Author Topic: New Stunt design from the Adamisin Stable (Read 9864 times)

Archie Adamisin · « **on:** May 05, 2008, 01:37:07 PM »

It has been awhile since I have last posted here, but I have been very busy in on the computer and in the shop working on a new project. After all the success we have had with converting the Brodak Oriental ARF to electric flight, I had to ask the question, what does an electric stunter look like? When I competed in the nats as a senior and advanced flier, many people might remember the Gemini series with the long wing and "V-tail". I took it a step farther when I built Gemini III with the longer plug in wing, fiberglass fuse, and anhedral tail. Both of these airplanes had uniqueness to them and were very clean aerodynamically, but were built for IC engines. After seeing the many benefits of electric power and being accustomed to molded airframes, I have designed a ground up electric stunt airframe based off lessons learned from Gemini, Uncle Dennis' Eclipse, & dad's Starship tri-plane. I am calling it the Versa Stunter.

The Versa Stunter will be 100% composite using zero balsa wood in the airframe. Molds will be made from CNC'd plugs. I have been in the tooling trade for the past 12 years and it has blessed me with the ability to 3D model using CAD. Specifications on the airframe are as follows:

Wing span 64"
Wing Area 625 sq. in
Fuse Length 44 "
Tail Area 125 sq in
Tail Span 27"

The tail will be molded flat, but can be cut and rejoined at any angle if desired. It can be used flat as well. The reason for Versa would be that the airframe is versatile. Without the molded wing fillets on the fuselage, it can be fitted with any wing desired. The canopy is also separate so any look can be achieved. It also can be outfitted with an IC engine if desired. Plans are to use a Turnigy 35-36-1100 on 4S 3000's spinning an 11 x 5.5 prop. I also plan to build one using an Evo .36 to .52. Early weight predictions are in the low 50 oz range with either electric or IC.

I will continue to post with pictures of my progress with this project. I hope to have it flying soon.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Mark Scarborough · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2008, 01:40:24 PM »

fascinating, I look forward to further progress. I to feel that the design for electric puropose built plane has yet to be realized. I know some are aproaching it but wonder if there is further thought to optimize the assests of electric.

Randy Powell · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2008, 05:11:26 PM »

Looks remarkably like other planes from the Adamisin stable. Must be a genetic component. I like it.

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2008, 07:34:20 PM »

Looks a bit like one o' them RPV thangs...

Steve

Dwayne · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2008, 08:02:03 PM »

Quote from: Randy Powell on May 05, 2008, 05:11:26 PM

Looks remarkably like other planes from the Adamisin stable. Must be a genetic component. I like it.

Yup sure does! V-tail and high aspetc ratio wings, and I like it too.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2008, 08:53:34 PM »

HA, so even the RPV guys are copying us!!!

All seriousness aside, as Archie described and Randy & Dwayne noted, there is a lot of Adamisin design heritage here. What might not be apparent is just how squeeky clean this thing is. Like Mark pointed out, we think that there ARE some features that will make a purpose built electric stunter unique. However along the way we determined that it would also be a nice "gassie" using even a smallish engine.

The e-power version will have basically no protuberances at all. The high AR wing is inherantly very low drag in manuvers and that is helped by the blended airfoils and such. Ultra low drag is GOOD when you also have e-power in governor mode, or "slimer" power with a big flat pitch prop disk.

However, I think the real story of the Versa is the all-composite construction. Arch & Archie have been making composite pylon racers for several years, this is their first Stunter via that method. Obviously this "solves" the balsa supply problem completely! Designing it as a CAD solid model Archie was able to do a really good job creating the fuselage cross section that is all elliptic sections - great for composite construction and should be very easy to mold.

Garf · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2008, 09:59:44 PM »

Will this be sold to the "public"? If so, what kind of $ are we looking at?

