News:



  • April 16, 2024, 08:29:16 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's  (Read 7744 times)

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« on: June 25, 2016, 11:44:09 AM »
All-

I tried to bring this topic up here-http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/so-why-is-a-4'-bellcrank-so-much-better-than-a-3'/msg451990/?topicseen#msg451990
But I was invisible there, or maybe the thread drift police had a meeting/blackballing...

Anyway, design factors intrigue me, and I would like it very much if someone with circular bellcrank experience could let me know what they do about the topic.

Common sense dictates that they must not or may not be the best thing since sliced bread because I don't see current designs using them. However, maybe there is a specific case where their Pro's could outweigh the Con's?

Thanks in advance, Y'all!

R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3255
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2016, 11:51:57 AM »
Circular bellcranks were used on team racers that didn't use line clips so you could wrap the lines around to help hold them. In stunt the extra material is just dead weight. I don't think they are even used in team racers anymore.


MM

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 12:03:55 PM »
I thought the reason to use circular bellcranks in stunt was to get equal throw throughout the sweep of the BC, since a normal one seems like it should give more throw closer to level flight?
Maybe I am wrong about this and the arc of the control horns cancels this out?
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2016, 12:14:38 PM »
Chris,
you were not invisible, but this topic was pretty well beat to death in a couple other threads on here. Perhaps a search of the site will lead you to some pros and cons
As I recall ( it was before my time in stunt) Ted Fancer was at least one of the movers and shakers with circular bellcranks too. so perhaps a search with his name and circular in the search parameters will yeild you some info
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline RandySmith

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 13747
  • Welcome to the Stunt Hanger.
    • Aero Products
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2016, 12:31:21 PM »
All-

I tried to bring this topic up here-http://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/so-why-is-a-4'-bellcrank-so-much-better-than-a-3'/msg451990/?topicseen#msg451990
But I was invisible there, or maybe the thread drift police had a meeting/blackballing...

Anyway, design factors intrigue me, and I would like it very much if someone with circular bellcrank experience could let me know what they do about the topic.

Common sense dictates that they must not or may not be the best thing since sliced bread because I don't see current designs using them. However, maybe there is a specific case where their Pro's could outweigh the Con's?

Thanks in advance, Y'all!

R,
Chris


One thing you mostly never hear is that for the system to work  as the theory goes ,  you need a round handle too.
I actually have and tried the round crank with both standard  and I have a round handle
Another thing they have had problems keeping the leadout cable in the track

Randy

Offline Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2016, 12:47:59 PM »
Ted shows the circular bellcrank on the original plans for his IMITATION.

Mike

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2016, 12:57:16 PM »
Chris,
you were not invisible, but this topic was pretty well beat to death in a couple other threads on here. Perhaps a search of the site will lead you to some pros and cons
As I recall ( it was before my time in stunt) Ted Fancer was at least one of the movers and shakers with circular bellcranks too. so perhaps a search with his name and circular in the search parameters will yeild you some info

I'll do the Ted search, but a search of "Circular Bellcranks" only cam up with one hit, and it was MY post....
I did do the search BEFORE I posted the thread.
The search function is not without it's faults, just like me, I suppose.
Thanks Mark.

Ted shows the circular bellcrank on the original plans for his IMITATION.

Mike

Well, that is promising info, thanks Mike.
Off Topic, I received the plans from Eric the next day (awesome speed!) and you should have had my check by now.


One thing you mostly never hear is that for the system to work  as the theory goes ,  you need a round handle too.
I actually have and tried the round crank with both standard  and I have a round handle
Another thing they have had problems keeping the leadout cable in the track

Randy

More good info, thanks Randy.
I've no experience with the circular handle idea. I wonder if Ted was using one of those with the CBC (Circular Bell Crank) in the Imitation?
On the keeping the wire in the track front, I would think it would be pretty easy to incorporate some bondable Teflon tubing (which weighs about nothing) to the inner ribs, which would not need a wire slot then, except a little near the inner tip ribs, for adjusting the lead out sweep.

