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Author Topic: Control line handle "Overhang.'  (Read 6662 times)

Offline Chris Wilson

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Control line handle "Overhang.'
« on: May 05, 2016, 05:32:40 AM »
I have always considered the amount of "overhang" to be the measurement from the line attachment point or line pivot to the wrist's centre or the control centre, same as with a bell crank.
(But rarely do I see it measured or mentioned that way.)

So even if you have a straight bar as a handle it will still hang over the pivot point at least the distance of your palm.

Now if you accept this as logical, then surely a zero overhang attachment point is inline with the wrists pivot point?
(So it is amusing to hear discussions about minimising overhang to reduce loads as much as possible.)

Anyone seen or tried the above described theoretical zero overhang handle?
MAAA AUS 73427

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Online Brad LaPointe

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2016, 09:47:10 AM »
Most Russian F2D handles are set up like this . For combat having a wide hand makes the line spacing too wide , for stunt I doubt it's a problem . Narrow line spacing means lines between your fingers. This is very uncomfortable , especially in a line tangle.

Brad

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2016, 09:54:31 AM »
I have always considered the amount of "overhang" to be the measurement from the line attachment point or line pivot to the wrist's centre or the control centre, same as with a bell crank.
(But rarely do I see it measured or mentioned that way.)

So even if you have a straight bar as a handle it will still hang over the pivot point at least the distance of your palm.

Now if you accept this as logical, then surely a zero overhang attachment point is inline with the wrists pivot point?
(So it is amusing to hear discussions about minimising overhang to reduce loads as much as possible.)

Anyone seen or tried the above described theoretical zero overhang handle?

    I am not sure why you find it amusing.   You can either learn from those who have experimented extensively (with everything including handle settings) or you can mock them, again, but you might consider how well those people do in model airplane contests.

    I doubt that anyone is flying with their fingers rigidly locked and simply moving their wrist up and down. You use your fingers, too, and changing the distance from your fingers to the connection point by 1/8" can be a significant fraction of that.

    That's why your  zero-offset handle would have an issue, because it is  unstable for finger motions.

    Brett

Offline RandySmith

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2016, 11:30:57 AM »
" I have always considered the amount of "overhang" to be the measurement from the line attachment point or line pivot to the wrist's centre or the control centre, same as with a bell crank.
(But rarely do I see it measured or mentioned that way.)

So even if you have a straight bar as a handle it will still hang over the pivot point at least the distance of your palm.

Now if you accept this as logical, then surely a zero overhang attachment point is inline with the wrists pivot point?
(So it is amusing to hear discussions about minimising overhang to reduce loads as much as possible.)

Anyone seen or tried the above described theoretical zero overhang handle? "

NO, not really ,   a small amount of movement in overhang makes for a big change in how it feels and how you can fly an airplane, especially in winds, just for example 3/16 of an inch can make a plane completely unflyable, and makes the pilot unable to put enough force to move the control surfaces. You can also get bad results going the other way. Zero overhang, not enough stick pressure and makes it hard to level flight in squares and all corners, has a detrimental effect on tracking in the rounds.
Also the amount of "stick pressure" varies tremendously with a small in and out  movement of overhang on the handle



Randy
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 12:55:01 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2016, 11:57:08 AM »
I doubt that anyone is flying with their fingers rigidly locked and simply moving their wrist up and down.

Combat fliers do this.  Their whole arms are moving, too.  Otherwise, it becomes a safety thong test.  Stunt people seem less animated about control movement.  After my first contest stunt flight (of the modern era), Paul Walker walked up to me, said, "Is there such a thing as finesse?", turned, and walked away. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2016, 12:04:37 PM »
After my first contest stunt flight (of the modern era), Paul Walker walked up to me, said, "Is there such a thing as finesse?", turned, and walked away. 

Memorable coaching is effective coaching.

Didn't the Chinese at one point use finger-rings with lines attached to them?
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Offline RandySmith

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2016, 12:59:18 PM »
Memorable coaching is effective coaching.

Didn't the Chinese at one point use finger-rings with lines attached to them?

Yes
I fly with my first and little finger, and use pressure from these 2 fingers to have the precise control over the plane in maneuvers.
The middle 2 fingers basically are there just as support.
When you correct , and keep the manuover dead on track,  using the 2 fingers makes it so much more precise\


Randy

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2016, 01:57:05 PM »
I have always considered the amount of "overhang" to be the measurement from the line attachment point or line pivot to the wrist's centre or the control centre, same as with a bell crank.
(But rarely do I see it measured or mentioned that way.)

So even if you have a straight bar as a handle it will still hang over the pivot point at least the distance of your palm.

Now if you accept this as logical, then surely a zero overhang attachment point is inline with the wrists pivot point?
(So it is amusing to hear discussions about minimising overhang to reduce loads as much as possible.)

Anyone seen or tried the above described theoretical zero overhang handle?

Actually Chris, the exact subjects you bring up were discussed in detail in print in the Feb. and March 1985 issues of Model Aviation Magazine (the official AMA magazine.  In addition to covering  the wrist hinge point you address as primal in terms of overhang it also addressed the negative aspects Brett mentioned re the negative effects of zero overhang handles.  The articles included some simple hand drawn figures and tables showing and/or describing the relationship between overhang and control force inputs necessary to deflect the controls.  I'm familiar with these articles because I wrote them and have photo copies in my library.

Somewhere in my articles in the I addressed a personal lesson on the effects of overhang.  Several California fliers were at a US Nats when Bob Hunt showed up with a fantastic looking new handle with an inflight neutral adjustment cleverly engineered into it.  It was so cool that at least two of us, Gary McClellan and myself bought two of them to try as replacements for our standard Hot Rocks (the handles I had been using since about age eleven).  Both Gary and I managed to pull out of our first reverse wingovers with Bob's handles about a half inch too low (on a grass field) with our Nats stunters fortunately with no damage.

There were two items at play in that event.  The first that Bob's handles were molded with noticeable down ("natural") bias and, second, the "arms on his handle were approx. three inches long or about three times that of the Hot Rock.  I subsequently shortened the overhang to match that of the Hot Rock which improved the input force issue but was unable to accommodate the bias and, as a result, I abandoned the handle--but not the lessons I learned from using it.  it was that experience combined with the loss of a brand new Nats bound stunter due to a failed up cable in my modified Bob Baron handle that led me to research better alternatives.  That initiative plus caddying Paul Walker's hard point handle at the Shanghai World Champs that led me to "design" (probably an unfair word considering the legends of the stunt event whose minds I picked without their knowledge but also without subsequent recriminations) the Precision Pro Handle that I "marketed" for a couple of years before passing on the rights to Carl Shoup and which is now known as the "Ted" handle and utilized by many fliers with some success around the world.

A final note on overhang that might be of interest to readers.  A hands on experiment to experience the effect of more or less overhang would be  to construct a fake handle that fits their hand with interchangeable "up" arms of say, zero to six inches, to which can be attached a gallon bottle of water (which weighs about eight pounds if picked up with a normal grip around its handle.  Then pick it up sequentially with the longer "up" arms attached and note the increased effort required.  (Technically, it must be admitted, not an accurate measure but enounh to convince most of the concept.  If skeptical one could connect the bottle to a control line, run it over a mounted pully and back to the handle to get a truer measure.

Chris, you might find the articles of interest and they can be downloaded from the AMA website.  I could, if necessary, scan and post them here but have had only modest success with doing so.

Ted Fancher

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 05:54:23 PM »
I did some ciphering to try to figure this out.  First, some assumptions:
Bellcrank arms are equal length, hence tension on each line due to inertial and aerodynamic forces on the airplane (not counting forces required to react hinge moment) is the same.  
Drag and line-inertia components of line tension are ignored.
Handle mass is ignored.
Bellcrank rotational acceleration is ignored.

The first picture shows the things I used in the calculation.  I allowed for different line spacing for up and down and for different overhang for the up and down lines.  What the heck, why not?  I calculated hup from aup, cup, and δhandle, and hdown from adown, cdown, and δhandle.

