News:


  • March 28, 2024, 03:10:04 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Cox PT 19 History?  (Read 33982 times)

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Cox PT 19 History?
« on: June 23, 2009, 07:12:15 PM »
I'm new to the board and to CL. Had a PT 19 when I was 8 years old in 1970. Flew it once, crashed it after half a lap. Never flew again... until now.

Saw the Hangar 9 PT 19 in the local hobby shop, which brought back memories of the old Cox PTs. One thing led to another. Got on Ebay, bought two PTs, one to fly, another to display.

Flew them late last week and got through consecutive flights --- takeoffs and landings --- without a crash -- redemption nearly 40 years later. It was a blast. Can't wait to fly again and get good enough to fly the H9 PT.

Question: Who at Cox designed the PT 19? What year did it come out? Any other assorted trivia would be helpful to know. Guess you could say the PTs have a special place in my heart.

I'd kill to have the blue wings/yellow body; or the red and white version.

Mike

Offline Mack Davis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 09:01:05 PM »
I did the same thing. Flew the Cox PT-19 back in the late 60's. I went in a hobby shop several months ago and saw the Hanger 9 PT-19 and I have been flying it ever since. It has a different engine on it now and it is on it's 3rd gas tank. It has had a couple of repairs but it still flies great. One of my fellow fliers put it through the paces a couple of times and it is capable of doing nearly anything.
 

mack

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 09:09:16 PM »
Mack: That's good to hear about the Hangar 9 PT. When I get up to speed, I plan on getting one.

Mike

Offline Scott Hartford

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 09:39:48 PM »
They are designed to get you up to speed easier. Try one, it is surely easier to fly than the Cox. H^^

Offline Mack Davis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 07:06:21 AM »
They are designed to get you up to speed easier. Try one, it is surely easier to fly than the Cox. H^^

That is for sure. I could keep the Cox in the air until the tank ran out but it was a lot of work. The Hanger 9 flies so well it is a pleasure.

Mike: You will definitely enjoy the Hanger 9 PT-19 and I highly recommend it. It is also distinctive looking and everyone recognizes it.

Mack

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 09:14:04 AM »
Mack: 'That merely confirms what I thought, that the Hangar 9 is the next step for me.

 How forgiving is it in terms of crashes? Durable? Or not? The one good thing with the Cox's is that you can't hardly damage them on grass.

Mike 

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 11:16:44 AM »
Ty: Not sure I can sneak back to back H-9  PTs past my wife:) Probably will have to make do with one initially.

You have to remember I just bought  few of the old PTs, plus assorted Cox memorobilia off Ebay. The "this stuff is cheap" excuse only works so long.


... My building skills are non-existent. I'll eventually get it with practice and LOT's of patience.

I'll work on flying the old Cox some more. Need to get out another time or two with it.

... Hopefully, Larry will see this thread and elaborate on the history of the Cox PT 19, etc. That would be interesting.

Mike

Offline Mack Davis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 02:32:07 PM »
Mike: I bought the Hanger 9 PT-19 with the Evo 36 engine. It was almost ready to fly and was very easy to get ready. So far the only thing I have done is hit the ground at about a 25-30 degree angle coming out of a wing over. When it hit the ground, it broke the propeller off and the plane bounced back in the air and made another almost full lap before hitting again. It broke one of the landing gear mounts completely loose and bent the other landing gear back. I was able to repair it by cutting away part of the covering and epoxing the mount back in and doing some other repair work. It seems to be very sturdy.

I just started flying again since the 60's and I have the good fortune to fly with some world class fliers. One of them has flown the PT-19 a couple of times and is able to do pretty much anything he wants with it. We had trouble keeping the Evo engine from leaning out during flight and ended up putting a Magnum 36 on it. It is perfect with the Magnum engine. We ended up replacing the gas tank a couple of times too. The only other things I have had to do was pin the horizontal stab after it came apart while the other person was flying and we had to add nose weight.

You will enjoy it very much.
Mack


Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 04:38:35 PM »
Question: Who at Cox designed the PT 19? What year did it come out? Any other assorted trivia would be helpful to know. Guess you could say the PTs have a special place in my heart.

Mike

Mike, check here:     http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm    

You will probably find the whole site interesting but what you specificly want is in the "models database" tab.

George


Edit: I think it has some inaccuracies in that it lists the 1960 version as using the 191-1 product engine. I think it actually used the Babe Bee.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 04:57:47 PM by George Bain »
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 07:29:30 PM »
George: I've seen the site. It's fantastic. I know there's some old Cox diehards. I was hoping some of them would have some insight how the PT came about, etc.

Mack: H-9 PT sounds pretty durable. It'll need to be with me at the helm.

Mike

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 09:10:31 PM »
I think the PT 19 was available at different times with at least three styles of the 049. The first without doubt is the Babe Bee. Next (unless there are others) was the 190 series "postage stamp" product engine and in its final form used the Sure Start product engine.

By the way I love topics like this!

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Warren Leadbeatter

  • AUS-14782
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • My Home Page
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2009, 07:06:34 AM »
The 1st version of the PT19 used the #350 Babe Bee engine and was released in 1960. Later variants used the #191-5 product engine and then even later the Sure Start engine. The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.

Warren Leadbeatter
Port Stephens, Australia
AUS-14782

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2009, 08:05:18 AM »
For those who have finished perusing the other site, here is another one on Wikipedia. Warren, I believe you are the person we need to pay homage to for this excellent site:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox_Model_Engines

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2009, 08:47:31 AM »
I am glad to hear who it was originally designed the PT-19!  I had a hand in updating it to the "Product Engine" and the integrated windshields and pilots to reduce weight and improve crash resistance (The old cockpit unit was beautiful, but heavy and fragile).  At the same time, I improved the stability and did some strengthening here and there.  The last version was brought back by Mike Pratt who oversaw re-tooling the design and added tipweight.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Bill Turner

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 44
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 01:39:16 AM »
I loved my PT-19.  Yellow and blue and at one time I think I had four or five of them.  I learned to fly better after learning on one of the testors rocks on a string, and taught others how to fly using this model.

I found if you really leaned the engine out, and got a good amount of height and dived the model so it went very fast, you could actually get it to do a sort of loop.  Kind of eliptical, but it would do it.  Wouldn't fly inverted though.  Learned that later flying something with a black widow.

Always popular at parties; I usually had one plane or another in the car, and after a few adult beverages, was persuaded to get it out and fly it for everybody.  Them beverages made my center of the circle get bigger and bigger and I flew my loop and the down leg went right into a neighbor's okra patch.  The okra and plane both survived the incident.  I then put the model away as to not hurt it.  Stupid me I wasn't worried about hitting anyone, or anything, just the model.

I learned more better after that.

Enjoy the plane and after a while, perhaps you'll move to a larger plane.  They are easier to fly, and do more than get you dizzy.
Best to you in the future with all your modeling adventures.

Bill
Bill Turner

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2009, 07:23:54 PM »
Guys, very informative stuff.

Mike

Offline Garf

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1817
    • Hangar Flying
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2009, 08:42:52 PM »
This is the result of a yard dart maneuver I did with mine.

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 09:12:13 PM »
Dang, that fuselage sure did get thinner in the crash, and the engine got larger too, must have flattened out or something.....
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2009, 12:13:55 PM »
Hello Everyone,

I got the bug for PT-19 trainers during Christmas in 1970. My Father and Uncle received a PT-19 each as a gift from my grandparents that year. I was 5 and was more than a little unhappy that I didn’t get an Airplane.  Dad flew his twice if you can call it that. He made it off the ground straight up and back into the ground. The 2nd event was after much urging from me and a trip by my mother to purchase a new fuselage and I think.. Wing. I visited by the baseball diamond where this 2nd crash happened last week. 36  or so years later. I think I need to go fly mine there just settle the score if you will.

I bought a PT-19 in the late 70’s and surprisingly enough flew it successfully and often. I had a blast. Dad was always surprised that it came home intact. Somewhere along the lines this all faded and it was sold at a garage sale or something. I think Dads went the same way.

Last year I got the control line bug. I bought a PT-19 at the flea market for 12.50 in the original box.  This was a 1962 plane and one I had not seen before. I started working to find these and now have a “sort of” collection with a 5th version as I call it that I am flying currently. I am going to put together an early version from all the spare parts to fly something with the Baby Bee.

I bought Dad an unflown (4th version)  1974 plane last year and gave it to him for Christmas last year. My son who I plan on teaching to fly this weekend received a 6th version although its really not the same plane anymore.

Below is what I know so far excluding anything like Red/White or muffled versions. It is interesting when you are making sure a particular plane has all the correct period parts how much they changed.  Some of the information below may be incorrect but I have joined this blog as it looks like the correct group of folks are here to further clarify the details. I can shoot photos of anything I have to make comparisons. Perhaps we can also do some trading of sought after items back and forth to complete these little gems.

Here is what I have compiled so far.  Mark

1st version - 1960-1965

Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light.
Note: The earliest version of Fuse in 1960-61 has far less panel line detail present. The initial lines are there but that is it.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. They were not painted and were injected in the color opposite the fuselage.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded.
Color: The yellow was a more Canary Yellow and the blue has a grayness.

2nd version – 1966-1970
Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank for early portion of the run. Toward the end this etching was not on the tank.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage.  Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light. Panel and rivet detail continued from the 62 and on version. Toward the end of the run for this model the area around the motor may be trimmed away more to alleviate warping from exhaust.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted but with with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded.
Color: The yellow changed and was a more standard and darker or School Bus yellow and the blue changed to a lighter Blue.

3rd version – 1970-1973
Motor –Baby Bee with integral tank as on earlier versions.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage.  Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Same but with a cross bar added to join the left and right sides in front of the motor.  Also the opening for the motor is smaller if looking at it from the top.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. Painted  with the color of the plastic that they were molded from left exposed as the color of the shirt they were wearing. One guy in a Blue shirt and the other in Yellow per plane.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded.
Wing- Rubber band posts are reinforced somewhere during this run.
Color: Same as version 2

4th version – 1974-Motor –Initial version had Baby Bee but changed to a motor with a plastic back plate. Primarily In Red plastic
Firewall – Tank mounted motor became unit with a plastic back plate and required a different and deeper firewall to make up the difference in length.  Yellow in color. May be a blue. Not sure but all eventually became black.
Fuselage – Initial units had no integrated tank for Baby Bee but changed to integral tank.  Initial filler and overflow nipples were the same size in front of the windshield and later changed to 1 nipple with a larger overflow and floating valve out of black plastic. Side lugs were added for to strap rubber bands under the wing from front to back.
Tank: Molded in plastic matching the fuselage with an offset triangular shape to drain fuel on the right side and keep motor fed using centrifugal force.
Pilots /Windshields – Assembled a complete and separate interior that included the windshields. Mounted from inside on two posts that were mushroomed with heat to keep this in place. Heads were larger and shirts on the pilots were orange.  This was a more complete pilot with full torso. Instruments are a sticker on the dash.
Elevator – 2nd position and slower adjustment for pushrod added.  This may have been added during the end of the 3rd version.
Color: Blue became darker.