So, the theoretical advantage would be more linear input to the pushrod. But only if the handle is also round, with wires in a groove? I would be more worried about the handle and it's groove, I think...Although I haven't seen such a device, so maybe there is a way around that "problem"...

Vr,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline George Mitchell

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Ensign
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2016, 01:38:48 PM »
I had one in an Imitation it is 3 1/2 inches made by
John Schwickrath in CA. per Ted Fancher's  specs.
George
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 01:58:57 PM by George Mitchell »

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2016, 02:30:25 PM »
I'll do the Ted search, but a search of "Circular Bellcranks" only cam up with one hit, and it was MY post....
I did do the search BEFORE I posted the thread.
The search function is not without it's faults, just like me, I suppose.
Thanks Mark.


These searches worked well for me.  The '+' in front of a word means "only things with that word" -- so the search is for any posts that have both "circular" and "bellcrank", but excludes things with either "circular" or "bellcrank" -- that would probably get you nearly every thread in the forum.  Putting things in quotes means "with that exact phrase" (you can put a + sign in front, too, but that only means something when there's more than one search term).

HTH.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2016, 04:58:23 PM »
This is an interesting topic.  Thanks for bringing it up.  I would think that the virtues of a round bellcrank (we call 'em quadrants; I don't know why) would be the small swath the leadouts make in the wing and, when used with a round handle, increased leverage over control loads at high control surface deflections.  Sorta like what a Dolby noise-reduction system does electronically.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2016, 07:05:48 PM »
You're welcome, Howard.
I think it's interesting as well. Also, just because in the past an idea wasn't ideal and universally accepted, doesn't mean that the execution couldn't later be done better, and possibly advantageous in some situations.
All innovations intrigue me, not so much that I will use them as presented in the immediate future, but more so that I might take that "out of the box" thinking, or that same principle and apply it elsewhere.
You just never know when it will be good to have a trick up your sleeve, in my opinion.

Best Regards,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Motorman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 3255
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2016, 07:27:50 PM »
Oh ok, I see what it does. It eliminates the ackerman effect and maintains the same mechanical advantage at max elevator deflection. Is this a good thing or just a thing?


MM

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2016, 07:54:44 PM »
Theres a THING . S?P

Justy Flew one plane with a Circular Bellcrank . Though theres a replica on the shelf ready to nail together .

GOODYEAR RACER though . A Ginny , was semi aerobatic . Wether it was the plane , or bellcrank (both Id Think )
It 'grooved ' rather well , so you gave a ( good ) nudge on ' up ' to overtake , which would bounce it up & over .
Basically you ' weighted ' a line for altitude , and it nearly flew itself . ( one or two good F2B ships are similar )-
Handle being a actuator and trimmer .  %^@

The racing / speed blokes here whinge about them jaming . Typically you use a alloy ' cup ' a gnats dick bigger than the bellcrank ,
so the lines dont jump the groove . ( Leadout Hatch was in inner wing - button connectors - leadout Permanent on bellcrank )[*
in N.Z. then .] Here in Aus.  the dry wind blown grit would be more preveland . They have grass in N Z . S?P

The racing types here have gone to ' button ' bellcranks - the lineends go on buttons at the arm ends , The Yatsenko F2B things
hook up similarly ?? No actuall ' leadouts ' at all . - Lines Direct to Bellcrank .

How the erk yyoud get the leadouts to stay in the groove on a 3 - 4 in circular bellcrank is a mystery to me .

Austrawlians commonly use round handles for stunt though, and racing .



Seen them with lines under & over , and thru as shown .
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 08:16:10 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Mike Griffin

  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2759
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2016, 07:56:43 PM »
I got it Chris.  We are in Wisconsin at my daughters wedding .  Thank you very much.

Mike

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2016, 10:36:20 PM »
I'll do the Ted search, but a search of "Circular Bellcranks" only cam up with one hit, and it was MY post....
I did do the search BEFORE I posted the thread.
The search function is not without it's faults, just like me, I suppose.
Thanks Mark.