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #7 on:** May 06, 2008, 07:50:42 AM »

Thanks for all the kind words. It has certainly been a work in progress. The outlines, moments and airfoils are all known, but the all composite construction will need some development. Electric airframes don't go through the same stresses as IC airframes do so a common schedule will be difficult. I have a rough idea of the layup schedule, but the details are to be determined. I have attached some photos of the side, top, and individual components as they will be molded.

Garf, if this design is as successful as anticipated, I will sell them to the public. I won't make it available until it has been tested, and pricing is dependant on what the final layup schedule is. It would also be nice to make the seperate components available so you can make your own. The possibilities for this design are endless. The first will look like this by choice because of my success with the long wing "V-tail" design. I have visions of a twin rudder look, wing mounted gear, an anhedral tail with rudder, and so on. With the fuse shape, it is open to anyones imagination.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #8 on:** May 06, 2008, 08:06:22 AM »

Archie,
Nice design. I have a question. Why only a 20% tail volume? More recently we have seen new designs going as far as a 29% tail volume. I was just wondering what your thoughts are on this.

Thanks.

Garf · « **Reply #9 on:** May 06, 2008, 08:27:39 AM »

We will be waiting.

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2008, 09:08:49 AM »

Chris,

The long tail moment and high aspect ratio allow the use of a smaller tail percentage to do the work and also decrease drag. This airframe was designed using lessons learned from the Eclipse, Gemini I, Gemini III when it comes to the force arrangements. After learning what the electric power system had to offer with the lighter batteries and RPM governor, this design was begging to be done.

With this being said, if someone wanted to put a bigger tail on it, the tail slot in the fuse is wide enough to accept it. The great opportunity Versa Stunter brings to the table is the ability to build anything you want with a common fuselage. I plan to do a bunch of experimenting with this design using many different wing planforms, tail combinations, etc.. The decision to go with this particular planform in a molded model was because it is where I left off when I quit flying in 1993 and it is what I know. I have a notebook full of different stuff that will definitely be tried after the first Versa stunter flies.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #11 on:** May 07, 2008, 10:19:28 AM »

I have got pictures of the plugs as received from the machinist. Here they are in the raw. They were cut on a CNC router using MDF board. The groove around the plug is to aid in finishing. It will be filled with parafin wax to obtain a good square edge on the mold flange. The plugs will now be finished using West System Epoxy and 3/4 oz fiberglass cloth. I will post pictures as we progress through the finishing process.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #12 on:** May 07, 2008, 10:43:03 AM »

WOW TOOO COOOL

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #13 on:** May 07, 2008, 01:20:57 PM »

Mike,

CAD is cool , but holding solid pieces is better. You loose the concept of scale in CAD. It didn't look too big in CAD, but it is certainly bigger in person.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #14 on:** May 07, 2008, 02:37:38 PM »

I'm totally impressed. I think you are really on to something. I remember your Gemini in Flying Models I was flying RC gliders in competition then and thought your fuse was great. I even took a glider fuse and seriously thought about building a stunter around it.

Will Hinton · « **Reply #15 on:** May 07, 2008, 05:27:44 PM »

Lookin' great Archie! Typical family precision there!
Will

Wynn Robins · « **Reply #16 on:** May 07, 2008, 07:37:22 PM »

two questions

How much?

When can I buy one?

That is WAY cool - as mentioned by others.

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #17 on:** May 08, 2008, 10:30:25 AM »

Wynn,

Well, I would like to tell you a price, but we need to get all the particulars in order first. We would like to sell the kits as ready to assemble with all the components shown and most of the hardware needed to complete it. We have considered selling components separately like a fuse kit with tube and either glow or electric firewall. Too many open items yet to nail it down. The goal is to have it all figured out by June 1st. If all goes well, we could have kits available at the Brodak flyin. There is a lot of work to do between now and then , so I don't want to make any commitments before we know we can make them happen.

I'll post some more pictures as we get closer.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Shultzie · « **Reply #18 on:** May 08, 2008, 10:40:44 AM »

ARCHIE...ARCHIE...ARCHIE!!!! "A NEW DAY DAWNUTH!" THE ADAMISIN STABLE DOES IT AGAIN!

