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Author Topic: World Championships  (Read 5916 times)

Offline RandySmith

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World Championships
« on: April 05, 2006, 06:51:19 PM »
Is this  the Complete  WC  list???  anyone  know  about this? when it started?
any Errors  here?

Thanks
Randy

Year      Name          Country            Model            Engine                Location
               
2004   Bill Werwage           USA    P-47 T-Bolt     PA61 RE     Muncie, IN. USA

2002   Xinping Han   China   Skywriter               ?? 60     Sebnitz, Germany

2000   Xinping Han   China   Skywriter               ?? 60     Landres, France

1998   Xinping Han   China   Skywriter               ?? 60      Kiev, Ukraine

1996   Xinping Han   China   Skywriter                ?? 60        Norrköping, Sweden

1994   Xinping Han   China   Skywriter                ?? 60       Shanghai, China

1992   Paul Walker   USA   Impact          OS 40 VF   Hradec Kralove, Czechoslovakia

1990   Zhang Xiangdong   China   Skywriter         Custom made 60 RE       Blenod, France

1988   Zhang Xiangdong   China   Skywriter         Custom made 60 RE      Kiev, USSR

1986   Anatoly Kolesnikov   USSR   KA-10                ?????                              Pecs, Hungary

1984   Zhu Younan   China   ??????                ?35                      Chicopee,USA

1982   Les McDonald   USA   Stilleto 660        K&B40         Oxelosund, Sweden

1980   Les McDonald   USA   Stilleto 660       K&B 40                  Czestochowa, Poland

1978   Bob Hunt                    USA   Genesis Mk IV    OS 40 FSR        RAF Woodvale, England

1976   Les McDonald   USA   Stilleto 660      Super Tigre 46          Utrecht, Holland

1974   Bob Gieseke   USA   Gieseke Nobler   Fox 35           Hradec Kralove, Czechoslovakia

1972   Bill Werwage   USA   USA-1           Super Tigre 46    Helsinki, Finalnd

1970   Bill Werwage   USA      USA-1                  HP 40                     Belgium

1968   Josef Gabris    Czechoslovakia     Super Master     MVVS 5.6 A               Helsinki, Finalnd

1966   Josef Gabris     Czechoslovakia    Super Master     MVVS 5.6 A             RAF Swinderby, England

1964   Juri Sirotkin           USSR   Spacehound          MVVS 5.6A ?            Budaors, Hungary

1962   Louis Grondal   Belgium      Nobler      Fox 35                           Kiev, USSR

1960   Louis Grondal   Belgium       Nobler                    Fox 35                     Budaors, Hungary
« Last Edit: April 16, 2006, 09:03:41 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2006, 07:03:40 PM »
All looks correct to me, Randy.
1960 was the first "Official" WC.  Louis Grondal won using two Noblers.  One was a Green Box used to fly the FAI pattern (2 rounds), and his "AMA Special" used to fly the AMA pattern (1 round).  The AMA Special is what we refer to as the "Grondal Noblerl" now.  This info was from a foriegn magazine, and phone conversations with Mr. grondal himself before his passing

Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20)  for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29.  That fact wasn't known to the world in '64.
Big Bear <><

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James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2006, 07:07:06 PM »
I wonder if it  was  typical of the MVVS engines  where you could  turn the case 90 degrees  in  any  direction?

Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2006, 07:14:32 PM »
I wonder if it  was  typical of the MVVS engines  where you could  turn the case 90 degrees  in  any  direction?

Randy

I have an article that Peter White sent me from a British magazine which did a review of the factory stunt teams from the USSR.  When I can find it, I will post it.  The article was from later in the '60s, IIRC 1966-67.   I believe it was engine #19.
I don't remember it having a separate front and rear housing.  IIRC, it was from the late '50s design case.  Gabris used a similar engine in his "Master" with which he won the "Critirium 'de Aces" in 1958.
Big Bear <><

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Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2006, 07:28:07 PM »
Bill

They  did  NOT  have  a  separate front and  rear  housing, the top was  the  only part that was  separate,  and  would  turn in  90 degree  segments,  so you could have  the exhaust out the  front  rear  right  or  left  side
That was  what I was  asking, if this is true  or  not.
 The  MVVS  are not  setup up like  an  OS  FSR  with a removable  front housing, at least not the ones i have or have seen , I was curious to know if they have always done this or if they indeed had a  differant configuration back in the 60s. I was asking specificly about that type of configuration

Randy
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 02:00:55 PM by RandySmith »

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2006, 08:56:59 PM »
Hi Randy,

I found the articles from Peter.  First one appeared in the April 1962 "Model Aircraft" issue.  The second one was for the same engine and appeared in the April 1967 issue of "Aero Modeler".  It was designated  the "Type5.6/1958  (.346 ci) Stunt engine.  Reported to have made 20, Peter Chinn acquired number 19.