I suggested it because I know there is more out there than I can remember to write down, I read it all as it came up, but I dont recall it well enough to put it back down
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2016, 10:54:13 PM »
Hi all,

I have to accept some degree of blame and/or damnation for the concept of circular bellcranks for stunt ships.  Yes, indeed, I published two construction articles, the Imitation and the Excitation, which included circular bellcranks for pretty much the reasons suggested in this thread.  In addition, mine were made by a local modeler/machinist, John Shwickrath (sp?) to my linear specifications and, for a short while, were available for purchase.

Unfortunately, although both published airplanes flew extremely well with those 3.5" diameter cranks both also suffered premature degradation of performance due to poor selection of bearing materials.  After several hundred flights apiece on these airplanes heart surgery was required due to excessive wear of the bearings resulting in significant "wobble" of the crank on its axis of rotation which resulted in an unrecoverable hunt in level flight and less than ideal response during maneuvers.  In both cases the circular cranks were replaced with the then "latest thing" 4" cranks.  After surgery, appropriate recovery and rehabilitation both airplanes flew equally well on the larger "conventional" bellcranks and, thus, my experimentation came to a close.  When I build nowadays...rarely...I've no intention whatsoever to utilize the three remaining circular cranks on my shelf.

Here are a few thoughts on subjects brought up in this thread.

The very real value of larger diameter leadout arms on a bellcrank is the multiplication factor of that arm times the line tension available to deflect the controls as required by our tricks.  An evaluation of control systems has to pretty much work backwards, first determining and recognizing the amount of force required to deflect the elevators (and flaps, if installed) and the line tension available to allow us to obtain that necessary deflection, multiplied by the moment arm of the associated bellcrank arm.  Large airplanes with large flaps and elevators require more force to deflect than does a Ringmaster or a Skyray, for instance.  In order to deflect the flaps and elevators as required we utilize the line tension available multiplied by the "arm" by which the line tension force is employed.  If, for instance, we took a two inch bellcrank like we used in a .15 powered sport ship and installed it in our high zoot Thundergazer or other modern "pro-stunter"  The one inch up or down arm of that little bellcrank will be hard pressed to provide the muscle required to drive the large surface area controls against the airloads they produce.  Double that to a four inch bellcrank and, all of a sudden, line tension X bellcrank arm is more than adequate to win the Nats.

Realize also, that the bellcrank is only one part of the airborne system and requires a commensurate increase in the arms of the control horns so as not to lose what you've gained; i.e. those left over 1/2 inch max arm Veco horns from that dinosaur kit in your attic can very easily undo all the advantages you gained by using the bigger bellcrank!  Howard can do the math but it's pretty simple.  You wouldn't try to deflect the ailerons of your B-747 with 1/2" arm horns and one of Paul's Superstunters is a large step in that direction.

Any advantages of circular bellcranks, I believe, quickly fell into the "noise" category when coupled with conventional control horns.  As someone suggested, a fully linear system throughout the full range of control motion would require not only a circular bellcrank but also that circular handle someone previously mentioned and a pulley system rather than control horns to drive the flaps and elevators.  The only technical advantage of a stand-alone circular bellcrank would be a constant ratio of bellcrank movement per handle movement...only if the Handle was circular as well.

All things considered the effort to construct a satisfactory circular bellcrank seems to me to far outstrip any value received from doing so.

Here's one last thought.  There is some question in my mind that a fully linear (a given degree of handle displacement results in identical control surface deflection) would be desirable to win stunt trophies.  The only potential advantage would be in cornered maneuvers and that advantage would appear to be solely that the pilot could continuously more aggressively drive the ship in the desired direction required by the maneuver...which sounds good in and of itself.  What I fear would be the undoing would be the difficulty of going from "max pitch change per unit of input" to a straight flight segment in the desired angular direction from the previous leg.  In our conventional control system the "rate of change" per unit of input degrades as we get deeper into a corner which likely improves our ability to exit the corner more accurately on the angle and in the direction defined in the Rule Book.

