Tom Warden's Trophy Trainer

[Andrew Borgogna]

Many years ago I met Tom Warden, but since I was new to precision aerobatics I really didn't know what a force he was in the hobby.   He allowed a newbie like myself to fly with him and his friends even when they were preparing for the Nat's.  Tom took me to his house one day and recommended I build one his Trophy Trainers as a means to improve my skills.  I bought a set of plans for $10.00.  On the table he had two Continentals in the final stage of finish for the Nat's.  The year would have been 1969 or 1970, anyway to make a long story short I built and flew the Trophy Trainer and liked it very much.  Does anybody out there know where I can get a set of plans to build another.  Also now that RSM is kitting the Continental I plan to pick up one for a future build.  I can still remember Tom's planes they were truly works of art.  It was the first time I had ever seen panel lines on a model plane, the man could really build.
Andy

[Ron Merrill]

Andrew, try Walter Umland. He sold a kit of the Trophy Trainer a while back.  Ron.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Thanks Ron I will do that.
Andy

[Peter Hess]

PAMPA Products lists a Trophy Trainer in its available plans, but it attributes it to Bob Kruger.  At the risk of depriving Bob of credit for something he might have designed, it is possible that Bob drew one of his beautiful plans of Warden's design.  If I am wrong about this, my apologies to Mr. Kruger.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Well if I am wrong my apologies as well to Mr. Kruger.  There is the possibility that there were two different Trophy Trainers as was the case with the Ringmaster.  I do remember getting the plans from Tom Warden, but it was 38 years ago and things do get cloudy with time.  I have talked to others, most recently Bob Whitely just a couple of weeks ago and he seem to agree that Tom had designed the Trophy Trainer.  From Bob's story of Tom, he knewTom much better than I did, the way I remembered jived with Bob's recollection of thoughts days.  I only knew Tom for a few months then my first son was born and my modeling took back seat for a few years. 

I did send a email to Walter Umland and I am waiting to hear back from him.  If anyone else has input please speak up.

Andy

[Andrew Borgogna]

I did a google search on the Trophy Trainer and I found this information.  From a plans service "Model Aircraft Plans" they had to the following listing.  I do remember the plane had a constant cord and it did have flaps and it was a profile.  I plan to order a set of these plans, funny the price has not changed in 38 years.
********************************************************************************************
Trophy Trainer.  52 inch span, simplified profile stunt trainer for .25 to .40 size engines.  Coupled flaps, constant cord wing.  Designed by Tom Warden in 1960.   Plan drawn and simplified by Bill Noyes in 1992.  One sheet, 30 x 42.  $ 10.00.
********************************************************************************************
Andy

[Elwyn Aud]

[Bob Kruger]

PAMPA Products lists a Trophy Trainer in its available plans, but it attributes it to Bob Kruger.  At the risk of depriving Bob of credit for something he might have designed, it is possible that Bob drew one of his beautiful plans of Warden's design.  If I am wrong about this, my apologies to Mr. Kruger.

Peter;

Wow.  This one is embarasingly bad

You are correct - I merely drew the Trophy Trainer in CAD and had the plans checked by Tom Lay against an original in his collection.  I have never noticed my name on the order form. I certainly would not want to deprive Mr. Warden credit for a wonderful design and never intended to do so.  The plans carried by PAMPA carry full attribution to Tom Warden for the design.  I just did the nug work with a mouse....

I have gone to the PAMPA web site and changed the attribution on the order form that can be downloaded as well as the order form that will be in the next Stunt News.

According to Tom Lay, the plans sold by Bill Noyes are not the original Trophy Trainer.  There is some debate to that.  Suffice it to say, the version that I drew and are available through PAMPA products were checked against a Warden original that Tom Lay owns.  Note - my first version of the Trophy Trainer was a copy of the Noyes - just my copy was significantly degraded because they were a copy of a copy of a copy of a ....   When I sent them to Tom for review, his response was "Well, you got the rudder right...."  The result was a complete redo, save for the rudder.

I hope that clears things up.

Thanks for the "heads up."

