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Author Topic: What's your nemesis?  (Read 2688 times)

Dwayne

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What's your nemesis?
« on: May 16, 2015, 07:24:54 PM »
Which part of the pattern gives you the biggest fits, not necessarily the most difficult but the one you have the hardest time getting to look even remotely right. For me it is the square 8, who knew drawing a square 8 with a toy airplane would be so flippin hard...lol   <= :P ;D

Offline Motorman

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2015, 07:56:20 PM »
Flying upside down makes me dizzy after 2 laps.

MM

Online Gerald Arana

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2015, 08:06:15 PM »
Which part of the pattern gives you the biggest fits, not necessarily the most difficult but the one you have the hardest time getting to look even remotely right. For me it is the square 8, who knew drawing a square 8 with a toy airplane would be so flippin hard...lol   <= :P ;D



Me too!  :'(

I've been watching the experts and it looks (to me) like they do two rectangles and not necessarily squares. Could be the way a spectator sees it.  ::)

Jerry

Offline RknRusty

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2015, 08:12:13 PM »
Two in particular. The OH8 has been maddening for me, though today I actually flew a decent one, so maybe I can build on that. I often get off balance and stumble around like Jerry Lewis. I can't just plant my feet wide and fly it like I do with the other stunts.

But even worse are my landings. They are horrible. Laughable. I either come in too hot, or hold it up too long and float it and drop it and bounce. I've tried just letting it land itself. Nothing works. Sometimes I'll screw up and grease a beauty, but never in a contest. I threw 20 points in the garbage with today's landing on my best flight out at Triple Tree. Maybe I need wooden wheels.
Rusty
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while you're doing it!

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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2015, 09:23:24 PM »
Which model did you fly, Rusty? What was the surface, grass?
Chris...

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2015, 10:21:48 PM »
My Nemesis is different than Howard's.  ;)

In fact, my nemesis is Judges and apparently, the AMA maneuver diagrams.   S?P  Steve
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In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Trostle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2015, 10:33:12 PM »

Me too!  :'(

I've been watching the experts and it looks (to me) like they do two rectangles and not necessarily squares. Could be the way a spectator sees it.  ::)

Jerry

My response here is sort of off topic, but the comments about the square eights deserve a comment.

There are several things to understand about our square eights.  We are flying on the surface of a hemisphere.  The rules for the square eights require that the bottoms of the square eights are to be at the "normal flight level" which is defined as an "altitude of from 1.20 to 1.80 meters (3.9 to 5.9feet)".  As soon as this requirement is established, it is impossible to have a horizontal square eight that has all sides equal length and all corners be the same.  It is also to be remembered that the rules for the horizontal square eights do not require all of the sides to be the same length or that all of the corners are to be the same.  So, what the gifted ones with the golden arms do is fly the maneuver where the sides sort of look to be of equal length and all the corners are "of a tight radius", and that the "vertical" legs all appear to be something like 90o to the ground, though the only vertical legs that can do so are those three vertical legs in the center intersection.  One thing that starts to distort the appearance of the square eights is that the larger the figure is flown, the more distortion there is in the corners not appearing to be the same and the legs not appearing the same.  As the maneuver is flown more nearly to the 45o elevation and the width of the base of each loop is closer to a 45o segment of the circle, the shape will appear more closely looking like a square eight with all corners appearing more the same and all legs appearing more nearly the same.  Not many except for the true golden arms come close to flying the horizontal eights anywhere close to the required 90o segment of the circle.  That is one reason they can make their horizontal square eights look presentable even though many will think the maneuver was too small.

Something to ponder.

Keith

Offline RknRusty

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2015, 11:56:57 PM »
Which model did you fly, Rusty? What was the surface, grass?
Chris...
Chris, I'm flying a Brodak ARF Oriental. Probably got 25 or 30 flights on it. The LG is bent aluminum and the front of the wheels just peeks out from under the LE. The wheels are the ones that came with it, maybe 3", I'm not sure. I have brass sleeves bushing the axles and they spin free and straight. Maybe some narrow ones with low profile rubber to wheel size would help. The grass at Triple Tree is golf course green style with hard packed soil underneath. At other fields with less fancy grass, I can land somewhat better, occasionally icing one in. Only occasionally. The only plane I can mostly land well is my Magnum with the wing mounted gear.