Although I've still got three of John's beautifully machined 3.5" circular cranks in their original packages and could probably sell them for megabucks as the Holy Grail of stunt immortality I thought I'd just tell the truth of my experiment instead.  Keep an eye out if you remain a believer.  When I croak the kids'll probably try to sell them on e-Bay...if they can figure out what the heck they are.

Ted Fancher


Online Gerald Arana

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1532
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2016, 09:45:06 AM »
Hi Ted,

A while back I had acquired 3-4 of those "round" BC's and elected to sell them on eBay. They sold. Can't remember what I got for them, but it was enough.

Very interesting to say the least. Being a practical person, (read simpleton) I decided not to use them.  ;D

Thank you for that "Great" explanation.

Cheers, Jerry

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2016, 10:58:22 AM »
Ted-

Thanks so much for the detailed information that you took the time to post. I hope you can type faster than I can!

I have one very basic question for you regarding these circular bellcranks, IF you can remember:

What difference, if any, did you notice on the feel or response of the planes that had circular cranks over conventional? Sounds like with the CBC's being 3.5" in diameter, and most conventional BC's being either 3" or 4", it was not an apples to apples comparison anyhow, but I'm curious if even without the circular handle a difference was noticeable?

Hope you can make sense of my question, and hope you are enjoying your weekend, sir!

Kind Regards,
Chris Behm
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline dale gleason

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 842
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2016, 11:26:32 AM »
Don Hutchinson uses circular bellcranks in his biplane semi-scale stunters. The leadouts are between the wings and exit the fuselage sidewall. His homebuilt/engineered wooden  circular bellcranks allow tiny fairleads (tubes) through the fuselage wall as opposed to large slits that would be needed for a regular crank.

I flew his "Moitle" in a demo flight at the VSC and didn't notice anything unusual in control handle feel, other than the plane smoothly went where it was pointed. Bart K. has flown Don's Stearmans and they perform well with the Circular crank.
  dg

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2016, 01:20:17 PM »
Some effort spent in calculation would yield some insight into the effects of circular bellcranks, big bellcranks, tall control horns, and the like. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2016, 01:24:52 PM »
 
You wouldn't try to deflect the ailerons of your B-747 with 1/2" arm horns...

I was surprised to learn that the control surface control horn arm length of 747s and such isn't much bigger than those of stunt planes. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Online David Hoover

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2016, 01:43:36 PM »
 
I was surprised to learn that the control surface control horn arm length of 747s and such isn't much bigger than those of stunt planes. 

Yeah, but the actuators on a 747 have a lot more grunt.
Life is simple. Eat. Sleep. Fly!
Best, Hoovie

Offline Steve Helmick

  • AMA Member and supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 9933
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2016, 02:01:56 PM »
Seems to me that a circular handle and circular bellcrank would suggest the use of circular control horns and cables instead of pushrods. I'm not sure how to get from a circular BC to a circular flap horn with pulleys & cables in such a short distance, but the whole deal seems like a PITA and heavy.

This reminds me, back in the early 1950's my Dad made a small all-balsa model with an Arden .099 that had the leadouts (or lines?) go around a pair of pulleys to the elevator horn(s). I think it flew, but was extremely sensitive. You'd need the control horns to be really long (2" or so) and really good hinge at the center of the elevator(s) to take the line tension. Might be fun to try on a Ringmaster or a trainer-type model? Then again, the stretch and bending in the leadouts would be a disadvantage, much like a cable handle....but probably much worse.   S?P Steve  
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Gordon Van Tighem

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 420
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2016, 02:06:29 PM »
I used commercially available circular bellcranks in fast combat in the late seventies, early eighties. They were smooth and responsive. No problem with slipping the groove, no need for circular handle.
Problem with the groove was it collected stuff, such as salt crystals from the popcorn you should never eat while building. I lost a plane due to a line breaking at the bellcrank, a microscopic analysis found, surprise, salt crystals.
Took a year, but they ate through.
Gord VT
MAAC 3738L, Life Member
AMA C3738L

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2016, 02:12:34 PM »
Seems to me that a circular handle and circular bellcrank would suggest the use of circular control horns and cables instead of pushrods.

