

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2017, 09:07:03 AM »
Don't most judges compete themselves?
I would think that what goes around should come around, and personally, I can't imagine why any judge would spout off with some comment about intentionally de-rating a flight based on anything but the flight patter accomplished.
Judges are human, and they are subject to involuntary biases. But they should always strive to be completely unbiased, and shouldn't even joke about it.
In my opinion.....

I have one flying buddy that ONLY sport flies the competition pattern, and he's quite good, but he never competes, because he says it is too subjective.

R,
Chris
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Chris
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2017, 09:18:48 AM »

Although not involved in comp flying these days, the last advice I've heard going around here is that if you don't have a $4000 model you may as well not compete.  Now that's encouraging to a diminishing stable of modellers following F2b here in OZ!

       That's another example of the sort of self-destructive nonsense that all the "stunt experts" seem to dispense on a regular basis. Several people jumped all over me the other day for pointing out that issues that are non-existent or trivial shouldn't be incorporated into your plan. At best it's a waste of time, at worst, it's will completely cripple your efforts.

      In stunt, you *very rarely* get beat by the other pilots. Almost always, you *beat yourself* for a variety of reasons. It's particularly true when you are not at the Paul/David level, almost anyone has the physical capability to fly just as well as they do, and anything short of that is entirely, completely, 100% under the control of the pilot.  All these other things are merely excuses.

    From my own experience, I have lost more contests than almost anyone here, many by less than 5 points. Like the 2008 NATs, where I lost on the last flight of the day by 1.25 points. I got a very good score, but made a few mistakes that I could clearly see, and the judges could clearly see and scored appropriately. The reason was that I got over-confident with a big lead, my concentration wandered, and made just enough more mistakes to be overtaken at the end. That was ENTIRELY under my control, it wasn't the judges, it wasn't the sound of my airplane, it wasn't the color I painted the airplane. It was one Brett William Buck losing focus and making mistakes, nothing else.

     The Shark is a very good airplane and for what you would have to do to replicate it, cheap. You sure aren't going to see me build a equivalent airplane for someone for a mere $4000.  But it is clearly not the best, and the plans for better airplanes like the Impact have been around for a long time, and the article will tell you *exactly* what you need to do. Yes, any airplane takes substantial skill to construct to the quality necessary, but it's not beyond anyone's capability.

    Not to be pedantic, but people need to worry about what *they* are doing, not what other people do. If the score it not what you want, then the solution is to fly better (with all that entails). That's far from simple to achieve, but it's certainly a simple concept.

    I know that almost no one will pay any attention, and continue to speculate about all this stuff. There will soon be a thread about the Grays from Zeta Reticuli manipulating the judges to prefer pilots with spindly bodies and gigantic heads, or something similar. But maybe someone will actually believe it and take advantage.

      Brett

Offline Target

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2017, 09:39:03 AM »
           In stunt, you *very rarely* get beat by the other pilots. Almost always, you *beat yourself* for a variety of reasons.

If the score it not what you want, then the solution is to fly better (with all that entails). That's far from simple to achieve, but it's certainly a simple concept.

      Brett

This is very true in many model flying comps, not just stunt! The same applies to F3F slope racing sailplanes. I beat myself all the time. When I'm on, I'm really on. When I'm distracted, then I am mid-pack.


 There will soon be a thread about the Grays from Zeta Reticuli manipulating the judges to prefer pilots with spindly bodies and gigantic heads, or something similar. But maybe someone will actually believe it and take advantage.

      Brett

I'm in big trouble then! LOL
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2017, 04:24:38 PM »
Once again I can only conclude my thoughts with my old saw about maintaining mental health when competing in subjectively judged events.  

It's the pilot's job to fly and the judge's job to judge.  Neither can do anything about the performance of the other, ergo, the bottom line is: at the end of the day you shake hands and each thank the other for doing the best job at their job as they can.

Any other attitude about it will just make a great hobby less so and, as Brett has said over and over, you will have your hands full perfecting the things you CAN do and doing so will leave NO productive time to waste on those things you CAN'T.  That pretty much includes complaining about those "can't" things.

Do the best job you can. Learn from the top fliers and craftsmen that have succeeded before you and inform the uphill direction of your own performance in a positive way.