V/r

Bob Kruger

[Peter Hess]

Hi, Bob:

When I saw Andy's original post I just remembered having seen the plan for a Trophy Trainer listed on the PAMPA Products order form.  At that time I knew nothing about the plane except that it had the same name as the plane for which Andy was seeking plans.  For all I knew they could have been two completely different planes.  On the other hand I knew what beautiful plans you drew and thought that the PAMPA product could have been an update which, it turns out, it was.  I am sorry if the way I made the suggestion embarrassed you because there certainly was no intention of doing so.

You might not recall, but several years ago you were very generous to me in connection with my interest in the Fancherized Twister.  Not only did you send me a copy of your then latest update of the drawing, but you also answered some questions for me and sent me a .dxf file of the ribs for a C-tube version.  I had several sets of those ribs cut by Kyle Tankersley but promptly gave them away.  However, over the last week copies of your drawing have been getting a lot of use inasmuch as I am, finally, cutting parts  for two FTs for the coming summer.  Thank you for all the help you gave me.  It has finally borne fruit.

[Bob Kruger]

Pete;

Of course I remember our previous correspondence.  As old as I have gotten, I am not that old.....

This hobby of ours is all about sharing.  Sharing knowledge, sharing wisdom, sharing ....  I am glad to hear that you have gotten some use out of the Fancher Twister files.  The Fancher Twister was my first attempt at a CAD drawing that was worthy of public release - and to this day I cringe at all the mistakes I made.  It was through the help of many that it got to the point that it transitioned from a working file that I could rough something from  to a plan that was marginally suitable for public distribution.

But, again, this hobby is about sharing.  I have always been amazed that I could email Bob Hunt, Ted Fancher, Paul Walker, Al Rabe, et al, ask a question, and get the base truth.  Same goes for the CAD gurus, namely Pat Johnston, Larry Cunningham, and Geoff Goodworth.  There are no real secrets, just sound approaches and lots of practice.  Key to that is to give credit where it is due.

I don't know how the error on the PAMPA price list occured.  It doesn't really matter - there was no malice, and it is fixed.  I don't know how long the error existed, and my only regret or embarassment is that no one notified me (or someone) earlier to ID the error.  But, its fixed now, and that is all important.

My sincere thanks of your bringing it to my attention.

Tight lines, Pete.

V/r

Bob Kruger

Hi, Bob:

When I saw Andy's original post I just remembered having seen the plan for a Trophy Trainer listed on the PAMPA Products order form.  At that time I knew nothing about the plane except that it had the same name as the plane for which Andy was seeking plans.  For all I knew they could have been two completely different planes.  On the other hand I knew what beautiful plans you drew and thought that the PAMPA product could have been an update which, it turns out, it was.  I am sorry if the way I made the suggestion embarrassed you because there certainly was no intention of doing so.

You might not recall, but several years ago you were very generous to me in connection with my interest in the Fancherized Twister.  Not only did you send me a copy of your then latest update of the drawing, but you also answered some questions for me and sent me a .dxf file of the ribs for a C-tube version.  I had several sets of those ribs cut by Kyle Tankersley but promptly gave them away.  However, over the last week copies of your drawing have been getting a lot of use inasmuch as I am, finally, cutting parts  for two FTs for the coming summer.  Thank you for all the help you gave me.  It has finally borne fruit.

[Bob Kruger]

Andy;

The Trophy Trainer listed in the PAMPA products price list is based on a Tom Warden original currently owned by Tom Lay.  Tom did the QC check on the plans against the original prior to publication.  The attribution on the price list is incorrect and is now fixed. 

My apologies for any confusion.

V/r

Bob Kruger

Many years ago I met Tom Warden, but since I was new to precision aerobatics I really didn't know what a force he was in the hobby.   He allowed a newbie like myself to fly with him and his friends even when they were preparing for the Nat's.  Tom took me to his house one day and recommended I build one his Trophy Trainers as a means to improve my skills.  I bought a set of plans for $10.00.  On the table he had two Continentals in the final stage of finish for the Nat's.  The year would have been 1969 or 1970, anyway to make a long story short I built and flew the Trophy Trainer and liked it very much.  Does anybody out there know where I can get a set of plans to build another.  Also now that RSM is kitting the Continental I plan to pick up one for a future build.  I can still remember Tom's planes they were truly works of art.  It was the first time I had ever seen panel lines on a model plane, the man could really build.
Andy

[Andrew Borgogna]

Oh good guys I am not going nuts.  I really want to build the Trophy Trainer to honor Tom Warden.  He was such a nice guy to me, the guy was getting ready to make a serious attempt on the Nat's yet he had plenty of time to help me get started.  By the way the picture of the Trophy Trainer is the plane I remember, it was easy to build and it flew great.  If I don't hear form Len over at SSW I will send off to PAMPA and get the copy Bob inked.  I am sure it is an accurate version.  I do feel kind of sad that I didn't hang on to Tom Warden's original set of plans, I got them right from Tom.  Like I said at the time I really didn't know what a force he was in our hobby.  The more I talk to people who knew him well the more I realize how lucky I was to know him.
Andy

[RC Storick]

I wounder how many can say they have flown the original TT? I can. The TT was Painted to look like the Continental for a movie they made. Tom would not let them fly it so he made the TT to look alike. Tom Lay has the details on this movie. I used to fly with Tom W and Bill Noyes in CA. in the late 60tys.

Those were the days. As a mater of fact it cam up in conversation of what I was doing the day they landed on the Moon. Summers day July 20, 1969, Back patio listening to the radio ,starting a bright orange VooDoo.

[builditright]

I wounder how many can say they have flown the original TT? I can. The TT was Painted to look like the Continental for a movie they made. Tom would not let them fly it so he made the TT to look alike. Tom Lay has the details on this movie. I used to fly with Tom W and Bill Noyes in CA. in the late 60tys.

Those were the days. As a mater of fact it cam up in conversation of what I was doing the day they landed on the Moon. Summers day July 20, 1969, Back patio listening to the radio ,starting a bright orange VooDoo.

here's pic's Tom Lay sent me of T.W. and the Orig T.T.

 

[Andrew Borgogna]

Thanks Walter for the pictures, I saved them off and try to do mine in the same color scheme.  I never saw the original, mine was done with transparent orange monokote on the wing and clear dope on the rest of it.  Needless to say it would not have won any prizes for appearance.  The picture of Top holding the plane looks like it was taken back on the circle we flew on at Whitter Narrows back then.  The fence separates the field from a wooded area that is still there today.  Back then there were four circles all grass and the control line area was separated from the R/C area by fence.  Tom and his friends flew in the back corner nearest the R/C area, there was always four or five people with Tom. 
Andy

[Larry Cunningham]

I would like to have met Tom personally. Back in 1996 when I was editing Stunt News,
I called him to ask about plans for the Minado. He was very sick, his diabetes had put
him in the hospital. He sounded very tired, and answered that he really didn't have any
suitable plans for the Minado.

At the time I saw the Minado at a VSC, I was unaware of its designer, I only thought this
was one of the most beautiful stunters I had ever seen. I took a photo of it which was
on the original PAMPA site, and has subsequently appeared several times when people
were discussing the Minado.

From what I hear about Tom, he was a master modeler, but also an interesting character.
No doubt he looks down seeing us all still admiring his work.

L.

PS - Kruger, please.. Cunningham a CAD guru? Catch my eyes. It is YOU my friend
who taught and helped me.

Consider that thanks to our model airplane hobby, we had something that forced us
to learn a little AutoCAD!  It reminds me of high school, where I took typing to be "near"
a girl I liked - ended up losing the girl, but the typing was one of the most valuable skills!
Serendipity.

Best regards, Bob. ;->

"FUTURE, n: That period of time in which our affairs prosper, our friends are true, and
 our happiness is assured." -Ambrose Bierce

[Bill Little]

Tom's designs and models are legendary and beautiful, for sure.

I like way too many models.  The TT is one I have had plans for over a long period of time.  (Thanks, Bob!)   Just SO MANY models .......... SO MANY!

[Randy Powell]

I also remember in the early 70s there was a foam wing kit of the Trophy Trainer. My cousin had one. He offered to give it to me when I went off to college. Wish I would have taken it.

