A/C not R/C, I need advice, ASAP

[Avaiojet]

There must be someone in the Forum gifted with knowledge about Air-Conditioning?

Our AC just died and even though I only have 1600 sq ft of living space, I'm looking at $3595.00 for a complete setup.

What just died was 14 years old.

The 3595.00 was a quote for a Brand called Trane. 2.5 tons for 1600 sq. ft.

This is not my field. I also have to make a decision today as to what Brand and the cost.

Anyone in this field? No, not a flying field, the A/C business.

Immediate help will be appreciated.

First time I ever Posted a non related to modeling subject, so forgive me.

Thanks in advance.

Charles

[bruce fraser]

Charles
I don't post much here but I do know a little about Air Conditioning. Trane is a very good Brand. I don't have A/C in my house but I do have a Trane heater and it has always worked great. What you should do is make sure the contractor is a good one. If you have done business with the contractor and he has done good work for you then OK go with it.  $3500 is reasonable.

[Avaiojet]

Bruce,

Thanks for that quick reply. I'm at a loss because I know absolutely nothing about this stuff.

There's three or so good Brands and contractors favor one over another plus they talk a good talk.

I hope I get help.

Charles

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

Hi Charles.  As Bruce mentioned, Trane is an excellent product and the price seems fair.  The biggest thing is making sure the contractor you pick is a good one.  Talk to your friends in the area, ask for references, check the internet.....google the contractor and look for negative or positive comments.  Sorry I can't be a bigger help.

[Tim Wescott]

What everyone has said so far -- Trane is a good brand, but installation can make or break a system.

We're a member of Angie's list and have been very happy with the workmen we've found through it.  If you're contemplating spending $3500 on an air conditioning system, it's probably worth a year's subscription to Angie's list just to get on their web site once and find a contractor.

[Dick Pacini]

If you already have A/C, the ductwork and electrics can be re-used.  It is strange that the whole system would collapse; condensor, evaporator, fan, compressor.  The repair shop might be trying to sell a new system, rather than troubleshoot and repair.

Trane is one of the best, but I wouldn't jump on that unless I was convinced the old system couldn't be repaired.  Seek another opinion or two.

[Eric Viglione]

Charles, I don't know how close you are to the Miami gang of flyer's, but if I remember correctly, Enrique Diez owns and runs an A/C company down on your coast. He flies with Orestes and Josias club. All I have is an email: enriquediez63 AT yahoo.com
Maybe help if you speak Spanish... well, there is no maybe about that one. 
EricV

[Larrys4227]

$3500 would be cheap here in Florida.  I'm assuming that your talking all components .... air handler and outside compressor?, using existing duct work?

I need to replace mine, but I've been saying that for 2-3 years now ... it just keeps going and going and going ... and still holds refrigerant.

Good luck .... best advice that you've been given ... find a good installer.

[FLOYD CARTER]

Hey!  Unless you know everything about A/C, you have to call a professional.  They are in the business to make a profit!

I recently had a compressor go out on my outdoor Bryant heat pump.  Just a compressor.  My bill was $2400. 

I try to fix my appliances; dishwasher, dryer, etc.  But some things are beyond my ability.

Floyd

[Steve Hines]

is this a heat heat pump. dont know if you have cotton wood trees there, but if you do, dont get a trane. The condenser is the hardest to cleen. If you can tell me what you want, I can give you my cost, and what brand will work best. a simple condenser is about $700 non heat pump.

Steve

[Tim Wescott]

is this a heat heat pump. dont know if you have cotton wood trees there, but if you do, dont get a trane. The condenser is the hardest to cleen. If you can tell me what you want, I can give you my cost, and what brand will work best. a simple condenser is about $700 non heat pump.

Are the fins on the Trane condenser spaced a lot closer together than on other brands?  I know mine's pretty impressive.  I could see how a good fall of cottonwood fluff would clog it right up, and right quick, too.

[Jim Kraft]

I had a singer funace and air conditioner that lasted 35 years with hardly any maintenance. I replaced them both for 3700 installed with a Carrier two years ago and am happy with it so far.

[Mike Scholtes]

We do have one full-time professional HVAC man who posts here frequently. Maybe he will chime in with his sage advice. I don't think I should name him without his consent.

