Author Topic: Profile Nobler (Read 17863 times)

Garf · « **on:** January 20, 2011, 03:03:40 PM »

I just wrecked my Noblarf. I plan to rebuild it as a profile. Where would this stand in N30?

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2011, 12:06:58 AM »

Ty...Wouldn't that have been the "Profile Nobler" (with a foam core wing) produced as a kit by Custom Models out of Texas? They kitted the Buccaneers, Forerunner and Profile Nobler. I have two 746 kits, a Forerunner kit (thanks for the plans, Ty!) and a 2nd hand Forerunner (which I have flown, but only in Reno...it needs recovering and refinishing).

Anyway, if that's the one, I don't see any reason for it to be N30 legal, unless there is some evidence that it existed prior to the 30 years prior rule. Sure see no reason why a profile Nobler based on a NoblARF would be N30 legal, since that wing is supposed to be '57 Nobler, so is too early to be N30 legal (so long as you're not allowing Classics to fly in N30). I guess when NoblARFs are 30 years old, it would be legal then...so, round about 2038, you'd be welcome to fly one!

Steve

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2011, 10:35:25 PM »

Well, I may be wrong, after all! No, really! I just now read Randy's pinned post at the top, and it does say that OTS and Classic models would be eligible to compete in N30. I was sure that they were not, in order to encourage building N30 designs. I don't see much incentive to build an N30 model coming from allowing Classics to compete in N30.

What got me confused was the bit about flying N30 together with Classic, same circle, same time, same judges. But you can't enter both events, even with a Classic model. No, you can't enter two models, either. Why not??? But say you have one fella entered in N30 and 10 in Classic. Smart money says to enter N30 with your Classic, if you want another dust collector. Of course, most the Classic guys will just enter Classic, being more interested in competition and all that noble stuff. If you don't enter N30 with your Classic, then that poor solo guy with the N30 plane will take home the 1st place dust collector and feel like it was a hollow victory, ya know? No, I don't see how any of this is a good thing. I'd vote to make folks fly N30's in N30 and Classics in Classic, and if they want to enter both, with two planes, that's fine.

Unlike the Profile Oriental and Profile Cavalier, nobody has stepped up with proof of a Profile Nobler that was Nobler based, prior to 1/1/70, AFAIK. Yes, there's one in PAMPA's plans list, but it has nothing in common with a Nobler of any vintage, except that it does have the propeller up front. That was in my first ever issue of Stunt News, see? Now...the NoblARF wing is related to the '57 Nobler (aka Greenbox), but no profile version existed, so a profile fitted with a NoblARF wing is not Classic legal, so it's not N30 legit, either. That part is pretty simple. The Custom Models (?) kit of the "Profile Nobler" came out in the '90's, so that's not N30 legal either, because it's essentially a new design, based on the Nobler. At least for another 15 years or so. That's also pretty clear. If you have a NoblARF wing, then you can build the rest of the '57 Nobler for it and fly that in N30 or Classic. PSJ has the plans for the '57, I'm sure. If anybody asks, just tell them that the wing was custom built for you by Wu "Bobby" Chong and you're golden...

Steve

EddyR · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2011, 07:06:32 AM »

I agree with Steve flying classic models in N-30 makes it just another classic event.
Ed

EddyR · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2011, 02:45:14 PM »

I remember when classic first started and there were several profile versions of full bodied models and no one said a word. I think they were taking off a few points as we were still doing it at that time. I have pictures and the meets if we need to go there. Jimmy Damerall from the NY area did it at the vintage meet in south Florida in 1994.
Ed

Bill Little · « **Reply #5 on:** January 31, 2011, 04:04:30 PM »

If I could ever find a picture, I had a profile Nobler in 1964 or 1965. It was built from the remains of the '57 GB Nobler I crashed when the up line snapped. As a kid I was more prone to fly with not so good lines. Lines were kinda "spensive! The Nobler kit was only $4.99 at Sky City since it had been opened and one fuselage side was missing. Less than lines cost at the time.

Anyway, a Nobler profile did exist in 1965 at least, but alas no "proof". But I gotta believe I was not the only person to ever do that.........

I cannot see what would detract from using a ARF Nobler wing in a profile Nobler if proof DID exist, Steve. it is the same wing as the '57 GB Nobler..........

