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Author Topic: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?  (Read 8789 times)

Offline frank williams

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Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« on: April 04, 2017, 01:01:46 PM »
Does engine sound make a difference in your scores.... it shouldn't .... but a nice powerful four cycle is much nicer to listen to than a loud whining overlean sounding motor run.  I really think it does... how 'bout you.   S?P

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 01:28:49 PM »
Dunno 'bout my scores, but it surely does in my enjoyment!  Nuthin' like the tractor growl of my PA's out there on the lines. y1 y1 y1
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline big ron

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 01:42:02 PM »
Does engine sound make a difference in your scores.... it shouldn't .... but a nice powerful four cycle is much nicer to listen to than a loud whining overlean sounding motor run.  I really think it does... how 'bout you.   S?P
Man get ready
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 01:55:55 PM »
Frank,

Interesting question.  Some might argue that this is similar to the question if color and color schemes affect the way judges score.  However, in my opinion, the two subjects are entirely different.

From my experience, I believe that engine/motor sound does make a difference in the way judges score.  This factor might change over time as judges become more familiar with different powerplant sounds.

I was witness at a World Championships where I heard a judge complain that a particular piped ship flew too fast.  (I have no idea if the perceived speed affected the score from that judge, but given the fact he commented on it, I have an idea it did.)  During that contest, I timed the lap time of that particular plane.  Surprise, surprise, it was slower than most of the unpiped ships at that contest.  Now, did that judge feel the maneuvers were flown too fast to be able to judge accurately, I have no idea, but since he commented, I feel that the scores he gave were impacted.

As a judge, I know that there is a factor between hearing the "whirring" sound of the electrics and the noise/snarly sound of the IC engines - both unpiped and piped.  I think that I have been "lulled" into how "pleasant" the electric pattern being flown (and even the 4-strokers) is compared to the snarly IC engines.  I am aware, personally, of this going on in my perception of the pattern being flown.  I feel, over the years, as I have become more accustomed to the different "sounds" of these contraptions and try to not let the noise, the type of noise, or lack of noise affect my score.  I have no idea if I, personally, allow the sound to affect the score.  I definitely try not to let it do so.  How other judges react, I have no idea.  It would take a considerable effort and time to come up with any kind of "scientific" analyses to determine if judges, either individually or as a group, allow sound to be a factor in their scoring.

I like to think that over time as all judges have more experience with these various types of power plants that their sound becomes less and less of a factor in their scoring.

This gets into the realm similar to when judges get "lulled" into a pilot's pattern where every bottom is consistently and exactly at 5 feet (squares and loops, pullouts of the wingover) and good scores result, almost regardless of sizes and shapes.  National and World Championships have been won with that style of pattern.  That does not happen so much anymore because top fliers are now putting correct sizes and shapes on those consistent bottoms, just like the rules require (though I think sizes generally can be improved across all levels of competition.)

Keith


Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 02:23:38 PM »
A good judge  going  by the   RULEs  will  NOT let  sound influence  scores, that  said, Yes I have seen a few of them that did give scores high and low based partly on how the  "sound"  was.
Same is true for  color, and if you want to get into it, I have seen judges  go high because the plane being flown was a scale  looking plane.
and I have seen a  gorgeous scale plane get less points than it deserved, by a large margin???
  So   you  build  the best plane you can,
paint it to suit you,
and it would be good if it had an easy to see color scheme, or one that has great contrast,
then  PRACTICE with a  good coach,
put your best in front of the  JUDGES and  take  your  score as  given.
It doesn't need to be  over thought.

Regards
Randy

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2017, 04:14:06 PM »
I'll give you a ten point bonus, but only if it sounds exactly like a Harley.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Steve Thompson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2017, 04:35:04 PM »
Clearly, a flash steam powered stunter would be the best way to go...

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2017, 04:43:41 PM »
In spite of my previous smart-ass comment, I would not consciously allow the motor sound to make a difference in how I judge.  I think I wouldn't do so unconsciously, either.

I've certainly seen magnificent flights by both electrics and noise-makers, and have seen them get points that match what I think they should have gotten.
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2017, 04:59:07 PM »
I'll give you a ten point bonus, but only if it sounds exactly like a Harley.