[Steve Riebe]

I've been an HVAC service tech for over 40 years and the above posts have been on target.  There are many brands out there and they are all using the same basic components.  The Trane outdoor units are a little harder to clean and maintain because their coils look similar to garland you would use on a Christmas tree.  Cottonwood and dandelion fuzz really seems to build up in all brands but it will be harder to remove in the Trane or GE units. Your older system likely uses refrigerant 22 which is being phased out due to environmental concerns.  The new systems operate on high pressure refrigerant so all the components will need to be replaced to be compatible.  There may be some government rebates in effect so you might want to inquire about that with your contractor.  Avoid side job installs from a friend of a friend.  Might be cheaper but you will want to be able to fall back on a legitimate contractor should you have problems. A 1600 square foot house is close to borderline whether you should install a 2-1/2 ton or 2 ton system.  The air conditioning system will only remove humidity while it is running, so a larger system cycling in hot weather will not be nearly as efficient as a smaller system that keeps running nearly all the time during peak heat gain hours.  Another thing to consider is if you use daytime "set up" while you are at work.  The smaller system will not recover nearly as fast. Other factors can influence system sizing such as shade and insulation, especially in the attic.  Also windows, especially those with a south exposure. For a 2-1/2 ton system to operate efficiently you will need a minimum of 10 supply air registers in your home. Each will usually be capable of delivering 100 cfm.  The system will require a total of 1000 cfm at 400 cfm per ton.  If you have a bi-level home don't count the ones in the lower level as you will probably have to shut those off for summer.  Return air registers located near ceiling height will also help the comfort level in your home.  This all being said, I have always been pretty happy with Amana products.  I would be more then happy to help with any other questions you might have.  Now if I could only learn to fly inverted  

Edit: Just sunk in that your system was only 14 years old.  That is extremely poor service life, lots of things can cause that. I see systems 30+ years old quite often and still going strong with proper maintenance and a proper installation and startup.  Again be sure to hire a legitimate contractor with a good and preferably long past history in your community

[Glenn (Gravitywell) Reach]

I flew inverted once......but I ran into an air conditioner!   Sorry....couldn't resist.

[Steve Helmick]

Get your A/C make, model and S/N and see if you can find a fix-it video on YouTube. I've fixed my stove, dryer and TV that way. Running around with hands in the air saying "I don't know anything about it" doesn't git 'er done.  Steve

[Steve Hines]

You can get uncharged 22 units, this would be cheaper. You have not been back to your post, what did they say was wrong.  Too many times seen unit only needing cheep part. I would call some else to see if can be repaired, don't tell them what the other place had said. I been doing this a long time and there is a lot of company I would stay away from here where I live. Residential is where most people start, and that can be a problem.

Let us know more about this and where you live, for sizing

s
Steve

[EddyR]

  I never worked on AC before but I do know HV electric.
 When I turned on my heat,heat pump, this fall the aux heat came on and would not shut off. Both heat sequencers, relays, had blown the tops off and were in the run all the time mode. I had to turn off the breaker to turn off the heat. I looked on Google and found it was a common problem. Cost me less than $30 to repair. I found a hole rusted through the condenser frame and it allowed water to drip on the relays. I was a little nervous the first time I checked it out. Saved my self $200+
Ed

[Rollin Keszler]

Sizing an HVAC unit for your house is more complicated than you might think.  I know contractor's have tons of experience but saying a 1600 sq ft house needs 2.5 tons doesn't take into account the factors that influence heat gain or loss.  A house with good insulation, lots of shade, few windows, etc, might need radically different capacity than the same house positioned in full sun, fewer shade trees, etc.  It might cost a few dollars but I'd recommend you have a heat load analysis run per ASHRAE Manual J to find out what's really needed.  And if you're going to live in the house for a few more years, consider a two-stage system which offers improved comfort and humidity control.  And if you can afford it, and if nat gas is available, consider a hybrid system with electric HP/AC (in two stages) and a gas back-up when it's too cool for the HP to deliver the BTU's needed.  Speaking from experience, I ditched my old R22 single stage, redid the distribution duct work, did the Manual J analysis (and found I didn't need as big a unit!), installed a hybrid HP/AC system with 2-stage gas furnace, and it eliminated the musty, mildew smells and even dried out the basement.  Wonderful system.