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #19 on:** May 08, 2008, 01:40:43 PM »

Here are some more progress photos for you to see We have gotten the glass on the plugs and will then add a flow coat to seal the glass before final wet sanding, primer, and paint. Getting closer!!!

Archie Adamisin

Muncie, Indiana

Mike Spiess · « **Reply #20 on:** May 08, 2008, 04:59:38 PM »

Keep us updated this looks neat.

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2008, 09:40:35 AM »

Here are the latest photos of our progress. The fuse plug is done ready to make the mold. The wings and stab are ready to prime and paint. WE should a complete set of molds by the end of next week. The fuse was primed and painted with Dupli-Color automotive spraycan paint. It works great is is fairly inexpensive. Easy to apply with little cleanup. The fuse mold will be made so that the front will be the end of the mold and can be used to trim the nose ring off square. The wing tube hole and anti-rotation pin holes will be molded in.

I will post more later.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Randy Powell · « **Reply #22 on:** May 16, 2008, 10:49:48 AM »

Archie,

Looks very good. Almost looks like a boatwork in there.

Doug Moon · « **Reply #23 on:** May 16, 2008, 03:20:49 PM »

I am so jealous. It is so fun to do that stuff. I loved it when I built my wing.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #24 on:** May 17, 2008, 07:40:15 AM »

Super work going on with your plane. Hate to think what it cost to make the molds. I wonder how many people are going to protest your composite kit when someone assembles it. As long as we have PAMPA classes there is no problem with it. My main question is: Can you keep it below a grand in price as I have just paid $200.00 for an ARF. Anyway keep up the super work. DOC Holliday

Leester · « **Reply #25 on:** May 17, 2008, 09:41:28 AM »

Windys wings range from $575 to $1150, ain't gonna be cheap.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #26 on:** May 17, 2008, 07:24:03 PM »

Hey Doc:
I suggested to Archie that he hire a East European to mold all the parts - then it will fit the existing BOM definition!

All seriousness aside, Archie has done a great job with composite Pylon racers in the past, that is why he was confident enough to invest all the time and $$$$ in the plugs & molds for a stunter. That is also why he based it on successful previous designs. However, he also put some flexibility in the components - just in case he has to redesign something: the wing goes with that fuselage, but the fuselage can accept any number of wings. The stab can be used anywhere.

I still think the real story here is that it is a state of the art composite construction that (last I heard) has no balsa in it. Note I said "State of the Art" - but really it is about 10-15 years behind the Pylon racers and Sailplanes. Maybe I should call it State of the ARCHIE!

Not to be cute, but Archie has not (yet) commited to producing & selling components nor to producing a complete component kit - and really can't until he gets one together and flies it. From conversations I've had with Archie in the past, I be surprised if he ever does custom-painting complete models - so the level of prefab will be lower than Yatshenko's bird - and frankly last year's ruling on the Shark means by comparison, Archie's meets BOM. If he does ever sell a composite kit that still requires painting and finishing that is MORE BOM content than the East Euro ships...

He Leester: for $1150 I think I would be willing to LEARN HOW to mold a wing to sellya!

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #27 on:** May 18, 2008, 08:09:08 PM »

We have made some more progress this weekend. These photos show the fuse plugs being transformed into molds. It will take (2) days for the mold material to fully cure, but seeing the molds take shape should make for some good conversation. The surface of the molds are made with (2) coats of aluminum filled high temperature surfacing resin. The Yellow/Green color material is a pattern making dough to build the thickness of the mold to add strength and maintain the integrity of the mold. The wing molds are slated for next weekend. We have to pot in the hinge lines with the correct angles and depth. The wing & tail will come out of the mold prehinged. I will post when that is finished.