Bill

Bill Little · « **Reply #6 on:** January 31, 2011, 04:11:37 PM »

Quote from: Ed Ruane on January 23, 2011, 07:06:32 AM

I agree with Steve flying classic models in N-30 makes it just another classic event. At the recent KOI I signed up for N-30 and then a bunch of classic models flyers signed up.There were no other N-30 models so there would have not been any N-30 event and that would have been OK with me. I flew a new model with two test flights on it so I was not going to beat anyone anyway. I have four well tested classic models I could have flown but I only had room for one plane in the car. At Huntersville we fly Classic and N-30 at the same time but you only can enter one event.
Ed

Hi Eddy,

We normally agree on abut everything, but I am not following you on this one........

Where both Classic AND Nos. 30 offered?

If so, did the "Classic fliers" fly in both classes?

Or was ONLY Nos. 30 offered?

Bill

EddyR · « **Reply #7 on:** February 01, 2011, 06:55:53 AM »

Hi BILL I am sending you a e/mail
Ed

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #8 on:** February 01, 2011, 02:57:13 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on January 31, 2011, 04:11:37 PM

Hi Eddy,

We normally agree on abut everything, but I am not following you on this one........

Where both Classic AND Nos. 30 offered?

If so, did the "Classic fliers" fly in both classes?

Or was ONLY Nos. 30 offered?

Bill

I understood (from reading Ed's post) that there was N30 and Classic, and they were flown together. There were multiple fliers in Classic, but only one in N30. The N30 entrant (Eddy) obviously had to fly for da N30 trophy. But the Classic entrants could apparently have flown N30 or Classic, but not both. That part doesn't make a damned bit of sense to me. Ty and Tom have made up a list of N30 eligible designs. Not a Classic on there, OBTW.

Steve

EddyR · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2011, 04:50:14 PM »

Steve They did not fly together. They were flown as separate events at different times. Classic first and then N-30. Classic flyers were allowed to fly N-30

Ed

Bill Little · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2011, 05:11:15 PM »

hi Steve,

There actually are SEVERAL Classic Legal planes listed on Ty and Tom's lists.

Not the least of which is Bob "Champione's" 1969 NATS winning Sabre. Remember that in Classic, the published date doesn't disqualify a model if it was "designed, built or flown" before Jan. 1, 1970.

Ed sent me an email, seems there was a SNAFU in the running of the two events. But I ma sure that will be cleared before next time. From the brief exposure we have had, running them on the same circle at the same time, and splitting on the scoreboard is the way to go. That way you are only entered in "one", not both, which you declare ahead of time.

Big Bear

RandySmith · « **Reply #11 on:** February 02, 2011, 03:58:45 PM »

" But the Classic entrants could apparently have flown N30 or Classic, but not both. That part doesn't make a damned bit of sense to me."

Hi Steve

Yes you can fly any airplane that is 30 year old, or older, Period ! , make great sense as it just gets more planes ,and people flying, That was the point of it , And Clubs are perfectly free to run 1 circle with both events, or separate the two entirley, Your choice neither is right or wrong, It is just about getting more of teh older historic Airplanes from our past flying, and more people enjoying more flying time.

Regards
Randy

Bill Little · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2011, 05:38:02 PM »

Hi Randy,

It seems the question was if a person should be allowed to enter both classes with the same plane. Especially since the two events were actually flown separately at different times. In that case, "my" opinion would be no. Enter both classes but you have to fly a different plane. Just my opinion.

I understand that when both classes are flown "together" you can only enter one class.

Bill

RandySmith · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2011, 07:57:21 PM »

Quote from: Bill Little on February 02, 2011, 05:38:02 PM

Hi Randy,

It seems the question was if a person should be allowed to enter both classes with the same plane. Especially since the two events were actually flown separately at different times. In that case, "my" opinion would be no. Enter both classes but you have to fly a different plane. Just my opinion.

I understand that when both classes are flown "together" you can only enter one class.

Bill

Hi Bill

I have a 180 degree different opinion on that, They should be allowed to fly whatever plane they want, as long as it is legal, this is ALL ABOUT being "inclusive" rather than trying to stifle participation and being "ex clusive" .
Excluding people or legal planes is not a good idea in the circumstances that they had a contest sites that had plenty of circles, man power, and time.

It boils down to the contest management can do whatever they decide works for them. That is one of the good things about N-30, it has options when it comes to running the event.

regards
Randy

Bill Little · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2011, 08:16:56 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on February 02, 2011, 07:57:21 PM

Hi Bill

I have a 180 degree different opinion on that, They should be allowed to fly whatever plane they want, as long as it is legal, this is ALL ABOUT being "inclusive" rather than trying to stifle participation and being "ex clusive" .
Excluding people or legal planes is not a good idea in the circumstances that they had a contest sites that had plenty of circles, man power, and time.

It boils down to the contest management can do whatever they decide works for them. That is one of the good things about N-30, it has options when it comes to running the event.

regards
Randy

No problem Randy. I have already mentioned, MANY times, that I like the idea of NOS. 30, and I do understand what is a Nos. 30 legal model as well as what is a Classic legal model.

But, I never said anything about not flying a "Legal plane" in either event, nor about being inclusive or exclusive. I said fly two different planes if you enter BOTH events, considering they are both being flown as separate events at different times is my idea of "doing the right thing" if you will. That seems to be the understanding of a few people anyway. You can fly either event with a Classic Legal plane, of course. Heck, your way would make it a LOT easier on me. I could just being one plane and fly in possibly 5 events. All with the same plane, not a problem!

But, why really bother to have two classes if people just fly the same plane in both? (It will increase entry fee income, of course) You can't do it when "both events are being flown together", right? Don't you have to "declare" which event you are flying in under that situation? Or can you just pay two entry fees and get your score posted for both? (I know, the contest administrators can allow whatever they want to allow) Is it just about entries or seeing different planes being flown (the reason for Nos 30 I thought?). Otherwise I would just enter a USA-1, and if I could fly at your level, I would win both events. LOL!!!!

The whole situation occurred (that I am discussing, Ed, that is) through an obvious misconception, that's all. And if Eddy has a misconception then a whole lot of people could have misconceptions.

Thanks,
Bill

RandySmith · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2011, 09:22:08 PM »

But, why really bother to have two classes if people just fly the same plane in both? (It will increase entry fee income, of course) You can't do it when "both events are being flown together", right? Don't you have to "declare" which event you are flying in under that situation? Or can you just pay two entry fees and get your score posted for both? (I know, the contest administrators can allow whatever they want to allow) Is it just about entries or seeing different planes being flown (the reason for Nos 30 I thought?). Otherwise I would just enter a USA-1, and if I could fly at your level, I would win both events. LOL!!!!""

Hi Bill

Yes your correct, you have to declare which event your flying if "both" are ran together, and if they are separate events independant, fly one or both, Your choice

Randy

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #16 on:** February 06, 2011, 05:21:42 PM »

I have a Profile Oriental. I can fly it in Profile, Classic, N-30 and PA. Is that cool, or what?

Steve

RandySmith · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2011, 06:51:30 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on February 06, 2011, 05:21:42 PM

I have a Profile Oriental. I can fly it in Profile, Classic, N-30 and PA. Is that cool, or what? Steve

Yes it is also cool if your traveling to a contest with other people, have a small vehicle, and are limited to how many planes you can take

Randy

Garf · « **Reply #18 on:** February 24, 2011, 05:40:39 PM »

Sounds like it would be up to the CD of the particular contest.

Elwyn Aud · « **Reply #19 on:** March 05, 2011, 07:35:02 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on January 21, 2011, 08:48:24 AM

It would be legal in N30 as GMA had one some one built and he used it for engine tests in the 70's. Some one on this board now owns it and flys it on occassion as I understand it. If I remember it, it was only in clear dope no colors as such.

I think Bob Lipscomb has it now. These pics are from the 2005 DMAA Presidents Day Contest.

Garf · « **Reply #20 on:** March 13, 2011, 08:34:35 PM »

I never quite got a clear answer. Can a profile model with an NoblARF wing fly in either Classic or N-30. While I'm here, where would an upright engined Brodak T-bird fit?

Bill Little · « **Reply #21 on:** March 13, 2011, 10:10:45 PM »

Quote from: Garf on March 13, 2011, 08:34:35 PM

I never quite got a clear answer. Can a profile model with an NoblARF wing fly in either Classic or N-30. While I'm here, where would an upright engined Brodak T-bird fit?

A Brodak kit of the Upright Engine Thunderbird is Classic legal, so it will "fit" in Classic or Nostalgia 30.

Big Bear

Bill Little · « **Reply #22 on:** March 16, 2011, 02:56:03 PM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on March 14, 2011, 08:19:37 PM

Hi Phil. I'm not sure, but I seen no reason to not let it fly in N30. It's not like the winner of that event at any contest is going to rule the world, just get, if he wins, a hunk of dust collector and a few moments of tiny glory until the next day, when it wears off.
I would assume this is up to what ever CD at any given contest. It is not a life and death matter. It's toy ariplanes and having fun as you well know. At any rate, it can be flown in Profile.

Hi TY,

You are 100% correct. (and the following is not directly aimed at you

) The events (OTS/Classic/Nos.30) are supposed to be "FUN" events. Plus there are no provisions for disqualification. Again, there are no provisions for disqualification. Only a model deemed "unsafe" can be DQ'ed. A CD cannot "legally" say, "Bill you are not allowed to fly the "XYZ" in Classic.......... there is no RULE preventing it. Heck, as has been pointed out in teh past, I could paint "Nobler" on the wing of an Impact and fly it in Classic, "legally". And why should "Joe Bellcrank" (not referring to Joe Just! LOL!!) care if I fly a Profile Nobler in Classic? If someone wants a "trophy" that bad, I would buy them one. I am fully aware that I will not win a Trophy unless there are only three people entered.

We all know there were plenty of Profile Noblers built in the '60s, '70s, and beyond, from wings that survived the crash of a '57 Green Box Nobler kit. I know I had one before Jan.1, 1970. I cannot understand why some people are so worried about "legality" since there is really no provisions for "Legality"! LOL!! It is COMPLETELY up to the competitor whether or not he/she is comfortable with their entry meeting the guidelines. I would be TOTALLY comfortable in flying a Profile Nobler in Classic or Nos. 30. And no ED/CD would have a leg to stand on if they wanted to say I couldn't. Have the rules changed?

Anyway, plenty of people DO modify existing "legal" (and that term, in actuality, really means nothing) models............

Big Bear

John Miller · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:29:53 PM »

Hi Ty, I'll ask Gordy tomorrow. I know that he and several others commonally re-used wings from wrecked airplanes. Noble - chickens, Thunder - chickens, and Sky - chickens were common in the area.

He didn't start using the Pathfinder style fuselage until the 80's if my memory is correct though.

Garf · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2011, 03:04:55 PM »

I severely damaged the T-bird fighting the engine run. Since I never got a definitive answer on the profile Nobler, I set that one aside. Next is whether the Sig Mustang Stunter qualifies for either N-30 or Classic.

Bill Little · « **Reply #25 on:** April 07, 2011, 04:27:07 PM »

Quote from: Garf on April 03, 2011, 03:04:55 PM

I severely damaged the T-bird fighting the engine run. Since I never got a definitive answer on the profile Nobler, I set that one aside. Next is whether the Sig Mustang Stunter qualifies for either N-30 or Classic.

N-30

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #26 on:** April 12, 2011, 12:27:40 AM »

Gents,

This Fall - Sept 24 and 25 to be specific - out here in the wild Tucson desert that was so kind to the 2011 VSC, we will offer BOTH Classic and NOS-30 - in the following way:

BOTH events will fly in the same "event block" (flight order) before the same judges. Entrants will declare their enty as either Classic OR NOS-30 when they register to fly. They may enter either Classic or NOS-30 - but not BOTH.

Event scores and placings will be "segregated" at the scoreboard.

The flier announcing the 2011 Karl Marcshinke Memorial CL Contest should be available (shortly, at least) at http://ccmaconline.org/

We made a vauge attmpt at offering Nos-30 or a variant in recent years, without much support. We hope this year will see more participation!

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #27 on:** April 12, 2011, 03:21:09 PM »

I recall seeing, sometime in the distant past, an ad for a Nobler kit with a fiberglass full fuselage and foam wings.

Allen Brickhaus · « **Reply #28 on:** May 26, 2011, 01:03:10 PM »

Quote from: Steve Helmick on January 22, 2011, 12:06:58 AM

Ty...Wouldn't that have been the "Profile Nobler" (with a foam core wing) produced as a kit by Custom Models out of Texas? They kitted the Buccaneers, Forerunner and Profile Nobler. I have two 746 kits, a Forerunner kit (thanks for the plans, Ty!) and a 2nd hand Forerunner (which I have flown, but only in Reno...it needs recovering and refinishing).