The second picture is one way to look at the forces on the handle from the lines and the force and moment applied by the flier.  After seeing what the guys wrote above, I drew the third picture, which may be equivalent.  I separated Tc, the forces needed to react control surface hinge moment, from T, the "common-mode" line tension due to inertial and aerodynamic forces on the airplane.  T includes mV2/r and forces from engine offset, the paltrey fuselage lift, and wing lift * sin of the bank angle.  An interesting aside is that when Tc = T/2, you've hit the Netzeband Wall.

I attached an Excel file you can fiddle with to see the effect of the parameters in the first picture.  The few of you who will want to see the formulas can get them from the Excel cells; they're too hard to type here.   Behold that the distance you have to move the point of average finger force, hfingers in the third picture, is exactly the same number as the net moment from common-mode line tension (M in picture 2) per lb. of line tension.

If you set the c distances to zero, as in Sleepy Gomez's clever handles, the only moment (or finger movement) you will feel is from the airplane's control surface hinge moment.  "Overhang" adds some artificial feel.  Why would you want that, and how much would you want?  My guess is that you want to get some feedback at the handle proportional to how much you are actually deflecting the control surfaces. Because the amount you can deflect the control surfaces (which are on the far end of a 70-foot spring) is a function of the common-mode line tension T, you might want to get some of this feedback from common-mode line tension via overhang.  I don't know offhand how to calculate how much overhang that is, nor how I'd know if I got it right experimentally, nor if my hunch about what overhang is for is correct.  

Edited to fix Excel file.  Tangent, Arctangent, what's the difference?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 11:48:55 PM by Howard Rush »
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 06:20:38 PM »
I would only note that the center of the handle in Howard's diagram is roughly 4" (using my own paw as a test subject) from the center of my wrist joint.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 06:58:41 PM »
Its like the castor , in your front suspension .  ;)

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 07:00:09 PM »
Hi and thanks for the replies,

In order -

Brad, not so much concerned about line spacing but I see your point about the minimum 'practical' overhang and its the same with Team Race handles too.

Brett, the 'why' of why I find every article that I have read on the subject 'amusing' is that they have ignored the full gamut of possibilities (probably out of ease of practicality and keeping the audience attention I assume) and thus somewhat robbed themselves of validity.
A bit like a father truncating a reply with their child with "Its so because I said it."
Now I accept that is so because wise men tell me but have had trouble really seeing why - until now.
Hence me asking the question in a pointed way, I got a pointed answer and I thank you for it.

Randy, the only handle I have ever used is the full circle reel type and using finger pressure as a finesse has always resulted in the circle spinning in my grip, hence using the wrist as the main pivot point.

Tim and Howard, always good to have your views too.

And Ted, thanks for the encyclopedic answer, I really appreciate the time and effort all of that took and I will chase up your references as it would seem to answer the core of the question.

Cheers.
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 07:17:34 PM »
Howard's graphics look like "competently" derived versions of those in my 1985 articles and with similar conclusions, I believe.  One of my graphics also showed various overhangs including "zero" (at the "hinge point) and the conclusion that there would be no restoring force back to neutral.  IIRC  I also commented in the text that "reverse" overhang, line attachments behind the wrist hinge point would be DE-stablizing (apologies in advance if that isn't proper aero lingo) and that the increase in line tension from deflection would tend to increase deflection even more.  Sort of Lou's handle on steroids in the wrong direction!  (I know, I know, Lou.  Not just like yours but, if you built one of your handles with exponential in reverse and attached it to your wrist I bet you'd see some pretty wild reaction on the end of the lines!!)

Ted

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 07:24:56 PM »
Its like the castor , in your front suspension .  ;)

I believe that is "caster", at least over here. Different subject altogether when the word is misspelled, huh? Most folks were probably thinking "castor oil", and wondering WTF? But I think you are correct, Matt.   H^^ Steve 
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 07:31:33 PM »
Here are sample calculations.  If I'd read Ted's note above on negative overhang before I did all the tedious file conversion, I'd have plotted that, too.  Yep, it would be destabilizing if it got negative enough.  Maybe anything negative, maybe it would have to get back to the wrist.  Beats me.  It would tend to twist in your hand.  You'd have to hold on tight.  I hope to see Helmick try it.