[Andrew Borgogna]

Randy
Do you remember if by chance the foam wing kit was from Midwest?  I do seem to remember seeing that in the hobby shop back then.
Andy

[Chris McMillin]

I also remember in the early 70s there was a foam wing kit of the Trophy Trainer. My cousin had one. He offered to give it to me when I went off to college. Wish I would have taken it.

Randy,
I flew what I recall as the prototype of Tom's foam winged Trophy Trainers around '69 or '70 with a Tigre 46. It was brand new with a few flights on it, metallic red and the tank was attached with the new "space age" GE Silicone Rubber. I looped it and did some lazy eights, because I was afraid to crash it (I was nine or ten). The occasion was a Whittier contest in which the two events were Clobber (suicide demolition derby, last man standing wins), and Weight Lift. Dad "Clobbered" my Stallion 35 Warrior before the contest but he won Weight Lift with a Magician powered with a Torpedo 45, while the TT was a close second with the Tigre 46 lifting darn near 8 pounds.
Does anyone recall the event or date? Anyone recall the red TT?
Chris...

[Randy Powell]

I don't remember who kitted it. Just remember it sitting on my cousin's shelf and me drooling over it. I was maybe 16 or so. I do remember the picture on the box of the plane tipped up next to a trophy.

[Chris Gilbert IRL-1638]

Hmmmmm, one nice flying model. I flew my first full pattern on mine just about a year ago. Mucking about with props means that it's now in the building board queue, but it sure flew nice.

[Bill Little]

Randy
Do you remember if by chance the foam wing kit was from Midwest?  I do seem to remember seeing that in the hobby shop back then.
Andy

The kit was not a Midwest one, but I do not remember exactly who did it.  It might have been the first owner of Golden State Models. (?? ?? )

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the great input on my original question. Does anyone know the wing area and the average weight of a Trophy Trainer? TIA

[Rudy Taube]

I'll measure my two and weigh them in the morning. Get back with you then. Its 11:09 pm here and I ain't dressed to go out to the garage. 

TIA Ty :-)

I thought all you guys had plaid parkas to go along with your PJs for just such an occasion? 

[Richard Grogan]

Does anybody out there know where I can get a set of plans to build another.  Andy

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the great input on my original question. Does anyone know the wing area and the average weight of a Trophy Trainer? TIA

What was your original question, Rudy? I guess I'm confused here...

[Chris Gilbert IRL-1638]

I may yet stand corrected but the wing area is in the region of 615 sq inches. My one (photo in an earlier post above) came out HEAVY, at 52 oz.
That of course was my fault, I wanted a model that was going to be strong enough to survive my flying skills at the time I built it.
It has since been recovered in film (thanks EI167) but the weight appears to be in the structure rather than the finish.

I fly mine on 60 ft lines eye to eye and an Enya 45 SSPL (ringed, plain bearing, case is 6304 I think, I'm at work, its at home)
Just over 3 oz (90 cc) gives me enough fuel for the full pattern Zinger or APC 11 x 6.

Flies very nicely, very smooth. I reckon it now flies better than my Nobler, and have been flying it exclusively of late.

[Rudy Taube]

Ty
I hope your AMA insurance covered the neighbors psychiatric care. I'm sure it was the plaid slippers. It makes me nervous just thinking about it!  That poor traumatized dog will never play fetch again!

Thanks for the complete info. I wish Mr. Upland was still making the kit.

# person,
Thanks for the input. The TT must be a very good classic plane if you say it flys better than the classic Nobler! :-)

[Rudy Taube]

Hi Richard G,

Snip "....Thanks for all the great input on my original question. Does anyone know the wing area and the average weight of a Trophy Trainer? TIA

What was your original question, Rudy? I guess I'm confused here..."Snip

Sorry for my "airhead moment" Richard. There are two similar threads, and I got them confused. My question was originally in the Classic section under: "Profile Nobler, is it Classic legal?". Then I was seeing  answers here on this thread RE: the TT recommendation too. I sure did not mean to confuse you, or myself! 

Regards, 

[Richard Grogan]

Thats ok Rudy. I was looking to see if you had a prior post deleted accidentally or something.Read the thread from the beginning and looked kinda' weird and read it again...thought I was loosing it!   

[Larry Renger]

Sounds like we should lean on Eric Rule to kit this puppy!  If a CAD copy of the plans exsist, it will be a slam dunk.  Go for it Andy!