As far as a BOM issue if we decide to market a composite kit of this model, I certainly hope that with all the prefabricated components that are used in our event, this model is only different in the way it is constructed. It still will have to to be finished. Out of the molds, I could finish (1) ready to paint in 40 hours. The kit would be far from an ARF.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #28 on:** May 20, 2008, 10:27:42 AM »

More news from Adamisin Muncie workshop. The molds are off the plugs. They came off with very little trouble as you would hope and are in the flesh. The molds now need some cleanup on a belt sander and to be polished, waxed and mold released. A wet lay up method will be used to make the fuselage using he following schedule:

(1) layer of 2oz glass
(1) 2oz doubler from the nose ring to behind the wing
(1) 6 oz nose ring doubler 2" wide
(1) layer of 6oz glass

We use a high temperature laminating epoxy to mold the body. Even though the batteries won't get terribly warm, the glue is very strong and holds up well. I will post with weights as soon as we pull Versa #1.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Doug Moon · « **Reply #29 on:** May 20, 2008, 02:18:19 PM »

Archie,

What did you use to fill in the back of your mold to make it rigid so it wont flex when it is in the vacuum bag?

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #30 on:** May 20, 2008, 09:16:58 PM »

Doug,

The yellow/green colored material on the back of the mold is pattern making (2) part epoxy dough. It is available through Resin Services. The fuse mold is not planned to be vacuum bagged unless we use carbon fiber. We are shooting for a 5-7 oz fuse weight with a wet layup. The mold will be stiff enough to handle the vacuum pressure if we find it necessary to do so. It also increases the time to cycle the molds which is why we would prefer not to bag the fuse. The wing and tail will be bagged. These molds will be built using 3/4" end grain balsa as a backer to keep the weight down and the stiffness up.

Archie Adamisin

Muncie, Indiana

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #31 on:** May 24, 2008, 01:29:14 AM »

We made some more progress this week. I have attached pictures of the potting process used to make the hinge lines at the proper angle and depth required to pre-hinge the surfaces in the mold. Sealed hinglines out of the mold? Uncle Dennis will be proud!!

The female molds required to make parts will have a wedge in them that the hing material will be glued to top & bottom. (1) cut at the root surface and (1) at the tip and the control surface will move. The Plug in wing tubes and locating pis would be installed in the bottom wing mold before it is joined. The wing and tail will also be vacuum bagged. The final picture shown is the bottom inboard wing plug which shows the threaded inserts that are laid up into the mold. We used brass knurled casting inserts #10-24. These hold good threads to ensure the molds will bolt up tight.

Locating jigs are being made to locate the tube spar sockets and locating pins the same everytime.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, indiana

john e. holliday · « **Reply #32 on:** May 26, 2008, 07:23:11 AM »

Archie, your work looks great and looks like a lot of trouble. Trying to get Dave Trible to come on this site and check out your work. Uncle Dennis can tell you who he is. DOC Holliday

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #33 on:** May 27, 2008, 07:43:15 AM »

Just realized I forgot to post the ready to mold picture. Here it is. The second picture is the stack-o-molds ready to be cleaned up. This weekend was very fruitful.

Doc, what kind of trouble you referring to? pulling a wing and tail out of the mold ready to paint is worth the extra effort

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #34 on:** May 27, 2008, 11:43:28 AM »

Here is a picture of the first Versa fuselage out of the mold. My 3 yr old son is very proud to be holding it. The fuse weight with tail hatch and canopy is 7 oz. Not too bad for the first part, but we would like to get 1.5 to 2ozs out of it. The wet lay-up process is capable of this with some practice.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana

John Sunderland · « **Reply #35 on:** July 20, 2008, 05:05:22 PM »

Thought I might ask about the progress of this venture? Whats happenin'?

John Sunderland

Archie Adamisin · « **Reply #36 on:** July 20, 2008, 07:59:54 PM »

John,

Progress was great. We have run into some problems with alignment and lay-up schedules. We are still moving forward, but slowly. We have some good direction and should have further reports soon. Thanks for your interest.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana