Author Topic: Brodak Cardinal Kit - Recommend an engine and tank (Read 9432 times)

David Ruff · « **on:** May 25, 2015, 03:25:41 PM »

Will be building a Brodak Cardinal. Recommend an engine and tank.

Here are the engine choices:

Enya SS 30BB
Evolution 36 CL
K&B 40 Stunt
OS FP 40 S
Enya SS40 S
Enya SS40 BBS
Enya SS45 BBS Ring
OS 46 LA-S
ST 46 Randy Smith
Thunder Tiger 46 Stunt

Thanks.

Bootlegger · « **Reply #1 on:** May 26, 2015, 01:02:42 PM »

I suggest the LA 46, most of the guy's around here (Baton Rouge, La.) are using this engine on the Cardinal and they all run and fly well, as for the tank, how about a 5 oz uniflo as it will be large enough to fly the pattern down around sea level, at higher altitudes you will probably need a larger tank, higher nitro will also call for a larger tank.
Hope that this helps...

David Ruff · « **Reply #2 on:** May 27, 2015, 10:59:16 AM »

Quote from: Ty Marcucci on May 27, 2015, 07:47:10 AM

My first one, from a kit, I used an ST .46 and 5 oz tank. The next five I used the OS LA-S.46 with an 11 x 5 prop and a 4 oz tank. Used 3.8 oz of fuel on most days with fuel left over after the pattern. Greatest profile since the Magician 35. I never built any ARC/ARF versions, but did buy one ready to fly. It lasted 5 flights. Leadout broke at the bell crank. Build from the kit, you will have a better plane..

which engine worked better? The ST or OS? My ST is a Randy B&B engine.

David Felinczak · « **Reply #3 on:** May 31, 2015, 05:13:51 PM »

David,
I realize that this response is late however for future reference if this helps???

This is my combo that works very well.

Model - Brodak Profile Cardinal - Kit
Motor - Randy Smith Super Tigre G.34 Ringed, B/B, with "sprinkler venturi (offset spray bar)" made in Italy.
Plug - Sig RC Long
Muffler - Big Art Tongue Muffler
Tank- Brodak 5.0 oz Uniflow, no pressure
Prop-Thunder Tiger, 11" x 4.5"
Fuel - Brodak 5% Nitro, 11.5% Synthetic/11.5% Castor with additional 2.0% castor added/gal. (per Randy recommendation)
Finish-Red Transparent Ultracote; Hanger 9 mfg. (Wing and Tail Feathers)
Black Top Flite Lustre Coat spray paint (Fuselage)
Weight- 49.8 oz
Lap Speed: 5.4 - 5.1 depending on fuel type, wind velocity etc.

Special Note: I also have a Randy Smith Super Tiger G.51, Made in Italy, that I am flying on a Brodak Pathfinder MKII (profile).
The Randy Smith Super Tigers are approx. 5 years old each & both motors are extremely reliable with no
reported failures. Each motor is modified as a stunt motor with a 4-2-4 break with plenty of power to spare.

Hope this helps sir.

David

David Ruff · « **Reply #4 on:** May 31, 2015, 06:31:53 PM »

Quote from: David Felinczak on May 31, 2015, 05:13:51 PM

David,
I realize that this response is late however for future reference if this helps???

This is my combo that works very well.

Model - Brodak Profile Cardinal - Kit
Motor - Randy Smith Super Tigre G.34 Ringed, B/B, with "sprinkler venturi (offset spray bar)" made in Italy.
Plug - Sig RC Long
Muffler - Big Art Tongue Muffler
Tank- Brodak 5.0 oz Uniflow, no pressure
Prop-Thunder Tiger, 11" x 4.5"
Fuel - Brodak 5% Nitro, 11.5% Synthetic/11.5% Castor with additional 2.0% castor added/gal. (per Randy recommendation)
Finish-Red Transparent Ultracote; Hanger 9 mfg. (Wing and Tail Feathers)
Black Top Flite Lustre Coat spray paint (Fuselage)
Weight- 49.8 oz
Lap Speed: 5.4 - 5.1 depending on fuel type, wind velocity etc.

Special Note: I also have a Randy Smith Super Tiger G.51, Made in Italy, that I am flying on a Brodak Pathfinder MKII (profile).
The Randy Smith Super Tigers are approx. 5 years old each & both motors are extremely reliable with no
reported failures. Each motor is modified as a stunt motor with a 4-2-4 break with plenty of power to spare.

Hope this helps sir.