Ted
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 05:01:41 PM by Ted Fancher »

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2017, 05:00:59 PM »
Once again I can only conclude my thoughts with my old saw about maintaining mental health when competing in subjectively judged events. 

It's the pilot's job to fly and the judge's job to judge.  Neither can do anything about the performance of the other, ergo, the bottom line is at the end of the day you shake hands and each thank the other for doing the best job at their job as they can.

Any other attitude about it will just make a great hobby less so and, as Brett has said over and over, you will have your hands full perfecting the things you CAN do and doing so will leave NO productive time to waste on those things you CAN'T.  That pretty much includes complaining about those "can't" things.

Do the best job you can. Learn from the top fliers and craftsmen that have succeeded before you and inform the uphill direction of your own performance in a positive way.

Ted


I agree , and that is pretty much precisely  what I have said in my post

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #58 on: April 14, 2017, 05:02:42 PM »
     "  I know that almost no one will pay any attention, and continue to speculate about all this stuff. There will soon be a thread about the Grays from Zeta Reticuli manipulating the judges to prefer pilots with spindly bodies and gigantic heads, or something similar. But maybe someone will actually believe it and take advantage.

      Brett   "



Hi Brett
No worries there.. you can control that, just make  heavy aluminum foil hats for the  judges !

Randy

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2017, 05:03:36 PM »

I agree , and that is pretty much precisely  what I have said in my post

Randy

There you go, my friend.

Ted

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2017, 04:31:09 PM »
Dental drill electric noise gets docked when I Judge. Kidding. Just kidding. No...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Target

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2017, 07:52:20 PM »
See, now that's what I'm talking about. Why even joke about it?
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Chris
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2017, 01:18:17 AM »

It's the pilot's job to fly and the judge's job to judge.  Neither can do anything about the performance of the other, ergo, the bottom line is: at the end of the day you shake hands and each thank the other for doing the best job at their job as they
Ted

With all due respect Ted, re-read the post by Dallas.

If the pilots suspect corruption in judging they should do something about it, not resign themselves to the belief that it is pointless.
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Dallas Hanna

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #63 on: April 17, 2017, 02:47:40 AM »
With all due respect Ted, re-read the post by Dallas.

If the pilots suspect corruption in judging they should do something about it, not resign themselves to the belief that it is pointless.


If I'd worried too much about it Chris I would have missed out on the enjoyment of competing for many years from 1962 until around 2010 even though there were gaps due to work commitments.  Ad to that, meeting many like modellers from OS makes the day.  At the end of the day I did as Ted says, shake hands with all concerned and get ready for the next meet. ;D

By the way, are you ever going to make a trip "Downunder" to Sydney again Ted Fancher??  Seems a long time since we met at Jeff Reeves' house!!

HH

Online Lauri Malila

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #64 on: April 17, 2017, 03:36:09 AM »
With a noisy model, you will loose your practise field sooner than later. So yes, it does make a difference in scores.
L

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #65 on: April 17, 2017, 08:39:31 AM »

If the pilots suspect corruption in judging they should do something about it, not resign themselves to the belief that it is pointless.


    Do something about it?  What?  If you have a video of judges studying the scoreboard between rounds (which actually happened), then yes, do something. Giving your countrymen or buddies all 10s (or all 40s in conventional stunt) so you "get thrown out high", yes (this has also happened in real life).  "Suspecting" it?  There's nothing to do, and the only things you *could* do are indistinguishable from finger-pointing. This has led to the most destructive and/or non-productive behavior ever, and to federal crimes that were investigated by the FBI.

    You cannot act on "suspicions" because of exactly the effect described here - the strong tendency of stunt people to look for some sort of conspiracy or non-existent bias in everything. The only result of "acting on suspicions" is accusing someone of cheating with no proof. And proof, outside very blatant examples like above, is also non-existent. There is NOTHING you can tell from studying scores that will prove anything about cheating or bias (intentional or otherwise).

    The premise of a subjective event is that it is subjective. You ask the judges to give their opinion, they give it. There's no way, even hypothetically, to separate a difference of opinion from unintentional bias or from intentional bias. You see various bullshit analyses from time to time (like "Anatomy of a Team Trials") but that's all they are, bullshit.