Yuck !!   how about  a  Wasp radial  or a  Merlin 16 cyl ????

Randy

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2017, 06:40:14 PM »
Yuck !!   how about  a  Wasp radial  or a  Merlin 16 cyl ????

Randy

 Wait a minute, Merlin sixteen cylinder?

 All I know is a proper C/L model airplane should sound like one, not a ceiling fan, or a drone.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2017, 07:24:29 PM »
Wait a minute, Merlin sixteen cylinder?

 All I know is a proper C/L model airplane should sound like one, not a ceiling fan, or a drone.


or a 12 cylinder..if you want the  wimpy  sound!

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2017, 07:34:57 PM »

or a 12 cylinder..if you want the  wimpy  sound!

 I've yet to hear a wimpy sounding (full scale) P-51. I've never seen one with a sixteen cylinder engine either!  ;D
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline frank williams

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2017, 07:53:12 PM »
at the Lubbock Nats I had a really offensive pipe sound (launched at 13k) .... David Fitzgerald took his wife over to the airline terminal one afternoon so she could fly home ... he said that while he was there (about a mile from the cl area) he could hear jet speed and me ..... I didn't do so well that year .... judges shouldn't let  sound play a part, but I think it might to a certain extent .... a good Harley sound has to be 10 points.. #^ ... or better yet a strained harsh sound might be minus 1 point per trick ..

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2017, 08:10:18 PM »
I've yet to hear a wimpy sounding (full scale) P-51. I've never seen one with a sixteen cylinder engine either!  ;D

no one was talking about a full scale  P51,  but if I was  I would want  the  28 cylinder  radial sound,  or  16 PA 75 Merlin engines mated...
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 09:11:20 PM by RandySmith »

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2017, 08:14:32 PM »
at the Lubbock Nats I had a really offensive pipe sound (launched at 13k) .... David Fitzgerald took his wife over to the airline terminal one afternoon so she could fly home ... he said that while he was there (about a mile from the cl area) he could hear jet speed and me ..... I didn't do so well that year .... judges shouldn't let  sound play a part, but I think it might to a certain extent .... a good Harley sound has to be 10 points.. #^ ... or better yet a strained harsh sound might be minus 1 point per trick ..

well  that was  loud... but the  better trick  was  the  torpedo launch !!

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2017, 08:24:53 PM »
no one was talking about a full scale  P51,  but if I was  I would want  the  24 cylinder  radial sound,  or  16 PA 75 Merlin engines mated...


 No worries Randy, I thought that back there you were meaning to refer to the V-12 Merlin in a P-51.

 Now, on the other hand, I've never seen a 24 cylinder radial either...
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2017, 09:10:33 PM »
No worries Randy, I thought that back there you were meaning to refer to the V-12 Merlin in a P-51.

 Now, on the other hand, I've never seen a 24 cylinder radial either...


Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major  , I made a typo on that one it is  28 cylinders  not  24

Although I did see a  P47  with a 17 cylinder  Wasp  Radial , it flew and got the pilot  home... 1  cylinder  was blown clean off, another damged
I heard   a tale that there was one with  3 cylinders  missing  that made it home

Randy


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2017, 09:15:49 PM »
Sound!  What sound?  I fired up my OS LA 46 one the Hobo and walked out to the handle.  Picked it up along with the stooge release handle and pulled for release of the plane.   It didn't move.  So I'm thinking the stooge is hung up.  Pulled again and the plane still sat there.  Then I noticed the was no exhaust and the grass wasn't moving.  The engine had quit while I was walking out to the circle.  Even worse with the little LA 25's.  But, the few times I've judged, I was concentrating on the maneuvers the pilot was trying to do with the plane.  No sound and no color as it made it way thru the pattern.  Even after the pilot landed I had to look at score sheet to see who the pilot was.   Is that short term memory loss or not. LL~ LL~ H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2017, 01:45:06 AM »
Does engine sound make a difference in your scores.... it shouldn't .... but a nice powerful four cycle is much nicer to listen to than a loud whining overlean sounding motor run.  I really think it does... how 'bout you.   S?P
Sister thread to the color one but ...... no inference to judges (yet.)

Sound can be a good 'locator' (don't believe then talk to a blind person) and really can aid sight at times.

And when it is pleasant to the ear people want 'locate'' it, track it, engage with it and want to hear more of it.

An IC engine adds dimension that a ceiling fan lacks but I have heard a friends MVVS 51 with a metal tuned pipe that does sound brash and has been commented on. (I wont go further as its his story really).

To me the best sound is the cadence produced by the human heart and its why HD wanted to patent their trademark potato ''sound.'
It sounds alive, a bit human and never boring.

And bass notes seem more appealing too, fourstroking and fourstrokes , and big diesels are good examples  here.
Multi cylinder engines like Saito V twin I would love hear, anyone got a link to say YouTube  for one of these?
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2017, 10:59:37 AM »
Clearly, a flash steam powered stunter would be the best way to go...

I've been a proponent of flash steam power for stunt for a long time. Grape minds think alike!  010! Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2017, 11:15:16 AM »
I've been a proponent of flash steam power for stunt for a long time. Grape minds think alike!  010! Steve

     I don't expect much for stunt, but just running one at all, like in a boat, has fascinated me for years.

    Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2017, 11:29:54 AM »
     I don't expect much for stunt, but just running one at all, like in a boat, has fascinated me for years.

    Brett

There's a video on YouTube of an English guy running a tether flash-steam powered boat. I was impressed with how fast it was, and also by how quiet it was (not at all!).  LL~ Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2017, 06:23:02 PM »


Pratt & Whitney R-4360 Wasp Major  , I made a typo on that one it is  28 cylinders  not  24



 There we go, that's more like it!  ;D
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2017, 10:47:53 PM »



Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2017, 06:21:14 AM »
I would deduct ten points if it sounded like a Harley! Better yet... I'd tell him to pack up his lines and go home !Now, if it sounded like a Norton Commando at full song the pilot would win hands down.

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2017, 08:23:21 AM »
This entire thread speaks to the underlying notion of prejudice in all of its nasty renderings! I have personally experienced wins especially as an Advanced flyer because my engine at that time was the King of Growl! I've seen the "Halo" effect come forth many times especially when competing in the "Halo" wearing persons home field! He wins simply because he is who he is! No matter how well he flew or didn't fly!

As a Judge watching top electric flyers perform, who I think should only fly against other electric flying people, I am amazed by the rhythm of their motors performing the patterns! Does that influence me more than that sweet ST .60/.46 growl? Not one smidgen! Both have their particular form of sweetness even though I am an electric shuner!

By the time one stands all day,or perhaps two days as at the Brodak FlyIn, judging flight after flight of well executed patterns, who among us gives one pitutie about what color the flyer's plane is much less what sort of power plane is in the darned thing? I really care only about what the shapes are and how they were executed!

Phil Spillman
Phil Spillman

Online Dan Berry

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2017, 12:47:29 PM »
I can say that without any doubt that my scores are lower when the engine doesn't make any noise.
When it stops making noise in the bottom of an outside square I get a lower score than when it stops making noise on the third leaf of the clover.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2017, 06:46:00 PM »

When it stops making noise in the bottom of an outside square I get a lower score than when it stops making noise on the third leaf of the clover.


  LL~ LL~ LL~
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

Offline phil c

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2017, 04:46:42 PM »
Face it, everything affects how the judges score, whether they will admit it or not.  Heavy exhaust smoke kicked by the flaps can make a corner look wobbly,  if the motor doesn't 4-2 just right it sounds different and can affect the scores.  The fuselage shape and the profile paint job can do it.  Why do you think some call them stunt sticks.  A bad paint job will affect some judges.  An especially good one can affect others.  The noise of the wheels when it touches down.  Sometimes the gear giving a bit gives a bounce look makes a smooth landing look rough.The flying order affects things, especially when the judges have to wait if someone is late.  You name it.

Phil C.
phil Cartier

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2017, 05:05:22 PM »
Does engine sound make a difference in your scores.... it shouldn't .... but a nice powerful four cycle is much nicer to listen to than a loud whining overlean sounding motor run.  I really think it does... how 'bout you.   S?P
Hi Frank,
           would you include prop noise here?
It is actually very easy to muffle exhaust noise into oblivion but the fan out the front is not so easy to tame.

Witness electric stunters, still quite a bit noise is present.

Does a three blade prop make any difference noise wise than an equivalent two blade?
Does the air frame thrum through resonance (solid sheet wings vs tension coverings) making the situation worse?

If you want confirmation about propeller noise then listen to a ducted fan model scream at 22 000rpm, we had one down at the field and I didn't want to get any closer than 2 kms from it as the noise was physical.

Cheers.
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2017, 05:07:53 PM »
Face it, everything affects how the judges score, whether they will admit it or not.  H

  I am amazed that straphangers and casual competitors "know" all these things, but the guys winning the contests don't. Everybody is a damn expert, except for the judges and the most successful competitors.   That's quite a line of reasoning.

  There *are* relatively subtle things that do matter,  but this isn't it. "My square 8 is 180 degrees wide, I got a 27, therefore, I should go get some white pants". OY!

     You guys can keep coming up with excuse after excuse, but as long as you are, you will not get anywhere.
  
     But, by all means, carry on.

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2017, 07:27:15 PM »
This entire thread speaks to the underlying notion of prejudice in all of its nasty renderings! I have personally experienced wins especially as an Advanced flyer because my engine at that time was the King of Growl! I've seen the "Halo" effect come forth many times especially when competing in the "Halo" wearing persons home field! He wins simply because he is who he is! No matter how well he flew or didn't fly!

As a Judge watching top electric flyers perform, who I think should only fly against other electric flying people, I am amazed by the rhythm of their motors performing the patterns! Does that influence me more than that sweet ST .60/.46 growl? Not one smidgen! Both have their particular form of sweetness even though I am an electric shuner!

By the time one stands all day,or perhaps two days as at the Brodak FlyIn, judging flight after flight of well executed patterns, who among us gives one pitutie about what color the flyer's plane is much less what sort of power plane is in the darned thing? I really care only about what the shapes are and how they were executed!

Phil Spillman

UUUUhhhhhh.... This has to be the biggest load of tripe I've ever read even on this Forum.

If the area you fly in has really has judges like this (which I seriously doubt), then it's high time to organize some Judging Seminars.  Contact Keith Trostle and let him straighten out your judging problems.  I suspect however that the major problem is simply with your attitude.  I doubt that you actually know what a pattern should look like...that might influence your judgement in both flying and judging!

However if you talk about the judges in your area like this I can well imagine that they probably don't think very highly of your flying or intelligence!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2017, 08:11:04 PM »
Well no matter how much we think that the judges aren't doing right, it pays to keep mouth shut and thank them for the job they are doing.  I have judge a few times and I know I have missed some mistakes or maybe score a maneuver wrong, but in the long run I hope the out come of the contest is agreeable with most people. 

Remember not only the judges but all the people involved with running a contest should be thanked. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Phil Spillman

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2017, 08:18:33 PM »
Hay Randy, "Another Load of Tripe"? Please go back again an read my comments with care this time! My statement said in brief that I don't give a darn about what sounds come out of the plane I'm judging neither do I care about it's color!!!!!!!! What counts is how well the plane executes the maneuvers Period! Your comments are completely out of line and abrasive!!

Tally HO!

Phil Spillman
Phil Spillman

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2017, 08:43:40 PM »
Hay Randy, "Another Load of Tripe"? Please go back again an read my comments with care this time! My statement said in brief that I don't give a darn about what sounds come out of the plane I'm judging neither do I care about it's color!!!!!!!! What counts is how well the plane executes the maneuvers Period! Your comments are completely out of line and abrasive!!

Tally HO!