Edited to fix plot.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 11:51:09 PM by Howard Rush »
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Online Geoff Goodworth

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2016, 09:02:34 PM »
But Steve, Matt's a Kiwi.

You know—the mob that eat iggs and enjoy sux. y1

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2016, 09:21:41 PM »
"Here are sample calculations.  If I'd read Ted's note above on negative overhang before I did all the tedious file conversion, I'd have plotted that, too.  Yep, it would be destabilizing if it got negative enough.  Maybe anything negative, maybe it would have to get back to the wrist.  Beats me.  It would tend to twist in your hand.  You'd have to hold on tight.  I hope to see Helmick try it."



Sort of like a one handed guy holding a divining rod?  D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2016, 09:27:29 PM »
But Steve, Matt's a Kiwi. <chop>

Wate, mate! I thought he was from the great land down under? His posts are so confusing.   S?P Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Online frank williams

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2016, 09:46:21 PM »
I thought that this is what Chris was talking about ....

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2016, 10:52:29 PM »
I thought that this is what Chris was talking about ....
Um, it is but it matters little as I understand the mechanics of it now.

P.S. it is entirely possible to use the above handle without the lines fouling your hand if you are palm facing down, and yes I have seen a flier adopt this method.
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Offline Russell Bond

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2016, 02:08:44 AM »
Steve, Matt is a Kiwi living in Australia.  :o
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2016, 10:36:56 AM »
I thought that this is what Chris was talking about ....

Looking at this, how do you keep the connection points behind the grip, unless you have vise grip hands.  All I know is that no matter which handle I use, if the plane does what I want it to do and I'm happy, it stays with that plane if I remember to keep the combination together.   H^^
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2016, 12:04:03 PM »
Chris,

Thought I'd post the second of the two articles from the 1985 Model Aviation series that covered most of the aspects we are now discussing on overhang.  Consider them a simple man's attempt to define with a sharp pencil and a protractor what Howard has provided via education and computer graphics comprehension!  The ultimate conclusions are pretty similar. I've red lined the few paragraphs dirctly addressing the subjects currently under discussion, zero and reverse overhangs at our agreed upon wrist hinge point.

There might also be some discussion of a factor Brett brought up, very important to accurate maneuvers; that is inputs having nothing to do with the wrist but everything to do with refined index and pinky finger inputs to finesse slight to modestly flawed gross inputs from the wrist, elbow and arm (two of which have also been ignored, by the way) 

This refinement mechanism aspect also begs the discussion of one of the "Must Have" features of the EasyJust handle and its little brother the Hot Rock.  That feature is the arm extensions enclosing the up and down cables with which a pilot's index and pinky fingers "must" be in contact to make the necessarily minute up and down inputs to refine errors resulting from the grosser refinements from the "handle as an extension of the wrist, etc.  Some fliers no doubt fly very well without.  Most of them would fly even better with them.

I've discovered it will take at least posts to attach all four pages.


ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2016, 12:07:49 PM »
Here are the last two pages.  By the way, I suggest reading the text first to get a handle on what is being presented (again as a layman) in the figures and graphics.

Ted

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2016, 01:44:14 PM »
Steve, Matt is a Kiwi living in Australia.  :o

Well, then...that 'splains it all...maybe...

TED, thank you for scanning and posting that article. I haven't been able to scan anything since being forced into Win10. PITA?

Chris, turning the palm up or down would have no effect on the lines clearing (or contacting) the hand/fingers forward of the attachment points, unless the attachments are shifted to the side, as I suggested to Larry Renger, after he posted his first recent Expo/Ringmaster topic. I'd kinda like to try that, just to see how it worked. But luckily, Larry came up with a different plot.  D>K Steve

"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2016, 05:02:37 PM »
.... the Bearcat was mine ..... not Jim's

Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2016, 05:28:49 PM »

Didn't the Chinese at one point use finger-rings with lines attached to them?

