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Author Topic: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46  (Read 4739 times)

Offline Jared Hays

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Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« on: July 05, 2015, 12:09:21 AM »
My dad and I have a Bull Ring Tigre 46 we are getting back up in the air and looking for some advice.  We have always had to run this engine a touch on the lean side, or maybe not lean but a lot higher RPM than a standard Tigre 46.  Consequently we have to go down on the pitch of the prop to slow the airspeed down to be able to do the pattern at a more reasonable speed.  We turn our other standard Tigre 46's anywhere from 7100-8100RPM depending on the plane and prop.  Usually a 12 x 6 prop.  This engine will almost not fly the plane at those RPM's.  It acts like a Fox 35 with the burp when running slow and it doesn't want to 4 cycle at all.  We are turning this motor 9100-9500 RPM on a 13 x 5 Zinger prop. Curious if we should look into a 3 bladed prop.  We are just experimenting with ideas here and not sure if I even really have a question haha but maybe if someone has more experience with this motor or higher revving motors could let me know what has worked well for them.  This motor is on a blown up original Stiletto design 59" wingspan.  Dave Trible if your out there would one of those 3 blade props you were telling me about be a good fit for this motor?

Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2015, 12:18:56 AM »
pics of motor.




John Leidle

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2015, 12:32:17 AM »
  I wouldn't try a 13-5 prop on that engine,,, I'd try an 11-6 or so to start,, 13 - 5 ? No way.
  John

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2015, 12:32:28 AM »
My dad and I have a Bull Ring Tigre 46 we are getting back up in the air and looking for some advice.  We have always had to run this engine a touch on the lean side, or maybe not lean but a lot higher RPM than a standard Tigre 46.  Consequently we have to go down on the pitch of the prop to slow the airspeed down to be able to do the pattern at a more reasonable speed.  We turn our other standard Tigre 46's anywhere from 7100-8100RPM depending on the plane and prop.  Usually a 12 x 6 prop.  This engine will almost not fly the plane at those RPM's.  It acts like a Fox 35 with the burp when running slow and it doesn't want to 4 cycle at all.  We are turning this motor 9100-9500 RPM on a 13 x 5 Zinger prop. Curious if we should look into a 3 bladed prop.  We are just experimenting with ideas here and not sure if I even really have a question haha but maybe if someone has more experience with this motor or higher revving motors could let me know what has worked well for them.  This motor is on a blown up original Stiletto design 59" wingspan.  Dave Trible if your out there would one of those 3 blade props you were telling me about be a good fit for this motor?

  I had one but it had, unfortunately, been modified to run at low RPM.

    Sounds like you are on the right track with the pitch. I would suggest a 12-4 and maybe 10000 rpm. You want it spinning just enough off of peak to still gain power in the maneuvers at a reasonable level flight speed, at least to start with. As you gain experience and get a workable baseline setup, then you can considered more pitch and a smaller venturi.

     Brett
    

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2015, 12:33:29 AM »
  I wouldn't try a 13-5 prop on that engine,,, I'd try an 11-6 or so to start,, 13 - 5 ? No way.

  I ran mine on a 13-5 Rev-Up with decent results. You can do that with a regular ST46, too, if you have a really good one.

    Brett

John Leidle

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2015, 12:36:38 AM »
 Stronger than I thought. Bill W. used one in Tucson ... deep 4stroke sound lotsa power.
  John

Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2015, 12:40:09 AM »
13 x 5 is whats on it now and has been for years we just have not flown it much.  But with the onset of N30 classes we are digging some old stuff out of the depths of the hanger.  It seems to work fine as long as the RPM is up but just mulling over the options and it does seem to have more power than a standard 46 and burns fuel much quicker too.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2015, 01:19:48 AM »
I had a Bull Ring ST 46 in a Stilletto about 1986 or 87 I had a lot of trouble getting it to run at a reasonable speed and finally started modifying 13-5 wide blade props to about 12.25 4.25.  They ran at about 9700 RPM at launch and didn't unload much in the air.
The engine ran in a very fast 4 stroke for the entire pattern and never broke into a two stroke.  I used 15% Nitro and 22% Castor oil.  It was a good combination and flew very well.  Making the props was a real pain in the "you know what".  Getting them consistently the same was a lot of work, and being wood props and fairly thin after rework they were fairly fragile.  I finally shoe horned a ST60 in the airplane never looked back.

With the variety of props available today however I would start with an 11.25-4.25 three blade at about 9600 RPM launch, and work from there.  It would likely work into a good combination.  It is basically a very strong engine.