[Motorman]

If my AC broke and the repair guy told me I need a whole new system I would definitely get a second opinion. Almost anything can be fixed.


MM

[BillP]

Get a second opinion...I had a Rheem ac go down after 25 yrs and the first company told me I needed to replace the whole system. I called a second company to check it and they immediately found a broken (burnt through at lug) wire at the compressor, repaired it and charged me 1 hr labor and service call. It lived another 8 yrs and I replaced it 6 years ago with a Carrier Tempstar...which I believe is their economy version without all the bells and whistles. The old was 2.5 ton and I put another 2.5 ton in but it was overkill. The ac company told me 2 tons would do it but I didn't want to take a chance and did the 2.5. Needless to say, the new unit doesn't cycle long before it cools but lucky for us it doesn't have humidity problems due to it being so big.  The new units are way more efficient so take that into consideration.  If I could do it over again a 2 ton would have replaced the 2.5.  Total price on this was $2400 (could have spent double on a deluxe system) and they used my existing ductwork...it is still performing without issues. The summer electric bill also dropped about $1 a day here in central Florida.

I won't go into detail but our other house had a situation where the annual service check revealed the entire system needed "replacement" because it was "junk and on it's last leg."  They really pressured me to buy a new unit but I didn't. Yep, that was 15 yrs ago and it hasn't missed a beat since. This one is a Lennox and it is going on 25+ yrs without one break down.

[Avaiojet]

Guys,

Thanks for the input.

Here's the thing. I know this can be repaired. System has R-22.

Leak repair plus charging, about 500.00, possibly a tad more.

14 years old and costly to run on the electric bill. Plus after the fix, who knows how long it will last.

If I dump the system now and replace it with a more efficent system, I save on the electric bill, not to mention the cost of a system some time down the road. Everything goes up in price.

So, I bite the bullet now and save on the long run.

Looks like Carrier and Rheem could be the choice. Still 3K +. I'd like to sell a bunch of model stuff but I don't think I have 3K worth of model stuff.

I'll know more tomorrow. Friday may be the day I have it done.

Thanks again,

Charles

[Dan McEntee]

  You need to rethink your math. 14 years old isn't that old for an A/C system, like it already has been mentioned. You probably won't live long enough to realize the difference in savings on your electric bill, or the need to replace the system, if it is repaired correctly and if indeed that is what the problem is. But then again you were the guy trying to compare a Lake Amphib to a Globe Swift! It's February, can't be that hot down there. Why be in such a hurry that you can't do your research calmly and sanely and get several bids?
  The solution is pretty obvious.
   Dan McEntee

[Dan Berry]

I agree. 500 clams to fix a 14 yr old machine would be money well spent

[Clint Ormosen]

As an HVAC business owner, I love these threads. Free entertainment.

[Tim Wescott]

I agree. 500 clams to fix a 14 yr old machine would be money well spent

Ditto.  I just spent about that much on mine, which is about that old.  As long as the repair holds, and a good repair guy should know.  Even if it's a 50-50 chance it's worth it in the long run.

As an HVAC business owner, I love these threads. Free entertainment.

I'm glad that we're helping you out there, buddy!

[Dick Pacini]

As an HVAC business owner, I love these threads. Free entertainment.

What is your advice, Clint?

[frank williams]

Repair it ... 14yrs isn't that old .... find a reputable repair person ...

[BillP]

Charles, where are you located?  Unless you are within about a 1/4 mile or so from the ocean with pounding surf making lots of spray, their life is still pretty long. I have 8 ac units (in Florida) that were installed in 1985 and are approx 3000' from the ocean. Most lasted 25+ yrs and the last was replaced 18 months ago.   

[Avaiojet]

Bill,

I'm three miles from the coast.

My system lost the R-22 because of a slow leak. Every service person says the same thing.

They say it's time consuming locating leaks and costly. Replacing r-22 is costly also. Laber, could take hours at 100.00 per hour.

This is what I'm getting.

Thanks for the reply and help.

Charles

[Dick Pacini]

Most auto service-centers add a dye whenever they re-charge a system.  Leaks show up under a black light.  I should think the same procedure would be done in a home installation, as long as lines aren't buried in walls.  It is likely a fitting or component that is leaking.