5th version – Early 80’s
Motor – Motor with a plastic back plate.
Firewall – Deeper firewall continues to make up the difference in length from the Baby Bee.  Black in color.
Tank: Molded in clear/white plastic much like a film canister and now round in shape with an offset single nipple drain. No longer triangular in shape and motor can starve during nose up situations.
Fuselage – Completely different fuselage. Rivit detail and lines have changed although it looks traditional. Windshields are only a very vertical frame and Pilots shoulders are formed into the back of the cockpit. Big Dudley Do-right heads that are heat welded in place from below. The heads nearly always break off. Overall a thicker and more durable fuselage.
Color: Same Darker Blue and the yellow is Schoolbus or Safety yellow.
Personal note:  Controls – Had to modify up down controls by changing the length of the pushrod and trimming the bellcrank (clearance) to get the same movement as in earlier PT-19s. Had “no” down initially.

6th version – Early 90’s
Motor –Cox Sure Start. 
Firewall – Deeper firewall but this version is different to clear the snorkel on the Sure Start motor and the wire on the landing gear is formed differently.
Tank: Round tank continues. Does not stay attached to the fuselage. Pops off easily.
Fuselage – Again different with increasingly cruder detailing. Opening for the Bellcrank changed with rounded windows for strength. Pilots are molded in as well on this version but even a step cruder on the detail
Wing- Much thinner and very flexible with a Tip weight. 
Rudder: Will not transfer to older PTs and does not locate the same.
Color: A little darker blue and schoolbus yellow continues 

Offline Dave Gardner

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • AMA 717
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2009, 07:57:23 PM »
 The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.


[/quote]

Is this THE Ralph Ray, of S. California free flight fame?  If so, he's alive and well in Boulevard, CA (no, I had never heard of it either!).

Ralph and I went to the same high school in Indianapolis in the early 50's, then lost touch and moved to California at slightly different times and places, in the late 50's/early 60's.  We reconnected at the swap meet at the AMA Convention in Ontario a few years ago!.........50 years later!

Dave Gardner
Dave G.

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9920
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2009, 08:21:50 PM »
Dave...you're thinking of Ralph Prey...the FF Ace. I think he was an FAA guy.

BEFORE the PT-19, Cox had a profile 1/2a trainer that had an undercambered wing and was rubber banded together. A friend got one for Christmas ('61 I think), and I know we flew that in the "Field House" in Pullman. I don't recall any parental units being present. I flew it and it flew pretty well, and I think I got it in the air and had him flying it alright. It seems like it was blue & yellow, but don't recall if it tried to look like a PT-19 or not.

Later, another friend got a Cox P-40, and I flew that someplace...seems like it was their front yard. It was a handful, but it did fly, on quite short lines. Not very well, and with longer lines, it wouldn't have. Of the two, the profile was the one that coulda helped a lot of kids fly CL. The P-40 did us no favors!   R%%%% Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Frank Sheridan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2009, 09:04:21 PM »
I seem to remember seeing a profile Cox plane in of all places, the Encyclopedia Brittannica at my elementary school library in Lake Charles, La. I think it was under "Model airplanes". The encyclopedias were probably ten years old at the time. This would have been around 1970. I was 11 at the time. I think it resembled a PT-19, but I could be mistaken.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2009, 07:17:28 AM »
I vaguely remember the Profile Cox and it did resemble the PT-19.  The hobby shop had one and before I could get enough coins together it sold.  Never seen another one.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline GGeezer

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 241
    • Gizmogeezer Products
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2009, 10:54:09 AM »
If memory serves me, the Profile Trainer had an adjustable motor mount. For training, you would crank in down thrust. This would cause the plane to have to fly with a higher angle of attach thus slowing the flight and making the plane more docile and forgiving. After getting the hang of things, you would take out the down thrust and the plane would fly more like a controliner than a free flight model.
Ahhh! Those were the days...... Orv.

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2009, 11:30:57 AM »
Wow Orv! You have a good memory! I never knew this but by enlarging the picture some I could see the pivot screw (left inside circle), adjustment screw, the indicating arrow (these on the Mount) and three adjustable positions marked on the fuse.

I would have had no idea if you had not mentioned it. Thanks for some good info.

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9920
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2009, 07:49:05 PM »
That's the one! It flew ok. I'll pay MSRP ($8) for the first one offered in like new condition, plus shipping.  LL~ Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2009, 08:51:27 AM »
Ty,  I was just getting ready for my Senior year in high school.  Just had our homecoming last month with the 50 year group as homecoing is on the odd years.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2009, 07:53:54 PM »
Geez, you guys are old farts. I didn't graduate until 1960!  ;D

Oh yes, I may still have one of those Cox trainers out in the garage...in pieces. I'll check tomorrow.

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2009, 08:53:03 PM »
I think the profile model was the TD-4, and the most gawdawful model I ever flew!  I got about half a lap, and happened to give some down control; the wings flexed down and smashed the model to bits.  Mind you, I could fly the whole pattern at this point, and it wasn't my model.  Talk about red face????  HB~>
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2009, 06:41:06 AM »
Ty and George,  graduating class of 1960 of 27 students at Humansville High School about halfway between Osceola and Bolivar Missouri.  By then I was flying a T-Square with the K&B Green head .35.   DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2009, 09:25:03 PM »
Mark, great descriptions of the past PTs. Lot's of detail I wouldn't have known or even recognized.

FWIW, I just nailed down and am in the process of buying a red and white PT from the late 60s. They're rare and the guy that I'm getting it from, I think, found me through this site/message board.

Mike

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2009, 10:25:28 AM »
Hi Mike,

Glad you found the information helpful. I will be working to fill in the gaps and or make corrections as I know more. I am sure there are folks here that could help with that as well on this board.

You will have to post some pics of your QZ PT when you get it!