David

Yes..this is very useful info. I appreciate it. Interesting; I just picked up the Pathfinder as well. I am starting to build the Cardinal. If the ST .34 works well, then I am sure the .46 will be plenty of engine. Maybe I will have to use a smaller engine? Interesting that my Evolution .36 swings an 11 inch prop and seems to be a candidate. I modified it to use the front NVA. I, too favor Ultracote on the open structures and tail. Lately I have been using KlassKote epoxy for the fuselage.

David Felinczak · « **Reply #5 on:** May 31, 2015, 08:18:59 PM »

A couple of notes on the Pathfinder (I have 2). My 1st was a kit and the 2nd is a ARC. The kit version is flying with Randy's ST G.51 and the ARC is using the new Enya .45S factory stunt motor. I placed 3rd in Beginner at the 2011 NATS (my 1st). Both aircraft flew almost perfect off the bench.

Construction tips: Shorten the tail moment .50" to improve CG balance and
- Reinforce fuse with carbon fiber rod between flaps and stab to prevent
twisting in fuse caused by engine torque and stab/elevator surface area.
- use 45 degree eccentric flap horn to set up flap/elev. throw ratio. My flap
elevator throw does not exceed 3-4 degrees.
- I incorporated Al Rabe rudder setup on ARC to improve yaw on outside turns.
- 11/5 prop seems to work the best especially with the Enya .45!

Both are great flying profile aircraft, enjoy!

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #6 on:** June 01, 2015, 12:30:41 AM »

Which part of the 1990's Brodak Cardinal profile by Windy is Classic Stunt?

David Ruff · « **Reply #7 on:** June 01, 2015, 03:11:17 AM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on June 01, 2015, 12:30:41 AM

Which part of the 1990's Brodak Cardinal profile by Windy is Classic Stunt?

Probably none. Should be in which category?

David Felinczak · « **Reply #8 on:** June 02, 2015, 03:41:34 AM »

Cardinal should still classify as "Modern" Stunt.

When I have used mine at Brodak's it was only allowed in Profile & CLPA event class.

David Ruff · « **Reply #9 on:** June 04, 2015, 12:23:11 PM »

back to the topic question....

Tim Redelman · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2015, 01:29:11 PM »

How about the Chinese Supertiger .51? To much engine or ?

Tim

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2015, 03:01:52 PM »

ST G.51 is more engine than it needs, and heavier than it needs to balance. I'd go with a .46LA fitted up with a Randy Aero NV Assy., and metal backplate. The backplate is simply to avoid potential problems, not absolutely required. The stock muffler is excellent, but if it comes out noseheavy, consider a Randy Aero CNC tube muffler with a rubber ducky added. You'll need 4+ oz of fuel if you're running 10% nitro. Steer clear of Fox glowplugs and start with the 11.5 x 4 APC. There's a pinned topic on the Engine Setup Forum devoted to the .46LA, so read through that.

A lot of the engines listed by the OP will work. I'd pick the .46LA or one of the .40-.45 Enyas.

peabody · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2015, 04:27:09 PM »

Hi
I flew the prototype, as well as several others.
The original was ( a bit under) powered by a Double Star .40.
The Cardinal profile will fly well with a strong 40, or a 46. With the power that you present, I would opt for the OS 46 LA......a 4.5 ounce Uniflow tank will do it.
The flaps on the Cardinal are a bit "generous" and, if you build it light, be prepared to trim them.
Grassing the fuselage helps a bunch, too.
Have fun!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2015, 10:19:47 PM »

I built a Brodak Cardinal (profile) from the kit shortly after the kit was released. A few minow changes in the control system with stiffer control horns and a 4 inch bellcrank,

I used an OSLA46 which was also not long after it's appearande and it proved to be a perfect match for the Cardinal. Exactly the right weight for a good CG location and perfect power with a APC 11.5-4 prop. Flew it in several profile contests locally in Phoinix and Tucson a won a couple of them.

It proved to be a great flying airplane with the LA and I eventually gave it to my Brother who used it for a year to advance into the Expert class. It came back to me eventually and then found another new home where it is still flying with the same LA46.

I flew a couple of others with 3 inch bellcranks and wimpy control horns and they could not compare.

Randy Cuberly

Tim Redelman · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2015, 10:34:19 PM »

ok, i have a 46LA or a RO-Jett 40 side exhaust with a Randy tube muffler?

Still OS? or go with the RO-Jett?

Tim

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2015, 12:10:08 AM »

Quote from: Tim Redelman on July 17, 2015, 10:34:19 PM

ok, i have a 46LA or a RO-Jett 40 side exhaust with a Randy tube muffler?