I still think your HVAC repair shops are trying to sell a new system.  Even if labor is $100/hr, why should they care?  It is money in their pocket.  Sounds like a lazy tech, to me.

Perhaps your mind is made up already and you want a new A/C unit.  If that is the case, good luck with it.

[Tim Wescott]

Bill,

I'm three miles from the coast.

My system lost the R-22 because of a slow leak. Every service person says the same thing.

They say it's time consuming locating leaks and costly. Replacing r-22 is costly also. Laber, could take hours at 100.00 per hour.

This is what I'm getting.

Thanks for the reply and help.

Charles

Just last week a guy was out here leak-chasing and recharging my system with R-411 (or whatever the new stuff is).  Yes, they have a dye, and for R-411 they also have a stop-leak which he was enthusiastic about.  Total price was $495.  I'd assume that for R-22 they at least have the dye.

We never did find the leak, but the culprit was either a faulty fill valve (which didn't become apparent until after he checked the pressure, so he couldn't sniff it before) or my condensor -- the valve got replaced, and at the rate that his sniffer was going off, the other would most likely be stopped by the stop leak if it's a problem at all.  And if not, there's the dye.

I'd still be leaning toward repair, or at least to a place that can really explain to me why a replacement is needed.  Hence my suggestion of Angie's list, since I don't know anyone local to you.

[Avaiojet]

You won't believe this.

10 days ago I had cold air. Gradually it deminished. Couple of days ago, absolutely no cold air.

As I said, I did do my homework, well in fact. All visiters wanted to replace everything and all visitors calimed it wouldn't be feasible to just fix it.

OK, so now I go to the Forum.

I would like to thank everyone for their suggestions and help.

Come to find out, my neighbor who recently had a system put in place told me it was put in place only 10 days ago. Interesting because before I knew this, I called the outfit that installed it. I was told it was put in place three month ago.

I took another good look at my compressor and noticed the copper lines were on the ground. Someone stept on them.

Gee, I had cold air ten days ago, a system gets put in place next to my compressor ten days ago, now I don't have cold air.

Coincidence? I didn't think so. Remember, I called these guys for a quote.

I called them this morning, told the girl what had happened, in fact, she knew I called for a quote.

She said she would send someone over. Not 20 minutes later my bell rings. We shake hands and march to the side of the building.

Guy was nice, he actually lisened to me explain why I thought his install guy stept on my line. The line was touching the ground and shouldn't be. Three to four inches off the ground is code. All the other compressor lines were this high.

The guy made no arguement, in fact he agreed with me.

Monday morning a tech will be here to replace the line, fix the leak and re-charge the compressor.

Monday isn't here yet, but this is a good way to end my issue. I hope.

I'll know on Monday.

[Avaiojet]

Wow, someone sabotaged your AC system. I would understand someone who would look, come up with logical reasons for replacement, may be even one or two to keep and let you decide the way to go. Just to sell you work is a poor motive. Good to hear that at least for now, it looks like they will correct this issue without cost. Hopefully that is the case. May be a good time to photograph the damage prior to repair in case needed later.

George,

I don't belive it was deliberate, neither did the guy that came out to look at it. It's tight replacing compressors because they are close. There are three of them next to mine. Mine is on the end, so it will be an easier fix.

See what happens on Monday.

Charles

[BillP]

That's good news! If you paid a company to check this already and they said you needed a new unit I would call them and demand a refund. Leak checking isn't rocket science and any reputable ac tech would should have seen the displaced line...just like you did. 

[RknRusty]

Good going Charles!

[Avaiojet]

That's good news! If you paid a company to check this already and they said you needed a new unit I would call them and demand a refund. Leak checking isn't rocket science and any reputable ac tech would should have seen the displaced line...just like you did. 

Bill,

I bumped into a guy at Home Depot. Told him I'd give him 20.00 to do a  gage test. He followed me the mile and it took him minutes. Lines were empty.

He and I didn't notice the line was on the ground and probably stept on.

I didn't think about that till I spoke with my neighbor.

Good going Charles!

Hey Rusty!

Where have you been? I miss your kudos.

There should be a Thread just on Rattle Can finishing.