Phil Spillman

Phil, its the first paragraph that looked like the quotes were yours not others.
MAAA AUS 73427

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 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2017, 11:01:38 AM »
Hay Randy, "Another Load of Tripe"? Please go back again an read my comments with care this time! My statement said in brief that I don't give a darn about what sounds come out of the plane I'm judging neither do I care about it's color!!!!!!!! What counts is how well the plane executes the maneuvers Period! Your comments are completely out of line and abrasive!!

Tally HO!

Phil Spillman

Good, because they were meant to be abrasive Phil.  You should go back and read your post again and if you really didn't mean to say what you did then for heavens sake change it!  If you really meant the part in the 1st paragraph then it is indeed "TRIPE" and I stand by my condemnation of your attitude!

Phtttttt...

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2017, 11:27:31 AM »
There's a video on YouTube of an English guy running a tether flash-steam powered boat. I was impressed with how fast it was, and also by how quiet it was (not at all!).  LL~ Steve

   There are a few of those if you poke around a while. I have an old book from the 30's where they tell you, the average 10-year-old, how to build model boats. Including some sketches of a flash steam powerplant which they imply is something you could put together out in the barn if you advanced (that is, an advanced 10-year old). The entire thing tells you how much they expected a kid to do back in the 30s, like, effectively carve and entire 36" boat hull out of hardwood with a pocket knife and make your own steam engines. "You know, little Jimmy, be careful with the home-made blow-torch we just showed you how to build".

     Brett

Offline proparc

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2017, 10:12:14 AM »
It makes a HUGE difference. If it doesn't make any sound, you will get zero points. ;)
Milton "Proparc" Graham

Offline Target

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2017, 12:17:31 PM »
   There are a few of those if you poke around a while. I have an old book from the 30's where they tell you, the average 10-year-old, how to build model boats. Including some sketches of a flash steam powerplant which they imply is something you could put together out in the barn if you advanced (that is, an advanced 10-year old). The entire thing tells you how much they expected a kid to do back in the 30s, like, effectively carve and entire 36" boat hull out of hardwood with a pocket knife and make your own steam engines. "You know, little Jimmy, be careful with the home-made blow-torch we just showed you how to build".

     Brett

And now teens need a "safe zone" were they will be protected from harsh words.....
Ahhh, progress!
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2017, 05:59:53 PM »
I just am amazed by the content of this thread.  While we are asking questions why don't we ask this one.  Does the person holding the handle make a difference in your score?  Good Lord.....sometimes this stuff amazes me.

Mike

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2017, 06:21:58 PM »
Does the person holding the handle make a difference in your score? 
Mike

It depends on the color and the sound of the plane, Mike!
Regards,
Chris
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Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2017, 07:40:55 PM »
It depends on the color and the sound of the plane, Mike!

Of course it does Chris.  How silly of me. 

Mike

Offline Mike Keville

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2017, 09:17:31 PM »
.... This has to be the biggest load of tripe I've ever read even on this Forum. . .
Randy Cuberly
=============================================
Not quite.

The BIGGEST load of tripe on this forum was former AMA Pres. Bob Brown's statement that drones are the "future of model aviation".

...which pretty much killed my interest in the Academy of Multirotors and ARFs.

mk
FORMER member, "Academy of Multi-rotors & ARFs".

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2017, 09:57:47 AM »
Right Uncle Mike.  How can anybody call these multi rotors model airplanes?   I want a scale drawing of man carrying multi rotor. VD~
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2017, 03:27:22 PM »
A good judge  going  by the   RULEs  will  NOT let  sound influence  scores, that  said, Yes I have seen a few of them that did give scores high and low based partly on how the  "sound"  was.
Same is true for  color, and if you want to get into it, I have seen judges  go high because the plane being flown was a scale  looking plane.
and I have seen a  gorgeous scale plane get less points than it deserved, by a large margin???
 
Regards
Randy

Hi Randy,

Just curious how you would know that power train sound (and/or color scheme) was a factor that caused a judge to consciously score higher or lower on maneuvers?  Did they actually admit that they did so?  It wouldn't be accurate to state so based only on speculation as to the reasons.  I would, frankly, be amazed that a judge would ever admit--even to him/herself--that they allowed their assessment to be colored by factors other than provided for in the rule book.  I could, however, be naive in that regard.