Still OS? or go with the RO-Jett?

Tim

ither one will work fine. Personally I would use the OS LA46 for this installation, but I have 4 ROJett 40's. 2 side exhaust and 2 rear exhaust All BSE's...They run very well but are a little mor limited in utility than the OS. In other words they pretty much need to run in one RPM regimen, whereas the OS can be used as 2-4 with 5 pitch in 8900 to 9000 RPM range or with 3 3/4 to 4 pitch in 9700 to 10000 RPM Range in constant speed. The RO Jett definitely runs best in thd High RPM low pitch mode!

Just pick your poison! Either can work very well. The OS typically uses a little less fuel to fly the pattern but not significantly so!

Here in Tucson due to the altitude and heat we typically run more nitro than other places (15% to 25% is typical).

Higher heat...More nitro.

Randy Cuberly

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:21:46 PM »

LA 46 is user friendly, nice break. Usually. ST 46 set up well, with nice ring fit, has more grunt. Grass (?) fues. How about glass fues. Good idea to glass the front end to reduce vibration. A problem with some ARF Cardinals I've known. Long nose moment. Dunno about the kits. Some Cardinal ARFs twanged a difficult to tame vibe.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:33:58 PM »

Quote from: Dennis Moritz on July 22, 2015, 10:21:46 PM

LA 46 is user friendly, nice break. Usually. ST 46 set up well, with nice ring fit, has more grunt. Grass (?) fues. How about glass fues. Good idea to glass the front end to reduce vibration. A problem with some ARF Cardinals I've known. Long nose moment. Dunno about the kits. Some Cardinal ARFs twanked a difficult to tame vibe.

The kit has a strong conventional proflle construction with engine bearers that extend back to the wing (They should have holes drilled in them in the aft section to remove some unnecessary weight), and conventional plywood doublers with a balsa cheek cowl, to make a very stiff front end.

The ARF has some built up construction and wimpy engine bearers that make for a weak front fuselage and should be taken apart and reinforced to prevent vibration problems.

Randy Cuberly

Dennis Moritz · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2015, 10:41:37 PM »

The ARF front end looked robust. Ply doublers, cheek cowl. Fruit wood engine bearers definitely weird. I thought part of the vibe issue was a fairly long nose moment. I glassed the front end of a Cardinal ARF. Seemed to help. Didn't appear to add much weight or throw off the cg. I used light cloth and scraped off excess epoxy. I've had some exceptional running LA46s that sucked a lot of fuel. One used every bit of six ounces for the pattern plus a reasonable number of extra laps. Clunk tanks work well. The ones I used were set up for uniflo. Uniflo line soldered to the clunk on inside side. About 3/8inch from end of clunk.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #19 on:** July 24, 2015, 04:41:16 PM »

As I recall, the original prototype for the kit used an ST 46, completely stock.
Although a bit heavy, it reportedly flew quite well.

I was at John's house when the first two ARFs arrived. One was damaged, I assembled the other.

Here are the engines I tried, in the order I tried them:

Brodak 40 - A bit weak but it got the job done.
SAITO 40A - Excellent flying characteristics.
SAITO 30 - Just for fun. Flew better than I expected but not my choice!
SAITO 50 - Flew very well with lots of tail weight.
ST 40 (old style) - Couldn't get consistent runs.
ST 46 - Great.
MERCO 40 (newer style) - Really anemic.
FP 40 - If you want to fly a 2-stroke 40, the FP is the way to go.
OS Non-Surpass 40 - Very quiet, very smooth, very consistent, a really nice choice. Possibly the quietest engine I've ever used.
Surpass 40 - OK but not as reliable as I like.
ENYA 46 Four stroke - WAY too much power.
LA 46 - Great - probably my favorite.

If I was building one today, I would use either the OS Non-Surpass 40 or the LA 46.
Just my two cents,

Bob Z

Daniel_Munro · « **Reply #20 on:** July 24, 2015, 07:59:57 PM »

A friend flies one with a ST46 spinning a trimmed Top Flite 12x6 wood. Unsure of his tank, looks like a home made metal uniflow. It flies really well. Even in the wind the ST46 pulls it with authority.

Robert Zambelli · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2015, 01:49:08 PM »

I forgot to add:

TANKS.
I tried quite a few different ones, both standard metal and plastic clunk tanks.
The plain old rectangular wedge worked very well.
I tried it with and without uniflow - couldn't tell the difference.
The best clunk tank was a round one, around four ounces, made from a shampoo bottle.

Bob Z.