It was a direct decendant of the 5.0 speed MVVS.  ball bearing, RISE design.  It looks like somebody at MVVS must have worked for Dooling!  The center case is  a copy of a Dooling 29, it is one piece, and the piston looks like a Dooling with two large holes in the skirt on the intake port side..  It has a front housing and a rear housing.  Exhaust period was 140 degrees  Transfer period was 120 with 10 degrees exhaust lead.  Non metallic valve rotor.  The center crankcase portion has the big hemispherical intake bypass like a Dooling.
Big Bear <><

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James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline rustler

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2006, 10:03:57 PM »
A story on this engine is that as stated they were developed from the MVVS 29 speed engine. (Was it Studeny who held 29 world record for a time with this?) There were not too many made of either type, and the Czechs ran out of 29's, and had to convert some of the 5.6's back to 29.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline rustler

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2006, 10:10:04 PM »
I would guess 1964 Sirotkin would also be the MVVS 5.6A.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2006, 10:21:12 PM »
""Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20)  for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29.  That fact wasn't known to the world in '64."""

do you know that for  sure?

Did  he  just  tell  people  it  was a  combat 35? It was  supposed to be  differant than the  Gabris engine

Billy told  me  they hated  that engine, it would  burp and do weird things at times, and  After 70 Gabris  went to a  HP 40

I had  always  heard  these  were  secret  engines. We may  never  know  the  exact  truth  about  these

Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2006, 07:17:38 AM »
""Only point in question is that the MVVS 5.6 that Sirotkin used in '64 was actually a factory prototype stunt engine made in very low numbers (~20)  for the USSR team.
Based on the tooling for their racing 29.  That fact wasn't known to the world in '64."""

do you know that for  sure?

Did  he  just  tell  people  it  was a  combat 35? It was  supposed to be  differant than the  Gabris engine

Billy told  me  they hated  that engine, it would  burp and do weird things at times, and  After 70 Gabris  went to a  HP 40

I had  always  heard  these  were  secret  engines. We may  never  know  the  exact  truth  about  these
Randy

Hi Randy,

As you know, I have a strange affliction for these World Championship airplanes from '60 to '68.  Especially being the "Classic Period" freak I am.  :o

I don't know it for "sure", but just going on correspondence with a few flyers who competed in the World's at the time.

With the position the Communist pilots were in, I'm not real sure what information they could divulge to the "rest of the World".   A good picture is in and article of the Gabris' Master from Brussels in 1958.  That plane had an upright exposed engine.

I do have an Akrobat 42 of the type that Sirotkin used in his "last" stunter",  his "Ilushyn", from the '69 Russian National Championships.  Got it from a fellow in Chechoslovakia (sp?) a year or so ago.

As to the article, I can send you a copy of both the engine review (engine #19 of 20, 1967) and the 1962 article where not much was known about it.  It was later reported that the USSR teams had to go to factory reworked production MVVS 5.6 engines when the supply of usuable "special engines" was used up.  From all accounts, the MVVS was out of top level international competition by 1970.

Any other information would be greatly received.  Ian Russell (rustler) knows some things about these engines, too.  In fact I was attempting to buy one from him a year or so ago.  Just didn't have the funds. :)

One thing for sure!  Props used were VERY close to 10-4 on the "Stunt" 5.6. 
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2006, 01:23:56 PM »
HI Bill
I too have a very keen interest in classic planes and  motors, as you do.
There has been a large amount of missinformation  on a  lot of the engines used over the years in many competitions, also some engines were not as that were stamped on the  side.

About the  MVVS combat and  converted 5.6   ,I would like to see the  article  and pictures of one of the motors, that would explain a lot. The question I asked was does  either of the 2 MVVS motors (if they are 2) have a bolt on top case? or if the configuration is exactly like a OS FSR?  Maybe  Ian   knows  for  sure?

But back to the reason for the post, information, does anyone know what plane and engine was used to win in 1984?
Did all the Chinese use ST60s  or was there a home made  clone of the ST 60 used , as rumor has it?

any updates to what I have  so far?