A benefit for any modeler that doesn't compete in stunt. Well, not necessarily. You're good with not building weight, right?

Thanks for the replies.
 

[Avaiojet]

My apologies Charles, so you live in a condo, 3 or 4 plex situation? I'd think an experienced refrigeration mechanic would not step on lines.

George,

Clever guy. But I thought about that.

My guess is two tech guys did the install. Two guys came to install 5T at the house we sold two years ago, one worked inside and the other outside.

The guy they did the install for is retired. My guess is, he must have been curious and was just about everywhere. He probably was the one who stept on it? Possibly. I do know it wasn't me.

I also thought if the tech guy did it, he probably would have made the fix immediately.

I would have.

Thanks for the reply.

Hey! Did you see my new Threads. Might wanna take a look while they are still fresh. 

Charles

[Avaiojet]

Fred,

I was trying to watch the 50th Super Bowl but I had this on my mind. It's halftime.

All the words are there for everyone to read. No one else accused me you are the only one?

In fact others are happy for me. I'm happy for me.

At this time I really don't need to spend 3K+ for a system I may or may not need. That concern may not be obvious, but it is.

I strongly believe you should have PM'd me for a chat before voicing, what I consider, incorrect, conclusions in the Forum.

I read "Everything" I said again. I honestly don't get it. Based on what?

Also, your Post opened the door for trolling, as you could see.

It doesn't take much to invite trolling when Avaiojet is concerned. Takes very little.

Please, PM me or Post. We can talk about it.

If you feel you made a mistake simply delete your Post. No big deal.

I'll always extend my hand.

Charles

[RknRusty]

Hey Rusty!
Where have you been? I miss your kudos.
There should be a Thread just on Rattle Can finishing.
A benefit for any modeler that doesn't compete in stunt. Well, not necessarily. You're good with not building weight, right?

Thanks for the replies.

Charles, I've been here but just read a lot more than I post.
I compete in stunt with rattlecan finishes and they fly pretty well anyway. And they come out in about the right weight range, but I haven't built very many stunters.
Rusty

[Avaiojet]

And above all, for this reason one of my favorite Bible passages is Psalms 111:10 [MKJV]: "The fear of the LORD *is* the beginning of wisdom; all practicing them *have* good understanding; His praise stands forever." May the Lord give you wisdom and insight on whether to maintain or replace your HVAC, that you get the right counsel to make a sound decision in this matter, and that your systems gets properly repaired meanwhile.

George,

I know that well and thank you for that. And thank you for the kind reply.

"The beginning of wisdom." Not a bad way to start the day or Restart a troubled life.

Charles

[BillP]

Quoting ASHRAE is fine and dandy...they are great ENGINEERING organization but their life & cost charts are based on private party input, (voluntary so they say and not engineering based) and is a very small portion of the whole picture. Their reporting on this cannot be statistically controlled samplings and is better viewed as a casual data base. Anyone can register and give input.  Only 38,000 (.005%?) ac units were reported to ASHRAE in Florida...but there are 7+ million houses and 19+ million people. In my opinion your local HVAC company has a better handle on ac life expectancy...but if the flat rate book for auto repair is believable to a person then they may consider the ASHRAE life info accurate. Same as using the Means Estimating Book, its always a conservative and high cost estimate. Perspective?  30+ yrs facilities engineering, 12 yrs facility manager (1.2 million sq ft mfg plant), 35 yrs owning numerous residential and commercial rentals. 

[BillP]

Chill dude...its not personal but with all that experience why do you need ASHRAE home ac life charts for planning?  Their random data gathering on this topic is about as statistically flawed as it gets.  Your local ac tech is a better source for ac life in your area.

[john e. holliday]

Charles, I've been here but just read a lot more than I post.
I compete in stunt with rattlecan finishes and they fly pretty well anyway. And they come out in about the right weight range, but I haven't built very many stunters.
Rusty

Rusty, you have the old DOC sold on rattlecan finishes as they are quick to apply and fuel proof after two weeks.

[RknRusty]

All Right, Doc, welcome to the club!
I'm looking forward to showing off my latest piece of rattlecan art, my Fancherized Walt Umland Twister. Soon to come in late March or April.
Rattlecan Rusty