I have been flying a recent production version as late as last week. I had some issues with the fuse melting around the motor area and a cold flow joint during the injection molding on the left side of the nose. I have put a patch on the inside out of a junk fuse I was saving back for the Blue plastic. It works great and the plastic welding was done in a way that it looks like a factory deal.  I will be working to add some different wheels and a tail wheel as well. At some point I would like to come up with some vintage pilots to put in this one as the heads wont stay on the Dudley Do-Rights. An exhaust deflector is planned as well to kick the exhaust out and up over the cowl out of spun aluminum. This newer motor has never ran as well as the older ones that I have so there may be a motor swap. In Colorado as the Air is thinner.... it really has to run well to keep the lines tight during a flight.

While working on the plane above I put together a group of parts from what started out as a 1962 plane. I have shelf queens already so this one will be a flyer. These were lighter planes so it should fly much better. I will be reinforcing some areas so that it lasts but this will all be hidden so that it doesnt show. I will also be updating the gear on this plane but with vintage Perfect or Veco wheels. This particular plane will fly with the Original Baby Bee that has almost no time on it.

Take Care and looking forward to hearing from others that may have this PT 19 Fetish. Or. those that have some parts they may want to get rid of .. ;D

Mark

Offline Pinecone

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 235
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2009, 11:41:50 AM »
Just had to add my PT-19 story.

I had one in 1967.  So second generation from what has been posted.  I know it had a Baby Bee because I still have the engine.  The engine later went on a Goldberg Trainer, the one with the two piece firewall that rubber banded together, as the engine is still mounted on a firewall piece.  I think it also served on a Goldberg Lil' Satan for a while.

But I think I "flew" the PT-19 a couple of times.  It was retired when one of the tabs broke off the wing that held the end of the rubber band.  Damage from one of my "landings" with it.  We tried to glue it back on, but wasn't able to get it to hold well enough to take the rubber band pressure.

Very fond memories of that plane.
Terry Carraway
AMA 47402

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 02:01:04 PM »
...I think it also served on a Goldberg Lil' Satan for a while.


Not to hijack but a quick Lil' Satan story: Newly married (1967), wife worked days, I worked nights, so I built a Lil' Satan for something to do during the days. Powered by Babe Bee, just got it finished and decided to make sure the engine still ran. Fired it up and very quickly became surrounded by a couple of neighborhood kids.

One boy was VERY interested in the plane. After he promised me that he would fly it, I gave it to him. We moved shortly after that so I never saw him fly it.

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Frank Sheridan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 03:52:14 PM »
My favorite Cox PT-19 story is when the dreaded "invisible fuel fire" melted a plane before our very eyes!  Man, those little fire episodes were sneaky! I also remember that you could take a straight pin in a pair of pliers and melt another hole in the elevator control horn for more throw, and by opening the crossover hole in the rudder, you could get a PT to do a decent loop - as long as the engine was screaming its heart out.

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 04:57:03 PM »
I do love the history and stories of these dear planes.
Maybe there could be threads of others like the Miss America, Stuka, P-40 and even other brands like the Firebaby or Wen Mac planes. Just an idea.

The only plastic RTF I ever had was one of the old Wen Mac Chromed P-39 plane. A used one at that.

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2009, 05:30:24 PM »
Attached (I hope) are pics of the Red and White PT.

Mike

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2009, 07:30:45 AM »
Attached (I hope) are pics of the Red and White PT.

Mike

Mike, looks like it is sporting a QZ .049, which is a Babe Bee with an "adjustable" muffler.

Here are some "Product Engine" backplates. A couple of the engines are modified.

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2009, 09:31:35 PM »
George: Thanks for the photo. Can't wait until I get the plane. Should be next week.

Hey, anyone with a reverse blue/yellow PT, please let me know: Mhodge7021@aol.com. That's the plane I'm currently gunning for. Lost out on one on ebay this past weekend. Tied for the high bid, but got beat out because I bid later than the winner.

... Thought I was being cute by pulling the trigger at the last second (literally). I promised myself I would not take this sport competitively and all it took was a little time on ebay for that goal to be ruined:)

Mike

Offline Warren Leadbeatter

  • AUS-14782
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • My Home Page
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2009, 06:39:13 AM »
The PT19 was designed by Ralph Ray, who performed demonstration flights in the Disneyland Flight Circle.

Is this THE Ralph Ray, of S. California free flight fame?  If so, he's alive and well in Boulevard, CA (no, I had never heard of it either!).

Ralph and I went to the same high school in Indianapolis in the early 50's, then lost touch and moved to California at slightly different times and places, in the late 50's/early 60's.  We reconnected at the swap meet at the AMA Convention in Ontario a few years ago!.........50 years later!

Dave Gardner

It could well be I guess.  It would be great if we could contact him eh.  I have been conversing with Lee Heinly  who flew Cox's at the Cox Disney Flight Circle between June 1960 and Sept 1965.  Lee does not dispute that Ralph Ray designed the PT-19 and says that when he was there, Ralph worked in in the model shop at the plant (on Poinsettia Street in Santa Ana, Calif).  Lee said that he learned to fly on the PT-19.

I love this nostalgia stuff.
 
Warren Leadbeatter
Port Stephens, Australia
AUS-14782

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2009, 11:32:21 AM »
It could well be I guess.  It would be great if we could contact him eh.  I have been conversing with Lee Heinly  who flew Cox's at the Cox Disney Flight Circle between June 1960 and Sept 1965.  Lee does not dispute that Ralph Ray designed the PT-19 and says that when he was there, Ralph worked in in the model shop at the plant (on Poinsettia Street in Santa Ana, Calif).  Lee said that he learned to fly on the PT-19.

I love this nostalgia stuff.
 

What would really be cool would be pictures of the Disney Flight circle. Those would be great fun to see!