Randy

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2006, 02:07:11 PM »
Hi Ian and Bill

Is this the motor from 66 68?

Randy

Offline Rick Campbell

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2006, 03:31:40 PM »
Randy:

The 88/90 winner from China Zhang Xian Dong made his own rear exhaust engine. It was not a 'Tigre. He had two.  My friend Dave Chang is occasionally in touch with him. He now lives in Canada.

Also - the ship that Xinping Han flies is derived from Zhang Xian Dong's Skywriter, but has evolved some.  Chang is working on getting plans to that one.

Cool stuff.  Hope this helps.

Rick Campbell

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2006, 09:39:36 PM »
Hi Rick

Yes  all  info I can get helps , thanks.
I knew it wasn't a ST 60 as posted on the internet site I got this from, because it was a  rear ex  engine
Which leads me to think maybe the others were not ST 60s  either?
I would like to find out for sure one way or the other.
I did find out the Chinese used a  35 in th e early 80s before going to  the  larger  RE  60s

Thanks  for  the  information

Randy

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2006, 09:53:49 PM »
Hi Ian and Bill

Is this the motor from 66 68?

Randy

Hi Randy,

Except for the carb, of course, that is the same basic picture that is in the April '62 Model Aircraft  "Engine Test" article that is designated the "Type 5.6/1958".  The venturi (restrictor) was in place of the carb and had the NVA through it, similar to the present G-51 style.  That is "supposed to be" the one used through '66, according to what I have read and heard.  I do not have any information for '68.  I do have info on Sirotkin's '69 Stunter, and the quote that the "entire" USSR stunt team used the Akrobat 42 (.4272) at the '70 WC.

I am making copies of the articles tomorrow at work for you.
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2006, 10:06:08 PM »
Hi Randy,

 Zhang Xiangdong  now lives in Canada.  Have you contacted him?  I am sure he can
fill inthe Chinese engine lineage.

Someone on SSW from Canada  is close to him, but I'm not sure who it is.  I just know he brought Zhang over and let him live with him a while.  Zhang even sells plans to his Skywriter original fully take apart WC plane.

Steven Y. put that list together (if you got it from the PAMPA site) basically from word of mouth.

Is it true that Billy won in '70 with the ST 40, or did he have the 46 in there by then?  I "think" Billy said he had the 46 for the Worlds, but can't remember.
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2006, 10:17:03 PM »
Hi Randy,

Except for the carb, of course, that is the same basic picture that is in the April '62 Model Aircraft  "Engine Test" article that is designated the "Type 5.6/1958".  The venturi (restrictor) was in place of the carb and had the NVA through it, similar to the present G-51 style.  That is "supposed to be" the one used through '66, according to what I have read and heard.  I do not have any information for '68.  I do have info on Sirotkin's '69 Stunter, and the quote that the "entire" USSR stunt team used the Akrobat 42 (.4272) at the '70 WC.

I am making copies of the articles tomorrow at work for you.



Hi Bill

Thanks  that explains a lot  to me now.  I have  updated  the info  to what I have  found out.
That is the engine that  Gabris  used in 66 and  68, I would like to find out about the reported  35 combat motor  that  Juri  used  in  64???

And  from what Bill told me in 1970 he used  a  HP 40 , but I knew he  was  switching back and forth  the  2  engines

I have seen Zhangs aircraft up very close in much detail. Kim Doherty used one at the 2004 Worlds  and Is a very good friend if Zhangs. I met got to meet Zhang at the 2004 Worlds

Thanks for  helping  with the info

Randy
« Last Edit: April 06, 2006, 10:36:35 PM by RandySmith »

Offline rustler

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2006, 11:19:31 PM »
Ref. Randy's reply No.11, other folks know precise dates better than me. But I can say the pic. is of a later engine, not one of the original series. Obviously it is geared towards r/c, and has throttle fitted. The web in the exhaust stack is drilled and threaded to take a rudimentary "silencer", - more of a straight tube outlet of the type that these days leads to a more effective muffler.
The original series did not have this web.
I'm going out on a limb and saying the timing of both engines is the same.
Ian Russell.
[I can remember the schedule o.k., the problem is remembering what was the last manoeuvre I just flew!].