[Rudy Taube]

Walter Umland is the only person with the rights to kit it. If he had enough orders, he might consider kitting it again. Now that more wood is available. 

Hi Ty,

Thanks for the info. I think it has been several years since Walter made this kit?

Maybe we can get Walter and Eric to cooperate and have at least one of them come up with a kit? I do understand that they need more than a few orders to make it worth their time and trouble to get set up for a run. I'm sure they already have their runs all set up for the coming months, so it may not be easy to do. Maybe we can "rent" the CD from Walter so we can have a few kits built somewhere?  It is a simple plane, a short kit may be all that is needed?

Ty and I can't be the only people that would like to have a good flying Profile and Classic class plane to enter in two events at a contest? (I think you already have 2 don't you Ty? Do you want to sell one? :-)

BTW: Ty, do you (or anyone out there) know if I buy the plans and have someone laser cut me a set of ribs, does that infringe on Walter's rights? I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but I also don't want to wait years for a kit to come out. And I really don't see any fun in hand cutting zillions of ribs!    (ARFs are hard enough for me!  )

Ty, FWIW: Please Put my name down for 1 kit if someone is keeping count.

I think Larry is correct, we could lean on Eric to add this plane to his excellent collection, if we could get Walter's permission. Because the "Profile" and "Classic" events are so popular out here on the left coast I would think this 2 for 1 plane would be a popular one.  Especially if it flys as good as everyone says! 

Regards, 

[Rudy Taube]

Thanks Ty,

I'll order a set from Walter and go from there. :-)

[Bob Kruger]

Ty, FWIW: Please Put my name down for 1 kit if someone is keeping count.

I think Larry is correct, we could lean on Eric to add this plane to his excellent collection, if we could get Walter's permission. Because the "Profile" and "Classic" events are so popular out here on the left coast I would think this 2 for 1 plane would be a popular one.  Especially if it flys as good as everyone says! 

Regards, 

Rudy;

I did the CAD work for the Warden "Trophy Trainer" that replicates an original built by Tom Warden and owned by Tom Lay, both for the version published in "Stunt News" and for the kit done by Walter Umland.  The plane is the same, just the plan layout is a little different.  Currently, the stewardship of PAMPA products is changing hands, so copies of the PAMPA Products plans are not easily available right now, and Walt is not currently producing any Trophy Trainer kits.

As I am the guy who did the nug work on the plans, here is what I will do.  If you are a current PAMPA member and want a copy of the PAMPA "Trophy Trainer" plans or the PAMPA "Fancher Twister" plans, contact me and I will send a digital copy of them in Adobe PDF format to anyone who asks for it.  If you are not a PAMPA member, all you need to do is join.  Once I have confirmation of your membership from Dave Gardner, the PAMPA Secretary/Treasurer, I will send the digital copy or copies to your email address.  All you need to do is take a copy of the plans file on a USB Pen Drive or a CD-ROM to any competent print shop, and they will print it out for you.  If you like what you see, but want a kit, contact Walt Umland to have another run of kits made.

Now, will "pirated" copies of the plans be distributed?  Of course.  I will let the conscience and integrity of the CLPA community to decide the level of piracy.  Personal integrity can only be surrendered, but never taken.  Regardless,  a set of plans these days run $10-$15 plus postage.  For $25, you can have a digital set of both plans plus access to the PAMPA web site for 2009.  This includes the past few years of "Stunt News" in digital format and the upcoming six issues for 2009.

And, as Ty mentioned, Walter is now producing hard (e.g. paper) copies of the "Trophy Trainer" plans as well.  If you want the Trophy Trainer plans in paper format, he is the best source for the version that I drew based on the original Warden built TT that Tom Lay owns.  Walter's version is not "clipped", e.g. his wing is presented in a full width layout, as opposed to the PAMPA version which is clipped.  Regardless, both versions are accurate to the original.  Your call.

The "Trophy Trainer" is a great flying profile.  With an engine like an LA 46, it is a joy to fly and great platform to hone your skills without a huge investment in time and funds.  

If you (or anyone else) is interested, please email me or Walter at your convenience.

V/r

Bob