Anyway, if that's the one, I don't see any reason for it to be N30 legal, unless there is some evidence that it existed prior to the 30 years prior rule. Sure see no reason why a profile Nobler based on a NoblARF would be N30 legal, since that wing is supposed to be '57 Nobler, so is too early to be N30 legal (so long as you're not allowing Classics to fly in N30). I guess when NoblARFs are 30 years old, it would be legal then...so, round about 2038, you'd be welcome to fly one! Steve

Also the profile Scimitar

Allen Brickhaus

RandySmith · « **Reply #29 on:** May 26, 2011, 03:03:46 PM »

Quote from: Garf on April 03, 2011, 03:04:55 PM

I severely damaged the T-bird fighting the engine run. Since I never got a definitive answer on the profile Nobler, I set that one aside. Next is whether the Sig Mustang Stunter qualifies for either N-30 or Classic.

The answer is YES, the only thing you could possibly get "hit " with is a few appearance points docking

Randy

EddyR · « **Reply #30 on:** May 28, 2011, 09:02:56 PM »

How about a full body of a plane that was only offered as a profile. Yes in classic. Are the rules the same in N-30??
Ed

Garf · « **Reply #31 on:** June 01, 2011, 12:52:39 PM »

Quote from: Garf on April 03, 2011, 03:04:55 PM

I severely damaged the T-bird fighting the engine run. Since I never got a definitive answer on the profile Nobler, I set that one aside. Next is whether the Sig Mustang Stunter qualifies for either N-30 or Classic.

After crashing the Sig Mustang attempting to use it in N-30 at the KOI, The remains were left hanging from the windsock pole at the field. I need to move on to some better airplanes.

Bill Little · « **Reply #32 on:** June 01, 2011, 01:29:39 PM »

Quote from: Allen Brickhaus on May 26, 2011, 01:03:10 PM

Also the profile Scimitar

Allen Brickhaus

How about the Profile Impala?

Big Bear

Garf · « **Reply #33 on:** December 30, 2012, 06:37:37 PM »

What I get from all this is that the profile NoblARF should be legal in Classic OR N30, but it is up to the contest management.

Joseph Lijoi · « **Reply #34 on:** January 02, 2013, 04:22:29 PM »

Quote from: RandySmith on February 02, 2011, 07:57:21 PM

Hi Bill

I have a 180 degree different opinion on that, They should be allowed to fly whatever plane they want, as long as it is legal, this is ALL ABOUT being "inclusive" rather than trying to stifle participation and being "ex clusive" .
Excluding people or legal planes is not a good idea in the circumstances that they had a contest sites that had plenty of circles, man power, and time.

It boils down to the contest management can do whatever they decide works for them. That is one of the good things about N-30, it has options when it comes to running the event.

regards
Randy

Right on Randy.

I would bet money that someone has built a classic legal profile Nobler. If Bill Little says he had one then that is good enough for me. No picture required.

Garf · « **Reply #35 on:** December 09, 2013, 03:01:31 PM »

It seems to me that a profile Nobler should be allowed in one or the other event, but since both of my profile Noblers are currently damaged, I need to move on to plan "B".

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #36 on:** December 16, 2013, 11:25:08 AM »

Like Randy said, it'd be great to allow everybody to fly everything they brought. If a guy has a '57 Nobler and an N-30 (only) airplane, I think it would be great to allow them to fly both planes, and enter both classes, even if they are flown at the same time, on the same circle, in front of the same judges. This would increase the number of real N-30 planes being built and flown.

But the discussion was supposed to be about whether there is any evidence of a Profile (GMA) Nobler existing before the end of '69. It would be great if there is evidence, but I would like to see it before I allow one to enter Classic...or N30. FWIW, we've had a guy flying a profile Nobler based on the ARF in contests for several years. It's allowed, but according to the rules, I don't see how you can just assume it's legal because "somebody must have done it".

On the other hand, if Bill Little wrote an afidavit stating that he built a profile Nobler in '64 or '65 from the remains of a GB Nobler, that the profile was a copy of the side view of a Nobler (or close), then that should be taken up by the officials at PAMPA and a decision made. Just as when the Firecat was decided to be OTS legit. Nobody got butthurt over that, AFAIK.

Steve