Hence the suggestion of calculation.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2016, 02:18:22 PM »
 
I was surprised to learn that the control surface control horn arm length of 747s and such isn't much bigger than those of stunt planes. 

Not necessary when you consider the line tension of 750K pounds on 70 foot lines at .85M.

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2016, 02:55:03 PM »
Ted-

Thanks so much for the detailed information that you took the time to post. I hope you can type faster than I can!

I have one very basic question for you regarding these circular bellcranks, IF you can remember:

What difference, if any, did you notice on the feel or response of the planes that had circular cranks over conventional? Sounds like with the CBC's being 3.5" in diameter, and most conventional BC's being either 3" or 4", it was not an apples to apples comparison anyhow, but I'm curious if even without the circular handle a difference was noticeable?

Hope you can make sense of my question, and hope you are enjoying your weekend, sir!



Kind Regards,
Chris Behm


Hi Chris,

At the time I had them made the concept of anything larger than three inch bellcranks was pretty much rattling around in otherwise empty heads.  Two and three inch cranks were essentially ubiquitous as were 1/2" horns from Veco/Sig, etc.  Remember, enlarging just the diameter/leadout arms of the bellcrank was never, I don't believe, considered as stand-alone alterations...certainly not by me.  The whole airborne system had to be considered as well so as to allow utilizing control handles at the other end that remained more or less complimentary to the human hand.

In my case I was in search of two things only one of which made a substantive difference; first was the additional leverage gained by the enlarged airborne arms to reduce required input forces while retaining nominally unchanged handle rotation to control deflection ratios.  The second thing (which makes a bit of a lie of the first) was that I thought I would minimize the decrease in control surface deflection due to the "conventional BC" arm shrinking as rotation of the bellcrank increased  (i.e. the first 10 degrees from neutral displaces the controls a lot but the last 10 degrees (assuming you could rotate the bellcrank 90degrees from neutral) would produce almost no increased deflection...everything in between would be someplace in between.

At the time I had also thought about full cable systems (although not including the circular handle) which would have resulted in a much closer to uniform "rotation to surface deflection" but lacked the brain power and skills to design and construct such a system.

To reiterate from my earlier post, I could detect zero difference in perceptible rate of turn response upon reverting to conventional four inch bellcranks on either airplane when the circular BC bearings wore to the point of unservicability...more sensitive pilots may have been able to but it was literally a non-issue for me.

One last comment, David Fitzgerald, who built a couple of his early morphed Imitation/Excitation ships with the circular BCs after his return to competitive stunt following his Air Force tour of duty told me he thought he was less able to precisely control the  flight path under low tension maneuvers--the wingover in particular--citing the increased sensitivity around neutral due to the circular crank.  Being sort of a neanderthal myself I was never sensitive enough to detect the difference. 

I would, nonetheless, read with interest the results of some stunt Thomas Edison's experience with a fully linear cable/pulley/round handle combination.

Ted

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2016, 03:18:37 PM »
I would, nonetheless, read with interest the results of some stunt Thomas Edison's experience with a fully linear cable/pulley/round handle combination.

Wasn't Russell Shaffer doing this? 

Making everything in the airplane round would duplicate what we're doing now with the levers, wouldn't it?   I'd think just making the bellcrank round would be interesting, and might enable me to have a shear web on the outer half of my left wing, but if Ted couldn't feel any difference, I sure couldn't, so I doubt if I'll mess with it, even to do the ciphering.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2016, 03:30:44 PM »
Not necessary when you consider the line tension of 750K pounds on 70 foot lines at .85M.