Randy Cuberly
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2015, 05:57:19 AM »
Jared I never tried this engine so not sure but I'd try Randy's approach above.  Don't load it up with diameter to keep the temp down and let it run where it's happy.  Then find a usable flying pitch.  Carbon props are generally in the '4s' and can be tweaked to dial in a flight speed. 
If this is true of the Bull Ring then it's a lot different than the .51 ( newer versions). They too are Schneurle but run 'happy' exactly like the .46- slow with more pitch.  I burned a couple rings until I stopped trying run it like a Schneurle and more like an old .46.  I never felt they like more than 11" diameter even though the .46 liked the 11 1/2x 6 Rev Up best.  This Bull Ring beast is obviously different.  I'd still be sure to use at least 22% oil with a little red oil to keep the ring clean.

Dave
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Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2015, 10:31:31 AM »
I was kinda thinking along the lines of what Randy said with the 3 blade but your saying not to Dave?

Offline EddyR

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2015, 11:13:33 AM »
 I fooled with those many moons ago and used 11.5 x4's on them. I ran them at 10,000 and they ran the same every time. They are a lot more powerful than a ST/46 G21.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2015, 11:17:59 AM »
Jared I'm sorry if I confused you- the three blade is fine.  I'm more concerned about not overdoing the diameter.  I don't think the blade count matters too much other than more blades can absorb more horsepower.  For example I can run three or four blades on the RO Jett's and the only real difference I can tell is the four blade runs a little smoother.  Not sure if that's balance or a flywheel effect of more weight.  I think you could put too much on that .46 so I'd go 2 or 3 and may be a matter of what carbon props you can actually find to buy.  You can make most anything that is close work.  I like my 3 blade Mejlik best.  I noticed Billy Werwage and Bob McDonald and others seem to favor two blades as well as the Yatsenko Sharks.  Pick your medicine.

Dave
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 04:05:13 PM by Dave_Trible »
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Offline Jared Hays

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2015, 11:44:52 PM »
This is the smallest 3 blade Mejzlik prop I see on their website.  Any ideas where I can find an 11 or less pitch 12? http://www.mejzlik.eu/control-line-propellers/propeller-12-0-x-6-8-3b/

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2015, 12:23:47 AM »
This is the smallest 3 blade Mejzlik prop I see on their website.  Any ideas where I can find an 11 or less pitch 12? http://www.mejzlik.eu/control-line-propellers/propeller-12-0-x-6-8-3b/

Try Randy Smith at Aeroproducts.  It's easy to change the diameter (make it smaller) or pictch within a full pitch or two, on any of the carbon props. 

A pitch guage, a balancer, and a heat gun is all that is necessary.  If you don't have these tools Get Them.  Anone serious about stunt and using modern engines should have these tools.

The Bull Ring 46 has larger porting and a lot higher exhaust timing than the older G21 46's or the Newer ST 51's.  That's the primary reason they develop more power and need to run at somewhat higher RPM.  With the right prop and fuel they will make more power than the 51.

Randy Cuberly
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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2015, 09:25:44 AM »
Howa Bouta FOUR BLADE ?

couple of zingers , carved and notched 1/2 & 1/2 .
If the joints good , epoxys stronger than the wood.

select props for good even straight grain though ( or tho ).

Even had someone who shall remain nameless flip the 70 Oz Spit
at the end of the landing roll on the vertical bottom blade , without angst .

Obviously 12 x 4 Zingers are easily avaliable . we hope .

thats Dual 11 x 5s on the g 51 ( on no nitro ) on that there Spitfire .



Got a new similar one coming along slowly but steadily , amongst the other things .

Offline john gunn

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2015, 05:41:25 AM »


I have a bull ring tiger 46,mine was tuned by Charlie in Baton Rouge and it is a good stunt motor.  He is no longer with us, you have to find a motor man to reset the port timing to have a good stunt motor.  Mine hauled a modified twister at 70 foot lines and it is a winning combo.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Schnuerle ported Super Tigre Bull Ring 46
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2015, 08:17:45 PM »

I have a bull ring tiger 46,mine was tuned by Charlie in Baton Rouge and it is a good stunt motor.  He is no longer with us, you have to find a motor man to reset the port timing to have a good stunt motor. 

     It doesn't need any timing changes, in fact, that's what was done with mine and all it did was lose a bunch of power. The fact that you are running on such a small model (instead of the 650-700 square inch ST46 airplanes we needed) indicates the same thing. If you want to run it on a tiny Fox 35 airplane then yes, but otherwise, I think stock and experiment with 4.5-5" of pitch and around 12-13" diameter (or a 3-blade equivalent).

    Brett


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