If, with respect to color, we're talking about the famous (famous in large measure because of its unique nature that had jaws dropping) low appearance point score for that beautiful weathered finish navy semi-scale a couple decades ago I doubt that is germane to the question of colors in the other thread in which it seemed clear he was discussing "presentation" in the maneuvers.

Ted


Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2017, 04:21:58 PM »
While I don't believe that judges ever knowingly allow their assessment of maneuvers to be affected by power train decibel levels or "frequency (RPM)" I do feel that sound can reinforce and/or inform judges of visible errors and, thus, can influence scores in a positive sense.  Positive in that the aural information is a valid source of perception.

Except for the take-off, landing--and perhaps the wingover due to its long half lap intervals--all of our maneuvers  if performed accurately with modern potent power trains have rhythms associated with them due to their rulebook prescribed sizes and lengths of maneuver components: equal round loop segments and universally prescribed straight leg lengths connected by abrupt pitch changes.  The power train may well broadcast evidence of errors that will alert judges to their presence.  A set of round loops may sound: vroom, vrooooom, vrooooooom suggesting ever larger sizes.  Abrupt incorrect pitch changes such as in egg-shaped loops will have a distinctive aural signature as load increases on the power train.  Misshapen corners and different length straight segments between the corners of square loops, triangles and leg segments of square eights will have distinct sounds which result from "loading" the power train in tight corners and the length of the "loaded state" will broadcast different sizes of corners as well. Similarly, differences in the duration between loaded state corners will broadcast different lengths of straight legs.

I feel that the electric power trains are particularly vulnerable to these aural clues because a significant part of the sound generated in corners comes from the abrupt increase in load on the prop which gives each corner a distinct aural signature.   The aural "surge" from prop load in a tight corner is distinct in that it is the vast majority of the sound produced in flight.  "E" ships lack the aural obscuration provided by the comparatively consistent and loud exhaust note of I.C. engines; particularly with the predominant low pitch/high RPM systems dominating the I.C. cohort nowadays.

There is a good side to this phenomenon. While these aural clues can inform the judges they can also be utilized by pilots to help them evaluate the accuracy of their maneuvers in their own patterns.  If available, a flyer's coach should be asked to include these error hints in his/her repertoire for training purposes.  For such purposes the "E" flight crowd is at a distinct advantage over the I.C. guys for exactly the same reasons as it is a disadvantage during judged flights; the prominent nature of the loaded pulses makes it easier to assess the pilot's need for improvement.

Ted


Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2017, 07:39:07 PM »
Hi Randy,

Just curious how you would know that power train sound (and/or color scheme) was a factor that caused a judge to consciously score higher or lower on maneuvers?  Did they actually admit that they did so?  It wouldn't be accurate to state so based only on speculation as to the reasons.  I would, frankly, be amazed that a judge would ever admit--even to him/herself--that they allowed their assessment to be colored by factors other than provided for in the rule book.  I could, however, be naive in that regard.

If, with respect to color, we're talking about the famous (famous in large measure because of its unique nature that had jaws dropping) low appearance point score for that beautiful weathered finish navy semi-scale a couple decades ago I doubt that is germane to the question of colors in the other thread in which it seemed clear he was discussing "presentation" in the maneuvers.

Ted




Hi Ted   yes  they did admit  to me  that  about scoring both  higher and  lower  due to the  "sound" of the engine run, so  yes it did happen, more than one time.
In addition  to that I will tell you that I had not 1 but 2  NATs caliber judges, who have both judged the NATs , tell me they can judge a maneuver by the sound and they don't even have to look at it

And on the  other part the question asked about color scheme, and  YES  he  did  LOOSE  points (AP judging is also a presentation)  because of his  color scheme,   so  what I wrote  was germane  to the topic,  and it is my  "opinion" that any judge that gave that plane a single digit score , could well carry that onto the flying circle... not that it happened but it could have.
I also was told my a many time , NATs judge ,that  he had a hard time giving RED airplanes higher scores because he thought that was a poor scheme to paint a plane all RED

Sorry  if  you thought  not , I interpreted  losing points as losing points

In closing as I said none of this should ever happen by a judge either in sound or color, but it has and it does ! 
I also agree with Brett that it is a HUGE waste of time and energy in trying to focus on either  sound or color scheme, you run into trying to  first imagine if it is happening, then if so, you have to start reading minds to find out just which  "personal" bias  someone has . 
It is best to pick an excellent design to build,  BUILD it light , stiff and straight , paint it with none or minimal flaws,  then get lots of practice with a good coach.  There are  FAR more points  there . 