I suspect that the proper line length for a 747 would be around 2500 feet.  This would require a larger-than-usual circle.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Russell Shaffer

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1333
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2016, 04:24:32 PM »
Russell was throwing out ideas when people were discussing control horn angularity.  However, Russell can barely fly a Flite Streak and after reading Ted's comments he can see that there is no possible gain to be had from oddball ideas.  Although, how about combining an exponential handle and an exponential bellcrank?  Maybe I can build an unflyable  airplane.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just North of the California border

Online Dan McEntee

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6852
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2016, 04:30:28 PM »
   Some where around here in my collection of stuff I think I have a Hi Johnson circular or semi circular bell crank still in the package. I never throw anything away so it should still be here somewhere. If I find it I'll report back with specifics on it. Anybody else remember these, if I'm remembering it correctly?
   Type at you later,
     Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
EAA  1038824
AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22767
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2016, 04:58:51 PM »
I too have one of the Dynamic Models circular bell cranks.  It is the large one.  We tried the small one for racing and quit using them because of the solid line hook up.   
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2016, 06:50:25 PM »
Good copy on all info, thanks gents.
My internet went down today and so this reply is kind of late, but a lot was accomplished in the shop, so that is good for sure.
Probably won't mess with the CBC, but if I do, it might be on a 1/2A with an exposed BC, so easy swaps.

R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Don Hutchinson AMA5402

  • 2014 Supporters
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 721
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2016, 01:09:09 PM »
Here is the cockpit photo of the Stearman bellcrank. I only did it this way to avoid cutting slots in the side of the fuselage. The copper tubes guide the leadouts just fine. As for the flying, I did not notice any difference from a normal bellcrank. Here is a photo of the setup.

Offline Target

  • C/L Addict
  • 2019 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1692
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2016, 05:15:18 PM »
Beautiful craftsmanship. Thanks for posting Don.

R,
Chris
Regards,
Chris
AMA 5956

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2016, 05:58:06 PM »
I suspect that the proper line length for a 747 would be around 2500 feet.  This would require a larger-than-usual circle.

Well, either that or a very heavy pilot!

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2016, 06:44:33 PM »
Well, either that or a very heavy pilot!

A larger circle and a heavy pilot -- if you assume that the pilot will be comfortable with a line tension of half his weight (this is, essentially, scale), he'll need to bulk up to about 8 million pounds or so.

But, it turns out that with 2500' lines you're pulling about 8.4g.  A typical stunt ship (If'n I'm doing my math right) pulls about 3g -- that implies a 7000' diameter circle, which means the pilot only needs to be at 3 million pounds.  That sounds much more practical to me.  Howard can check my math.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2016, 07:24:05 PM »
If you want to do the control system right, and maybe tune it to your preferences during building instead of after painting, go back and read Wild Bill's articles that appeared in American Aircraft Modeler and his 101 Designs summary  comparing stunt design characteristics.  Once you rough out a layout for the plane the articles lead you through the various steps-
1) Calculate the expected control loads on the elevator control horn and the flap horn.  Ideally, to minimize wear the third arm of the bellcrank and the control horns should be as long as practical and incorporate wear resistant bearings- ball links, ball bearings, good bushings, etc.
2) Figure out the "Netzeband Wall" limit,  usually 2-5 lbs or so- the centrifugal force at the top of the circle while in a 45deg loop in the overhead 8.  Probably the most common major error one sees in PA competition is 60deg loops in the overhead eight because the plane can't fly a tighter one.  This is the force that has to be big enough to overcome the control forces.  The limit is always less than level flight line tension but there isn't any simple rule relating the two.  See 101 Designs.
3) Calculate out the forces in the control system and see if your design has enough control oomph to keep good control in the overhead eight.
4)  If it does compare the other indices to the 101 Designs to see if there may be other problems such as an undesireably small tail(tail volume), tracking, etc.