Here's my landing today, starting at 3:27
https://youtu.be/aRkioErMCi8?t=3m27s
DON'T PANIC!
Rusty Knowlton
... and never Ever think about how good you are at something...
while you're doing it!

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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2015, 12:17:51 AM »
This is my Nemesis.........
Keith R

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2015, 01:03:13 AM »
Sorry about that guys.......I couldn't resist!  #^

My "Nemesis" is the reverse wingover. I always had good scores for my square eights and still find them to be the most fun to do. It's also a good test for your model's trim as well. This all comes back to the good stuff on the other thread about "Is it the plane or the pilot?". A lot of the errors from newcomers to stunt come from the model and its trim. Part of the thing is what Brett Buck and others mentioned and that is the power plant that needs to pump out solid, consistent power no matter what the maneuver shape is.

The wiggling of the handle part needs to become something in your subconscious, like driving a car. You don't think about pushing the clutch, changing gears etc. whilst trying to steer the vehicle. It becomes totally automatic. Once you are past trying to figure out how not to pull up when flying inverted over the dreaded tarmac, then your are getting there, and the actual maneuver shapes should not really make any difference. Of course, polishing these shapes to put you in the top 5 at the Nats is another story. Polishing in any sense takes elbow grease and there are few shortcuts. I said "few" instead of "no" shortcuts because the biggest shortcut you can take is to get close to one of the experts and ask for help. There are very few of the top pilots that will not help you. The first thing that they usually do is to check out your plane and once that situation has improved, then they can give you many pointers to go and practice. Always practice with a purpose so that you don't practice perfect mistakes, and here a well-trained observer or coach is a big help.

I said that my Nemesis is the reverse wingover, because not only is it a difficult thing to get right, it's also the first stunt in the pattern, so the nerves play a big part. If you crack a great wingover it is a big boost to your confidence. It also wakes up the judges to want to see more good stuff from you! A good feel for anything like this takes understanding of what you are trying to achieve, and Keith Trostle has (as always) explained the funnies of flying on a spherical surface. To simplify everything, just remember that your tethered model can only fly straight lines and curves, and the "straight" lines are also circles. mw~  This sounds confusing but a straight line, or "great circle path" on a sphere is just a flight path with no change in direction. So to sum this all up. In perfect conditions with no wind, turbulence etc. if the elevator is neutral, then the model will fly straight lines. Any elevator off centre will fly curves, or loops. Once you have a good feeling for these shapes, and you can "fly" them with a finger as if you're really flying the model, getting all of the shapes and angles right, then you are halfway there. The rest is trying to get your model to fly like your finger. It is a good idea to do this in your home where nobody is watching you.........this could cause some damage to your overall reputation! n~

The sides of the square maneuvers are vertical, (in the true technical definition of vertical) and don't worry too much about the top lines being shorter, just try to keep those very short top lines level and parallel to the bottom level flight path. The biggest factors that the judges can see soooo easily are bottoms and intersections. If you get rock solid bottoms consistently at 5 foot, and dynamite intersections that do not shift, you will score good points. It's not easy to get the 45 degree line spot on, and many times judges do not see this easily, but the bottoms and intersections are dead give-aways.

Keith R
Keith R

Dwayne

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2015, 07:38:06 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone. Maybe I'm trying to be to perfect I'll try concentrating on the intersection and bottoms and see how that goes.
thanks again.

Offline Trostle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2015, 09:06:27 AM »
Sorry about that guys.......I couldn't resist!  #^

(Clip)

The sides of the square maneuvers are vertical, (in the true technical definition of vertical) ... (Clip)

Keith R

Hi Keith.

Not trying to nit-pic here, but---

The rules for our AMA squares are different than the FAI rules.  Yes, in F2B, the vertical sides in all of the square maneuvers, including the horizontal square eights are to be vertical to the ground as in 90o to the ground.  The AMA rules only require the intersection legs of the horizontal square eights to be vertical to the ground.  The AMA rules are mute on the how the other near vertical legs of the square eights and the square loops are to be flown.

By the way, I champion your awesome simulation of the FAI pattern every chance I get as well as your explanation of the four leaf clover.

Keith

Dwayne

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2015, 09:56:12 AM »
Hi Keith.