Regards
Randy
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:01:56 PM by RandySmith »

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2017, 08:06:49 PM »
Ted

None of this is much different than a very experienced judge  saying he can  score your "piped" plane by watching  the   line of smoke it leaves right behind that airplane.

Randy

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2017, 09:52:48 PM »

Hi Ted   yes  they did admit  to me  that  about scoring both  higher and  lower  due to the  "sound" of the engine run, so  yes it did happen, more than one time.
In addition  to that I will tell you that I had not 1 but 2  NATs caliber judges, who have both judged the NATs , tell me they can judge a maneuver by the sound and they don't even have to look at it

And on the  other part the question asked about color scheme, and  YES  he  did  LOOSE  points (AP judging is also a presentation)  because of his  color scheme,   so  what I wrote  was germane  to the topic,  and it is my  "opinion" that any judge that gave that plane a single digit score , could well carry that onto the flying circle... not that it happened but it could have.
I also was told my a many time , NATs judge ,that  he had a hard time giving RED airplanes higher scores because he thought that was a poor scheme to paint a plane all RED

Sorry  if  you thought  not , I interpreted  losing points as losing points

In closing as I said none of this should ever happen by a judge either in sound or color, but it has and it does ! 
I also agree with Brett that it is a HUGE waste of time and energy in trying to focus on either  sound or color scheme, you run into trying to  first imagine if it is happening, then if so, you have to start reading minds to find out just which  "personal" bias  someone has . 
It is best to pick an excellent design to build,  BUILD it light , stiff and straight , paint it with none or minimal flaws,  then get lots of practice with a good coach.  There are  FAR more points  there . 


Regards
Randy

Randy,
I'm amazed that a judge remotely familiar with the event and the rule book would willfully tell anyone that he bases a score on anything other than his observations of the maneuvers themselves. 

I, again, feel that observations on the accuracy of the maneuvers can be informed by both sight and sound...not whether the sound is objectionable to him/her personally but by using sounds relevant to motion as detailed in my second post.  IOW, I've no objection to the use of both senses as real time assessment tools as to the accuracy of the tricks presented as both perceive reality as to that accuracy.  On the other hand I would never, for instance, suggest that smell or touch would be senses relevant to such an assessment--for obvious reasons.

My point was solely that a judge should never use prejudice as to his like or dislike of a color or a powerplant sound to artificially be used to enhance or degrade his legitimate perception of the maneuvers he is charge with assessing.  Any judge that would openly suggest doing so was appropriate in his view has no business judging.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Does engine sound make a difference in your scores?
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2017, 10:09:41 PM »
p.s.  Re appearance points.  Not sure I can agree totally with you.  Appearance (as opposed to accuracy with respect to defined/measurable criteria) will always include a degree of personal preference.  In the unique case of the semi-scale we both referenced the impact of preference clearly exceeded what most would call acceptable but, nonetheless, appearance judges are asked to "grade" the beauty of the airplane which will always be primarily a subjective decision informed by personal preference.  IOW, the value isn't determined by accuracy (like math) but by personal preference.  i.e. some like full bodied bodacious blonds and others would score long lithesome, dark eyed brunettes as superior in appearance.  Alas, that assessment--lacking specific criteria such as used in the ancient 40 point/four class system--is more or less the job description of an appearance point judge.

The almost singular aberration of the semi-scale ship we cite any time this sort of subject arises is pretty much proof positive (IMHO) that, by and large, the historical degree of personal preference influence is so modest as to almost never come into question...unlike scores for the tricks.

Interesting discussion, Randy.  Hope this finds you well.

Ted


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