I think these articles are available through PAMPA
The AAM articles are available from several sites online
zborcircular.blogspot.com/2009/05/bill-netzebands-stunt-design-summary.html-  Nezebands_stunt_design_summary.pdf  Nice Romanian website.  Can't find the owner's name though.  This may be available other places.
phil Cartier

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2016, 08:24:02 PM »

2) Figure out the "Netzeband Wall" limit,  usually 2-5 lbs or so- the centrifugal force at the top of the circle while in a 45deg loop in the overhead 8.  Probably the most common major error one sees in PA competition is 60deg loops in the overhead eight because the plane can't fly a tighter one. 

I am sorry but respectfully, I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion?
the biggest problem I see is that many people fly them to small and the airplane looses energy more than them being to large?
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2016, 12:38:52 PM »
I am sorry but respectfully, I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion[.]

About the overhead eight?  Probably from watching poor stunt planes.  Philip (and Netzeband) are (were) on the right track, but Netzeband oversimplified to get tidy answers.   

1) Calculate the expected control loads on the elevator control horn and the flap horn. 

This is the hard part.  Netzeband gave a convenient way to calculate this.  I have the textbook he got it from, and I saw what he left out.  Also, the "Wall" is squishy.   A substandard or poorly trimmed stunt plane can do overhead eights, but approaching the Wall, it's merely difficult to maintain the flight path.  A little extra line tension will tighten the loop; a little less will loosen it.  There are remedies.  Some have been mentioned here and in the bellcrank-size thread.  Captain Fancher, Igor, and PJ have come up with others. 

Inability to turn tight enough in overhead eights once cost me a pile of good stereo gear.  I was flying a Mejzlik plane in the Bladder Grabber finals against Mark Rudner.  We got into overhead eights.  I couldn't maintain the loop radius and he got me. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Howard Rush

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7811
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2016, 12:42:05 PM »
I should add that I once saw Robert Storick do a 40-point overhead eight.  Too bad it was on a practice flight.
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2016, 01:50:41 PM »
Dunno if it's luck or what, but my overhead eights have always tended to be too small and ragged.  Dunno how that maps to Phil's (2).
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2016, 06:03:31 PM »
About the overhead eight?  Probably from watching poor stunt planes.  Philip (and Netzeband) are (were) on the right track, but Netzeband oversimplified to get tidy answers.   

 
It was more a question about the  comment regarding the overheads being 60 degrees because they cant fly smaller ones,,
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2016, 11:18:10 PM »
I am sorry but respectfully, I am curious as to how you came to this conclusion?
the biggest problem I see is that many people fly them to small and the airplane looses energy more than them being to large?
I didn't come by the conclusion.  I just read Wild Bill's  101 Stunt Planes.  Some planes pull better in level flight and lose more line tension in the overhead eights.  Yes WB simplifies some calculations, but they are quicker and more reliable than cut and try.

A lot of flyers, especially in Advanced, seem to like how the Pathfinder flys.  It's a relatively easy build, doesn't pull hard in level flight(<10lb) and keeps 1/3 of it's line tension in an OH eight-3.2/9.45.  It's easier to fly because the pilot doesn't have to contend with widely varying line tension. Compare that to the Chizler- pretty light level flight line tension, 6.6 lb and it drops to 20% in the OH eights.  Both planes can fly very well, but the Chizler requires a much defter touch especially if it's a bit breezy.
phil Cartier

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2016, 09:58:07 AM »
I didn't come by the conclusion.  I just read Wild Bill's  101 Stunt Planes.  Some planes pull better in level flight and lose more line tension in the overhead eights.  Yes WB simplifies some calculations, but they are quicker and more reliable than cut and try.

I'm going to have to pay closer attention at the next few contests, but I don't think I've seen any otherwise good overhead eights that dip down to 30 degrees on both sides.  Mostly they're splattered all over the sky, or they're overhead lazy eights, or they're too small, or they're offset one way or another, or one loop is way bigger than the other.  I don't think I've ever seen two perfect circles that kiss each other straight overhead and dip down to 30 on the sides.