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2009, 01:06:35 PM »
Check with Bart Klapinski, he flew demos there for Cox.
Don

Offline dale gleason

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 842
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2009, 01:58:26 PM »
You take two Cox PT19 wings and glue them together to form a symetrical airfoil. Now you've got something! Then take it out to the flying field to impress your flying pals. That's what a big tall fella did. It would fly inverted with ease if it was launched inverted. Not all ideas are great ones, almost all of this big tall fella's are, but this one went in the trash can.      dg (not a big tall fella)

Offline dave siegler

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1128
  • sport flier
    • Circlemasters Flying club
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2009, 02:11:37 PM »
What would really be cool would be pictures of the Disney Flight circle. Those would be great fun to see!

Robert

http://www.dldhistory.com/2k9attract.asp?Page=3&Ident=528&Filter=Onstage

there is some video up there sumwherer too. 
Dave Siegler
NE9N extra class
AMA 720731
EAA 1231299 UAS Certificate Number FA39HY9ML7  Member of the Milwaukee Circlemasters. A Gold Leader Club for over 25 years!  http://www.circlemasters.com/

Offline Mike Greb

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2009, 04:25:46 PM »
I replaced the wimpy .049 on one of mine with a FOX 15.  Much faster.   On dacron lines.

Offline Scott Hartford

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2009, 07:46:21 PM »
So that's why you fly at Mach 3 now? LL~

Offline Warren Leadbeatter

  • AUS-14782
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • My Home Page
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2009, 01:16:21 AM »
What would really be cool would be pictures of the Disney Flight circle. Those would be great fun to see!

Robert


Here you go...  http://davelandweb.com/tomorrowland/flightcircle.html
Warren Leadbeatter
Port Stephens, Australia
AUS-14782

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2009, 09:01:36 AM »
...I have been conversing with Lee Heinly  who flew Cox's at the Cox Disney Flight Circle between June 1960 and Sept 1965...

I saw some of those flights in early 1961 as a young sailor just out of boot camp at San Diego. Went to LA for the weekend while waiting for orders.

I remember having a definite yearning to "get in a few flights".  ;D   ...even in my dress blues!

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2009, 09:20:18 AM »
Wow!  Great photos and history. I have a permagrin right now!

Mark

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2009, 09:48:39 AM »
That's the stuff! Thanks for posting the link!

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2009, 07:33:36 AM »
Hello Everyone,

Flew my PT 5th version this past week and am getting ready to head to the park in a little bit to do the same again today. I have increased the line length to a little more than 30' and have silver soldered new axles to the landing gear and installed slightly larger foam tires on nylon wheels. I am hoping that these absorb a little of the shock while I work out my landing skills. This past week I found that they make no difference in the grass and I still get a "yard sale" situation on landing. Our currently selected flying area has a "pole vaulting pad covered in outdoor carpeting that we take off and land from situated in the middle of grass. This was a nice discovery!

The motor on these more recent versions is equiped with a reverse prop and rotates clockwise. (if facing the prop...towards the inside of the flying circle) All the previous PTs had a normal prop that rotated towards the outside of the circle. I will be testing both directions today to see if it makes a difference as I immediatly changed it to the old style and have only flown it that way.

In the kitchen sink I have a 1st version 1965 plane (yellow/blue..sorry Mike)soaking in warm soapy water to work off the varnish and old rubber bands. This works quite well if your patient. I push the stuff around with toothpicks in the hard to reach or stubborn areas and chase the rest with a toothbrush. The motor is already soaking in WD-40 and I should have it all cleaned up soon. This one will be a shelf queen and will look nicely next to the blue yellow version I have from 1963. Both have their boxes.

I am also currently working on a 1962 (yellow/blue) that will be a flyer. Probably the lowest flight time of the lot. This one however had a badly damaged box. I swapped its wings and elevator to the 1965 as they were in better condition and had no bleached spots. These planes are lighter than the later versions and I think there will be a big difference in how it flys. I will keep practicing on the late model plane before I fly this one. ;)

Mark



Recap on the details of the PT versions as I know them so far.
1st version - 1960-1965
Motor –Baby Bee with Thimble Drome etched into the aluminum tank.
Firewall – Tank mounted motor and opposite the color of the fuselage. Tab on the back to indicate the angle of the motor. Beginner-Advanced.
Fuselage – Open at the front to allow motor to tip out during crash. No reinforced areas and very thin and light.
Note: The earliest version of Fuse in 1960-61 has far less panel line detail present. The initial lines are there but that is it.
Pilots - assembled from 2 pieces. Left and Right halves with mounting tabs on the shoulders. They were not painted and were injected in the color opposite the fuselage.
Windshields – separate units attached to the top of the fuselage with two tabs to locate. Plastic welded.
Color: The yellow was a more Canary Yellow and the blue has a grayness.

5th version – Early 80’s
Motor – Motor with a plastic back plate.
Firewall – Deeper firewall continues to make up the difference in length from the Baby Bee.  Black in color.
Tank: Molded in clear/white plastic much like a film canister and now round in shape with an offset single nipple drain. No longer triangular in shape and motor can starve during nose up situations.
Fuselage – Completely different fuselage. Rivit detail and lines have changed although it looks traditional. Windshields are only a very vertical frame and Pilots shoulders are formed into the back of the cockpit. Big Dudley Do-right heads that are heat welded in place from below. The heads nearly always break off. Overall a thicker and more durable fuselage.
Color: Same Darker Blue and the yellow is Schoolbus or Safety yellow.
Personal note:  Controls – Had to modify up down controls by changing the length of the pushrod and trimming the bellcrank (clearance) to get the same movement as in earlier PT-19s. Had “no” down initially.


Offline Steve Scott

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 673
  • Terrorizing earthworms since '65
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2009, 08:19:05 AM »
Hello Everyone,

I got the bug for PT-19 trainers during Christmas in 1970. My Father and Uncle received a PT-19 each as a gift from my grandparents that year.