     We cannot go after the judges based on "suspicion" or imagined slights. Not only does it end up with unwarranted attacks or campaigns against individuals who volunteer their precious time to permit the rest of us to enjoy our event and more-or-less act like prima donnas for one week a year, it (again) is a massive waste of time or energy. Not only that, it destroys your personal reputation, which is the only thing of any value you might get out of stunt. There are several hallmark examples.

   I will contradict myself from above. If you suspect bias, you should do something very specific - fly better next time. Of course that's the solution to any other problem you might be having, too.  It really is that simple.

      Brett

   

Offline Target

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2017, 10:12:00 AM »
Agreed, but still the judges have a responsibility to be as objective as they can be, and I'm certain that 99% of them are, and also that 100% of the ones that enjoy what they are doing are in fact as objective as possible....
If a judge finds themselves to possibly in the 1% that ISN'T enjoying what they are doing, it's up to them to be responsible, and maybe just decide to take themselves out of that position.

I agree though that since the task requested is subjective from the start, a completely objective result seems by definition impossible.
Other types competition are far more objective.

After all of this, these are toy airplanes, and it is supposed to be fun. When it isn't fun anymore, it's time to either take a break or branch out to another area of our hobby that is fun.

Your last post is so spot-on. Judging stunt and figure skating are subjective by nature. Racing and other activities are a bit more black and white, and far less subjective.

That being said, in order to even have a stunt competition, you NEED judges, so they should have the pilots support and thanks every time they serve the pilots.
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2017, 02:06:15 AM »
    Do something about it?  What?

      Brett
   

Well, as already demonstrated, a class action works well.

And I agree that demonstrating alone is ineffective so get a concensus going with a democratically agreed upon course of action and present it to the tournament director.

You are unlikely to be ignored.
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Online Howard Rush

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #68 on: April 19, 2017, 01:04:21 PM »
There is NOTHING you can tell from studying scores that will prove anything about cheating or bias (intentional or otherwise).     

Certainly not from just looking at a few scoresheets.   We use a well-publicized formula for picking finals judges at the US stunt Nats.  If anybody can come up with a better scheme (and I'm unconvinced of the statistical validity of ours), I'd like to see it.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #69 on: April 19, 2017, 02:22:21 PM »
Tell the truth, Frank. You started this topic primarily to drive Brett crazy.
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
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Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #70 on: April 19, 2017, 03:48:02 PM »
I was going to stay away from this post as I wasn't sure if you were serious.
Here's my two cents.
I have had the pleasure of judging some of the best fliers in the country.
The competition at the Golden State Stunt Championships is overwhelming.
Imagine, judging the likes of Paul Walker, David Fitzgerald, Brett Buck,Ted Fancher, Howard Rush, Chris Cox, Alan Resinger, Jim Aron, Bob Whitley and on and on.
I don't care if it's Paul, Howard, Chris or Alan flying electric, or Ted, Dave or Brett flying a piped ship, I am so focused on each maneuver, the last thing that concerns me is the sound of the motor.
I also fly expert and being a judge, I know my mistakes before the judges can write down a score.
Bottom line, when I fly like crap it shows on my score sheet. When I fly good I get a good score.
I do not and will not worry about the color or sound of my plane.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #71 on: April 19, 2017, 06:12:33 PM »
So you luck out and you and your buddy win front row tickets to see the Rockettes at Radio City Music Hall and find yourselves dumbstruck by the array of lithesome, lock step beauty before you.

Your buddy leans over close to you and--without taking his eyes off the dancers for a second--says "that blond gal third from the left end is the most beautiful woman with the best high kicks on the stage!"  You, equally enthralled, respond by saying he's "out of his mind.  The black gal with the subtle maroon highlights in her ebon hair is the hottest thing since God gave us Eve in the garden."

Which judge is cheating?

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #72 on: April 19, 2017, 07:20:28 PM »
So you luck out and you and your buddy win front row tickets to see the Rockettes at Radio City Music Hall and find yourselves dumbstruck by the array of lithesome, lock step beauty before you.

Your buddy leans over close to you and--without taking his eyes off the dancers for a second--says "that blond gal third from the left end is the most beautiful woman with the best high kicks on the stage!"  You, equally enthralled, respond by saying he's "out of his mind.  The black gal with the subtle maroon highlights in her ebon hair is the hottest thing since God gave us Eve in the garden."

Which judge is cheating?

Both of them!  They're also in for some "frosty times" if their wives heard them!   LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ


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