Were their fingers included in the pull-test?  >:D

Offline Chris Wilson

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2016, 02:53:34 AM »
Looking at this, how do you keep the connection points behind the grip, unless you have vise grip hands.  All I know is that no matter which handle I use, if the plane does what I want it to do and I'm happy, it stays with that plane if I remember to keep the combination together.   H^^
Hi John,
               To prevent the handle from capsizing over you could use more of plate in the palm area or glove the handle - the latter is what I have used.

Cheers.


     
MAAA AUS 73427

You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
 Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.  It's not enough that we do our best; sometimes we have to do what's required

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2016, 04:12:59 AM »
Believe the ' negitive stability ' is DIVERGENT , which leaves   Con  - Vergent .

Yes , excuse the puns inuendo perambulations & diatribe .

After all , Australias the only place on the planet where they use the word ' Con ' (Construction ) as a legitimate busness name .
a  name ,


 and a great tradition .
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/ships/1stfleet.htm
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 04:31:30 AM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2016, 04:39:24 AM »
Typical pommy handle, for the antipodes,

The Spike gets the lines off the ground ,static , Sometimes cut off for Combat.

typical / common aussie handle

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2016, 05:12:15 AM »
Neutral osscilation damping , should in English be " Damping TO Neutral " or in fact ' Damping To Central ' :## VD~

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2016, 05:27:12 AM »
Shouldn't "up" be on the bottom "down under"?
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2016, 06:08:15 AM »
Quote
Shouldn't "up" be on the bottom "down under"?

It Was Today . ;D

I flew the Float Planes . Clockwise = Down for Up . If you get it right . S6B & M.C. 72 .
One Dusk the foot caught the Stooge Line , asI was passing 1/3rd of the way out ,a bit distracted . the change of
note hightened my attention.Magnificent strides the equal of the Olympics  ;) as my eyes searched the gloom for the handle ,wontonly . :(
A glint as it flung up free toward me as I dived outstretched the fingers conected with me hurtling past in a fwd sumersult
over my  shoulder with the handle in my  my grasp ,as I rose.



Down ( UP) by my knee had it pulling out upright ( inverted counter clockwise -  up for up ) While I pictured it in a circling climb over the pines & out to sea
I found myself upright & the plane on the lines in front of me just visable in the dark . It took a few laps for this to sink in ,and sort of put me a bit off , on
that flight.

So when things are a bit slow sometimes youve gotta be pretty quick . H^^

incidently , the handles a bit like this , with a spike down from the grip . It got Caught - my hand between the lines , on the front. Not the Grip .

« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 07:05:24 AM by Matt Spencer »

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2016, 10:15:58 AM »
You were lucky.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Control line handle "Overhang.'
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2016, 10:39:05 AM »
It Was Today . ;D

I flew the Float Planes . Clockwise = Down for Up . If you get it right . S6B & M.C. 72 .
One Dusk the foot caught the Stooge Line , asI was passing 1/3rd of the way out ,a bit distracted . the change of
note hightened my attention.Magnificent strides the equal of the Olympics  ;) as my eyes searched the gloom for the handle ,wontonly . :(
A glint as it flung up free toward me as I dived outstretched the fingers conected with me hurtling past in a fwd sumersult
over my  shoulder with the handle in my  my grasp ,as I rose.



Down ( UP) by my knee had it pulling out upright ( inverted counter clockwise -  up for up ) While I pictured it in a circling climb over the pines & out to sea
I found myself upright & the plane on the lines in front of me just visable in the dark . It took a few laps for this to sink in ,and sort of put me a bit off , on
that flight.

So when things are a bit slow sometimes youve gotta be pretty quick . H^^

incidently , the handles a bit like this , with a spike down from the grip . It got Caught - my hand between the lines , on the front. Not the Grip .



Matt,
Not sure where I had seen that plane in a picture the past but surely remember the plane itself.  Those Schneider Cup racers were some of the most beautiful planes ever built and your ship is/was a gorgeous exampe of the semi-scale stunt art.  Totally reflects the aura of the era.  Thanks for sharing the harrowing tale.

Ted


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