Pretty much parallels my early experience except we had just PCS'd to Clark AB in the Philippines in 1964 and my parents gave me that version of the PT-19 with full Babe Bee engine but funky reversed color scheme of yellow fuselage/rudder and blue wings/stab.  My uncle shipped over a Sterling Ringmaster kit and McCoy .35 redhead.

Learned to takeoff ROG, fly the tank out and land with the PT-19.  It was definitely a challenge just keeping it out on the end of the lines in any kind of breeze but my 13 year old reflexes adapted quickly.

I got the Ringmaster built and flew it successfully.  Since then, I never had a desire to go back to the plastic ½A RTF toys.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2009, 10:11:42 AM »
Update: 

Flew the "5th Version" again on Saturday. I am trying a new motor in it as my old PT I flew as a kid always ran harder. Both of these motors have an issue with "hiccups" during the run and or sometimes running well till you make the walk to the handle for take off. At one point the engine just stopped during flight.(Going to make sure everything is clean for this particular prob) The PT I ran as a kid had what appears to be the same basic product engine but had a copper reed instead of the plastic one. This product engine(pre Sure Start) has a plastic reed and that gasket/reed retainer dealio. The tank is also a round clear milky plastic that I am not really sure directs the fuel like it should either. Again.. the older PT with plastic tank had a triangular base on it that would have forced a better feed of fuel.

Anyone have any thoughts, suggestions or experiences on any of this. At this point I dont trust the plastic reed to do the job of the metal ones or the tank situ to deliver the fuel consistantly.

Overall had 3 good flights with a short 4th.

Mark

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2009, 08:38:25 PM »
Mark: I've had some of the same problems and I think it's the same version of the PT.

One footnote, though: Because I'm just starting out, I'm no expert at tuning the engine and could be running it too lean. I'll find someone who knows what they're doing and report back.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2009, 10:28:54 PM »
Hey Mike,

I have found an older version of the motor that would be the same as I would have flown as a kid. This would be with the Red firewall. I have also run accross some of the Red firewalls that have the original Copper reed. I am going to try them both to see how all that works. At some point I will probably go ahead and custom build a brass tank as well.

I know some folks have to be asking.. why spent so much time developing something when you can just build a plane out of wood. LOL  Well I am doing some of those too.  ;D

Mark

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2009, 11:05:08 PM »
The plastic reeds are pretty worthless after a few runs, they warp with the residual engine heat after running.  Get some of the old bronze reeds or the new stainless ones.

There is a tab on the fuselage that sets between a couple of ears on the Polyethelene tank to keep the fuel pickup in the correct position.  Check it out.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Warren Leadbeatter

  • AUS-14782
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • My Home Page
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2009, 02:22:49 AM »
Looking for new Cox Engines or Parts?   Apparently, earlier this year (in February 2009) Estes sold their remaining Cox stock to eBay seller XENALOOK  - Bernie and Zena someone from Canada.  They also have a website that they recently launched http://coxengines.ca  This is claimed to be the last of the original Cox stock.

Cheers
Warren Leadbeatter
Port Stephens, Australia
AUS-14782

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2009, 05:29:18 AM »
Larry: My PT fuselage has taken a beating as I learn to fly CL. I'll check the fuel position. If I think it's to the point, where I can't make it work, I'll retire it and go to PT #2:). I pretty much knew I'd have to sacrifice the first plane:)

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2009, 07:57:27 AM »
Larry, have you tried the Teflon reeds from Davis Diesel?  They seem to work for me in Mouse Racing.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2009, 09:25:12 AM »
Thanks Larry I will try the stainless. (I have read that all over the web this past week! Larry likes the Stainless Reeds!) I always liked the copper in the past. Going to set up a test motor for this.

Tank.. yes its between the tabs and perhaps this isnt my issue. I will try the reed first.

Mark


Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #60 on: July 27, 2009, 09:43:14 PM »
Photos of flying the PT-19 this past Sunday. This is version #5 of this model. I lost power on my final flight (Working though power issues) and had a hard landing busting up the Fuse. I have it plastic welded back together and will continue to use it but am looking for a new one.

Tried the Stainless reed and could not get the motor to start without a starter. Seemed to run okay but did have a flutter. Will continue to do testing for consistant power to make this thing a real flyer. At this point its still fun and I am still learning. Lines are around 33' at this time.

Mark

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2009, 10:06:59 PM »
More Flight Photos to share from Sunday.   Mark

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2009, 05:46:30 PM »
Are the reeds interchangeable between the old wire reed retainer and the later types?

Also, are the reeds the same thickness?
 
George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #63 on: July 28, 2009, 09:00:42 PM »
Enjoyed the photos.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #64 on: July 28, 2009, 10:57:48 PM »
Mike, Your turn next for some photos! 

George, The reeds should be interchangeable. I have not put the calipers on them yet.  Mark

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2009, 10:03:33 AM »
I have tried the Teflon reeds, and the ones I had  were slightly curved and wouldn't seal.  Perhaps they would flatten out with use, but I wasn't that interested in them.

So far as I know, all reeds should work with all engines. (except the old Space Bug/Thermal Hopper design)
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline George

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1468
  • Love people, Use things.
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2009, 06:55:39 PM »
So far as I know, all reeds should work with all engines. (except the old Space Bug/Thermal Hopper design)

Right. Here's a Space Bug pic:

George
George Bain
AMA 23454

Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2009, 07:16:46 PM »
Cool! Space bug not high on my priority list but someday hope to have one.

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2009, 02:58:52 PM »
Here is a Quote that I pulled from another forum.

Regarding the repair of cracked up plastic CL planes, my recollection is that a cracked or broken plastic part usually had to be replaced. The thin moldings gave little surface area for good joints. Besides, what kind of glue was suitable before Krazy Glue? I think that some people patched them up with extra wide plastic packing tape.

Around 1971, I saw a Cox PT-19 stall and crash on blacktop from a height of about 25 to 30 feet. It practically shattered upon impact, with the stabilator broken in two and the wing and fuselage getting pretty banged up, too. Worse, the guy who cracked it up had borrowed it from a younger kid. The older kid claimed that a "little glue will fix it," but I suspect that it ended up in the landfill.


All I can say is dont send them to the Landfill. They can be fixed. I am sure this story is familiar to many of us though.

Mark

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2009, 10:57:33 PM »
Here are two more photos from last Sundays flights. Mark

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2009, 09:23:49 AM »
Not to hijack, but the red and white PT arrived this week. One noticeable difference from the other PTs. The wheels roll much better. If you look on youtube (Eric Hurst), there's a video of a red and white PT taking off from grass. I always wondered why my modern blue and yellow versions wouldn't do that and the red and white would.

Now I know. The silver hub on the red and white rolls much better. Attached (I hope) is a pic. Wonder why Cox changed the wheels? Money?

Mike

Offline Larry Renger

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3995
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2009, 10:27:00 AM »
As far as repair is concerned, I use plastic cement and fiberglass cloth.  Tack glue the parts with the plastic cement, then lay a strip of 'glass over the break and rub more cement through it until it is well bonded.  Do the 'glass on both sides of the plastic.  It should be stronger than new when done right.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #72 on: August 03, 2009, 10:45:22 AM »
Mike,
Have you talked to the guy with the 1967 Vid on YouTube and asked him how he made this work? 

All the grass I have been on wont work for a take off. (Landing either unless you want a yard sale) Some of it was even after it was cut to around 2-3"s.  I would think it would need to be on a Golf green before this would work as it would get into the Prop. The other option would be that it would need to be very thin. My plane just sits down in the grass. I have added larger diameter foam wheels and this doesnt help either.

So.. I take off on the asphalt and then back up and fly over the grass and then walk back when its close and land again. (Place that I posted the pics of) The other place has a paved section in the grass  and we take off and land on that. Its narrow and a little bit of work but we have been able to make it work.

Although the easiest place to do any of this is just in a paved lot. That is if you dont crash! LOL

Thats where I flew as a kid. Found some smooth asphalt and that was it.

I love the grass though. We have been trying to come up with some portable roll out runway dealio but havent been able to make it work.

Cardboard and masonite curl with the moisture. We have talked about Plastic or carpet or whatever that we would roll out and stake down. (Plastic in the sun will kill the grass and we would wear our our welcome) Most of this has just been talk as we arent sure that would work and it all gets very large or difficult to transport. Anything we come up with so far is just too big or heavy or wont be smooth enough etc. We have 2 good places to fly for the moment until someone runs us off.

Mark

Offline Richard Grogan

  • AMA Member 85745 Stunt Hangar
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1375
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #73 on: August 03, 2009, 11:00:22 AM »
Growing up flying our PT19 s in our backyards, we used a 1/2" 4x8 sheet of plywood with the end propped up on a 2x4 board. Kinda like a carrier deck.Works pretty good. I dont ever remember landing on it though!  LL~

 I read somewhere on here about using rubber mats working well, and they roll up for easy transport...
Long Live the CL Crowd!

                  AMA 85745

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #74 on: August 03, 2009, 07:26:55 PM »
Mark: My hope is that my 4x15 piece of carpet works for takeoffs. If I get good, I'll try to land it on the grass. Right now, just starting out, I'm happy to be airborne and go home with the plane in one piece.

Just bought the carpet. I'll flip it over and see what happens. Hopefully, it's big enough to work. ...Richard's idea sounds good, too.

Mike

Offline Frank Sheridan

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 189
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2009, 07:43:51 PM »
We used sheets of paneling from the lumber yard. The really thin stuff used in mobile homes. We would get the damaged sheets for next to nothing. We would overlap two sheets by a couple of inches and that was just enough to get a PT-19 in the air. When I look at one of those planes now, I find it hard to believe some of the things we would do to get them airborne. I've seen them thrown overhand like a javelin, and flung like a boomerang. We were kids. It was fun, just like it is nowadays.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2009, 07:16:38 AM »
Sounds like some good ideas here.

The plywood paneling would do better than the masonite as it wont pic up the moisture in the grass and curl as quick. The Carpet should be good. With our altitude 15' wouldnt be enough but at near sea level you have alot more air and may have some good results.

As far as landing in grass...  It doesnt really happen unless you bring the plane in hot and then flip the nose up at the last second. I have been able to manage this once....Everything else was a yard sale. Comments from my flying partner like.. "Wow.. did you see how high the motor went?!?!!!"  

So.. I stopped trying to land on the grass for now if I can help it.  #^

Mark
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 11:51:49 AM by Mark Misegadis »

Offline don Burke

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1027
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2009, 10:18:39 AM »
I've used a plastic "carpet runner".  I put grommets in the four corners and stake it to the ground.  Works well to let the plane get up to speed. Aterward just rolls up and stows easily.
don Burke AMA 843
Menifee, CA

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2009, 11:54:41 AM »
Hi Don,

I had thought about this. How long was the plastic carpet runner that you used? I am assuming that it was 3 or 4' wide.
Heavy to pack around?

The other thing material that we have dicussed here is a Banner. Grommet holes..thin and light.

Mark
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:16:19 PM by Mark Misegadis »

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2009, 09:02:39 PM »
Tried the PT on the carpet. A little too bumpy. Maybe the grass was too high beneath, I'm not sure.