Line tension is an issue, particularly in causing a maneuver where the inside loop is a perfect circle and the intersection from the outside loop gets a bit "lazy".  This effect, however is more a matter of the airplane responding more sluggishly (because of the spring effect that Howard mentioned) than it not being able to respond at all.  If you're ready for it, and you know where the airplane should be in the loop, then you can correct for it and do a good overhead.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ted Fancher

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2326
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2016, 11:54:03 AM »
Gotta admit I'm not 100% in sync with my friend Phil's conclusions...nor his observations.

Short story:  A number of years ago when I was an airline pilot and flying regularly to Sydney, Australia I frequently went flying with good friends like Jeff Reeves, Brian Eather and others...good to excellent fliers one and all.  One time in the late last century when Brian had a newer ship (the less extreme version of his famous Firecracker designs; earlier versions of which were noted for their highly tapered wings, large tail and "more than generous offsets of the engine, rudder and leadout rake).  He was powering it with a then new but up and coming large Stalker of some sort...that I later touted in print as the finest running stunt engine I'd ever had the privilege of flying.  He was kind enough to let me fly a few flight with it at their Kuringai flying site on one such layover.

After I landed, suitably impressed by both the airplane and the engine, several fliers asked if I always flew my overhead eights that small.  I was surprised as they seemed pretty normal to me and that I sort of felt they were flying them too big.  After some give and take about who's preference was correct my final comment that seemed to get my point across was that we should "...always remember that at each extreme end of the overhead eight their should be adequate room between the airplane and five feet above the ground to complete another loop of the same size as those being flown in the overhead.  If there isn't, the pilot's overheads were too big."

Subsequent flights by the locals were flown adapting to that concept and I recall no one advising his airplane was unable to do them smaller than they had been.

I've been flying stunt patterns for a long time and can only recall having to fudge overhead sizes under extreme wind conditions when ground speed coming back into the wind seriously degraded centrifugal/centripital (I don't argue the correct one...simply type both...saves time and ink) force and thus line tension 

Offline Mark Scarborough

  • 2015
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 5918
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2016, 01:53:29 PM »
I didn't come by the conclusion.  I just read Wild Bill's  101 Stunt Planes.  Some planes pull better in level flight and lose more line tension in the overhead eights.  Yes WB simplifies some calculations, but they are quicker and more reliable than cut and try.

A lot of flyers, especially in Advanced, seem to like how the Pathfinder flys.  It's a relatively easy build, doesn't pull hard in level flight(<10lb) and keeps 1/3 of it's line tension in an OH eight-3.2/9.45.  It's easier to fly because the pilot doesn't have to contend with widely varying line tension. Compare that to the Chizler- pretty light level flight line tension, 6.6 lb and it drops to 20% in the OH eights.  Both planes can fly very well, but the Chizler requires a much defter touch especially if it's a bit breezy.

I think that what you are observing here is a trim issue not a design issue as such.
I know I can trim my airplane to have great tension overhead or great tension level or decent tension all over,, same airplane, same lap times just trim changes
For years the rat race had me going around in circles, Now I do it for fun!
EXILED IN PULLMAN WA
AMA 842137

Offline Tim Wescott

  • 2016 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 12808
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2016, 02:20:26 PM »
I think that what you are observing here is a trim issue not a design issue as such.
I know I can trim my airplane to have great tension overhead or great tension level or decent tension all over,, same airplane, same lap times just trim changes

When was that treatise written?  Could it be before the era of adjustable this and adjustable that, and therefore been from a time when nothing was really trimmed well except by chance?
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline john e. holliday

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22767
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2016, 10:20:46 AM »
I think back in the day before we had all the adjustable features, it was not unusual for a designer to cut into his plane and change things.   But I think experience and practice put most of them at the top.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Air Ministry .

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 4980
Re: Circular bellcranks- Pro's and Con's
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2016, 08:33:36 PM »
Here in NEWZEALAND  ;D ( This is 1953 ! ) We are familiar WITH THE circular bellcrank !



Advertise Here
Tags:
 


Advertise Here