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2006, 10:58:43 AM »
Ref. Randy's reply No.11, other folks know precise dates better than me. But I can say the pic. is of a later engine, not one of the original series. Obviously it is geared towards r/c, and has throttle fitted. The web in the exhaust stack is drilled and threaded to take a rudimentary "silencer", - more of a straight tube outlet of the type that these days leads to a more effective muffler.
The original series did not have this web.
I'm going out on a limb and saying the timing of both engines is the same.

Hi Ian,

While the R/C carb and web in the exhaust stack are "new", the rest of that engine is pretty much virtually identical to the picture in the '62 and '67 Engine Reviews I have.  I will post these tonight or this week end.   

Have you found another one?  :)
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2006, 02:24:06 PM »
Hi Ian and Bill

Is this the motor from 66 68?

Randy


That looks like some of newer versions (could be 66/68). Orriginal Czechslovak (not Russian) MVVS 5.6A was started 1957 and it was dedicated to c/l stunt. That time the silencer was not used and so the engine did not have that thread visible on your picture in exhaust and also did not have r/c carb.

Beside the "A" version they did later sever other versions including speed clone 5ccm and also r/c clones.

The orriginal version had piston with 2 rings and drum made from umatex instead of steal.

The case was from 3 parts as visible on picture - front housing with ball bearings, the middle part with sleeve and back part with the drum.

Jozef Gabris used that engine already at first unofficial WC in Bruxeles at Expo 1958 with model Master.

The model used 66 / 68 was Supermaster.
http://www.controlline.sk/foto/memorial/master.jpg

Offline Bill Little

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2006, 06:00:45 PM »

That looks like some of newer versions (could be 66/68). Orriginal Czechslovak (not Russian) MVVS 5.6A was started 1957 and it was dedicated to c/l stunt. That time the silencer was not used and so the engine did not have that thread visible on your picture in exhaust and also did not have r/c carb.

Beside the "A" version they did later sever other versions including speed clone 5ccm and also r/c clones.

The orriginal version had piston with 2 rings and drum made from umatex instead of steal.

The case was from 3 parts as visible on picture - front housing with ball bearings, the middle part with sleeve and back part with the drum.

Jozef Gabris used that engine already at first unofficial WC in Bruxeles at Expo 1958 with model Master.

The model used 66 / 68 was Supermaster.
http://www.controlline.sk/foto/memorial/master.jpg

Hi Igor,
Thanks for verifying my information (see my post including the MASTER above).  I have a 1958 Gabris "Master" ready to assemble, at least I have cut out the parts!  I was looking for a 5.6A or "similar" MVVS to power it, but I just haven't run across one.  I have decided to go another route withthe power train.  I *might* use my Akrobat 42 which is in excellent shape..  The MASTER  is a surprisingly large 35 size stunter.
I also like the fact that it has an upright engine installation.  An interesting departure came with the "Super Master".  Gone was the constant chord wing, turtle deck, and upright engine.
Still, having built and competed with a Spacehound, I like the Ilushyn the best!  x:)
Big Bear <><

Aberdeen, NC

James Hylton Motorsports/NASCAR/ARCA

AMA 95351 (got one of my old numbers back! ;D )

Trying to get by

Offline aldon kelly

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2006, 10:53:52 AM »
re MVVS5.6
The prop used by Gabris was 190mmX100mm or a 200X100. the engine was an off shoot of the 5cm3 engine. I have just recived 1 of the5cm3 engines. And yes very few were made Ihave run the 5.6cm3 on a trip to the other side of the world. But U.S. stunt flyers for the most part do not rear in take engines. And keep in mind these engines were developed during hight of the cold war.I hope to be able to post a picture of the 5cm3 soon .
The later engine I belive was plain bearing.
Al

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2006, 02:17:55 PM »
Those 5ccm was speed clones (speed models that age was 5ccm max)

the plain bearing MVVS was 5,6 AL and they was designed to attract more young people to stunt ... but its quality was far worse and needed rework

Offline aldon kelly

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2006, 01:25:16 AM »
Hi Randy
I made a mistake yesterday the props used on the MVVS 5.6 should have been 240x100 or250x100mm. (Not190x100mm or 200x100 as stated )
Al

Offline Igor Burger

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2006, 02:50:31 AM »
>>>MVVS 5.6 should have been 240x100 or250x100mm<<<

Right, the producer of them was Sibl

Offline RandySmith

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Re: World Championships
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2006, 12:48:38 PM »
IGOR and ALDON


Thanks  all this  information helps. Still  looking  for  more  info on the Chinese

Randy


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