My guess is the little plane doesn't have the HP to take off carpet. Back to the drawing board. I've got a local park scouted out with a place to play roller hockey. Could be a potential spot. We'll see.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22752
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #80 on: August 05, 2009, 08:11:31 AM »
Most elementary schools have a paved play area as well as grass.  Talk to the school principal.  That is what I did for doing occasional test flying.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #81 on: August 05, 2009, 08:41:32 AM »
John: Good idea, particularly since the kids are still out of school. I'll keep that in mind. It's just a matter of doing some better scouting.

Mike

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #82 on: August 06, 2009, 07:44:32 AM »
I'm learning that part of the challenge of this sport --- other than the actual flying --- is finding places to fly.  Pretty limited where you can actually fly the PT. Tried dirt infields. They work fine and there's plenty of access, but the dirt is tough on an engine.

Offline Andrew Borgogna

  • Andy
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1188
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #83 on: August 06, 2009, 03:50:20 PM »
Thanks Ty for say that the flying circle and the Monsanto house of the future and the monorail were all that interested you.  For me the flying circle was the number one reason for going to Dizzyland.  Funny that fast forward a few decades and I get to know Bart and find out he was one of the people that made my day back then.  The PT-19 is the plane I tought both my sons to fly on.  Greg, my youngest son, still flys well he did until he stuffed my Stuka Stunt.  I just got a Hanger-9 PT-19 and hope to get him back to the field.  His daughter loves to watch grandpa fly toy airplanes, oh and daddy to!
Andy
Andrew B. Borgogna

Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2009, 02:29:49 PM »
Got a 1974 plane --- orange pilots --- today. Pretty detailed. Windshield and controls for the pilots. Yellow firewall.

Earlier in the week, I got my coveted blue/yellow reverse color plane. I'm assuming it's roughly early '70s. Got a babe bee engine. ... Cleaning up both for restoration.

JMO, I think the earlier planes were better. I've got a few that were made in China after Cox sold to Estes and these planes aren't as nice. Again, JMO.

Interesting sidenote: The traditional '74 plane came with a catalog advertising a Cox superstunter Messerschmit. AD said offer expires in Dec. 31 '74. Anyone heard of this plane?


Offline Mike Hodge

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • New Pilot
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2009, 03:22:20 PM »
Did a little research: The Cox Super Stunter was developed by our own Larry Renger. Found this out on the Cox historical website. Don't know if this is accurate, but I have no reason not to believe it isn't.

If I see a super stunter around on ebay, I'll grab it. I like the PT's make, but the super stunter looks like a good flyer.


Offline Robert McHam

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1052
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2009, 03:51:30 PM »
Did a little research: The Cox Super Stunter was developed by our own Larry Renger. Found this out on the Cox historical website. Don't know if this is accurate, but I have no reason not to believe it isn't.

If I see a super stunter around on ebay, I'll grab it. I like the PT's make, but the super stunter looks like a good flyer.



Mike, check this thread! http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=3572.0
Larry does indeed chime in.

Robert
Crop circles are simply open invitations to fly C/L!

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2009, 07:18:54 AM »
Sad news: PT-19 Crash near Colorado Springs.   Mark

http://www.gazette.com/articles/east-59876-small-plane.html

August 08, 2009 10:56 AM
ANDREA BROWN
THE GAZETTE
A World War II veteran and pilot crashed a vintage training plane seconds after take-off near the runway at Meadow Lake Airport Saturday morning.

Witnesses said Burritt Hollister “Hollie” Pond, crashed in a field after taking off in his PT-19A Fairchild wooden aircraft at about 10:40 a.m. from the airport east of Colorado Springs between Falcon and Peyton.

“Witnesses said he couldn’t get enough lift,” El Paso County Sheriff’s Sgt. Ben Dearmont said Saturday at the crash site near the intersection of Judge Orr Road and Highway 24.

Dearmont said the pilot is 87 years old.

Authorities secured the area around the wreckage of bright blue-and-yellow plane across the road from sign that says “Watch for low flying aircraft.”

Pond was flown by helicopter to Penrose Hospital, where a hospital worker said he was in critical condition Saturday night.

“Initial reports are he had a possible broken arm and head injuries,” Dearmont said. “He was alert and speaking to medical personnel, which is a good thing.”

Officials did not release the pilot’s name, but witnesses identified him as Pond, an experienced pilot who frequently flew his plane from the airport.

Pond has a commercial pilot’s license that expires in March of 2011 and is a rated flight instructor.

Air Force records show Pond has two prior aircraft accidents ­— ­both in 1945 when he was flying B-25 Mitchell bombers.

Steve Immel, a weekend fuel station worker, was sitting on a split-rail fence near the airport runway with two others listening to the radio transmissions when Pond’s plane took off.

“There was another guy who was coming in for a landing, so he (Pond) was kind of being pushed,” Immel said. “He actually radioed out and said, ‘Do I have time to take off before you land?’ The other guy said, ‘Yeah, I’ll give you time, I’ll just take more downwind,’ ... which would give him time to take off.”

Immel said he knew something was wrong when Pond’s plane “stayed at about 30 feet the entire length of the runway. He never got air speed and he never got altitude, and he didn’t try to put it back down. His right wing tip went down on the ground. As soon as that happened the engine came down and he tipped over. If you look, you’ll see that it’s a straight line off the tip of the runway,” Immel said.
“Before he even went down I called 911.”

According to the Web site landings.com, the plane is a World War II trainer built in 1943 by Fairchild Aircraft. The open-cockpit trainers were used by U.S. forces and America’s allies.

Federal Aviation Administration investigators arrived just before 12:30 p.m. to determine what caused the crash.

Offline Mark Misegadis

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Cox PT 19 History?
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2009, 09:12:00 AM »
Lets lighten this thread up from that bad news above. How about posting pics of you flying your PT or of your PT. Any and All.

Mark


Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here