Not trying to nit-pic here, but---

The rules for our AMA squares are different than the FAI rules.  Yes, in F2B, the vertical sides in all of the square maneuvers, including the horizontal square eights are to be vertical to the ground as in 90o to the ground.  The AMA rules only require the intersection legs of the horizontal square eights to be vertical to the ground.  The AMA rules are mute on the how the other near vertical legs of the square eights and the square loops are to be flown.

By the way, I champion your awesome simulation of the FAI pattern every chance I get as well as your explanation of the four leaf clover.

Keith


Where can I find this simulation, please.

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 11:18:51 AM »
Corners. Especially those exiting to an inverted horizontal. Slight down elevator required to maintain horizontal flight not intuitive, at all. Practicing that. The next corner, up elevator, diving towards ground, also hard, since I'm thinking down elevator to maintain horizontal then need to switch attention in an instant to up without over or under turning.

Online Joseph Patterson

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 11:39:18 AM »
   All of it!
         Doug

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 12:05:20 PM »
I'm not going to criticize my own pattern, because the judges have already done that.  Watching many other patterns, I see the most difficult, and most often blown is the reverse wingover.  Notably the  first pullout inverted.  Flyers seem to fear the ground!  I practice this maneuver over and over, and each time trying to wait just a bit longer before the inverted pullout. 
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 06:51:35 PM »
I'm not going to criticize my own pattern, because the judges have already done that.  Watching many other patterns, I see the most difficult, and most often blown is the reverse wingover.  Notably the  first pullout inverted.  Flyers seem to fear the ground!  I practice this maneuver over and over, and each time trying to wait just a bit longer before the inverted pullout. 

That first pullout is a bear.  I've found that if I do two wingovers, the second one is much better.  This lead me to realize that if I force myself to relax and center myself before I signal for launch, I do better at the wingover.

Beyond that -- I score pretty consistently across the board, so I guess that every single damned maneuver is my nemesis.  I could name you problems that I have in each and every one.  The whole PATTERN is my nemesis.  I should take up competitive basket-weaving.
AMA 64232

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Dwayne

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 07:15:12 PM »
That first pullout is a bear.  I've found that if I do two wingovers, the second one is much better.  This lead me to realize that if I force myself to relax and center myself before I signal for launch, I do better at the wingover.

Beyond that -- I score pretty consistently across the board, so I guess that every single damned maneuver is my nemesis.  I could name you problems that I have in each and every one.  The whole PATTERN is my nemesis.  I should take up competitive basket-weaving.
[/b][/i]

 LL~  that's funny, thanks.

Offline johnt4051

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 11:41:26 PM »
Setting aside for the moment that the hardest thing for me to do seems to be to build a working stunt airplane, I would say that the most difficult maneuvers for me are just the ones between takeoff and landing.
  There's a lot of irony in this sport, and here's one: I can fly a combat plane going 115 mph without looking at it and sometimes even put my prop into a 5-foot length of string going the same speed.  But I can't fly a 50-mph airplane through a recognizable overhead eight. (Although, my overhead eights get better the closer I get the speed to 115 mph.)
   ::)
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2015, 04:31:58 AM »
My nemesis is ambition. My mind still has all these ideas about building, flying and competing but the older I get the more I want to take naps and procrastinate.

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2015, 02:35:24 AM »
Where can I find this simulation, please.
Hi Dwayne, there is an old copy on the home page of Stunt Hanger but it is without the clover. I did update it later sometime on 2005 and it was on various sites. It is an old program by today's standard's but still interesting to use, so what I can try to do is to ask Robert (aka Sparky) if he can put the newer version on the site, plus the user manual. Failing that I can stick it in one of the download sites and sent you the link. It was a HUGE program in those days at around 4 megs, but now it is nothing.

I actually need to do a new version because the FAI rules have been changed to be technically/geometrically correct, so things like the top of the squares are now defined as "straight lines" and no longer as parallel to the ground.  Those very short flight paths are so short that it is virtually impossible to fly them parallel to the ground with that small curve as seen on my sim.

That Sim was also written for the high resolution screens of that time, which were 1024 x 768, so remember this if you use it on a modern pc with a 16:9 screen and a much higher resolution. If you don't set the screen for this, then all of the maneuvers will look squashed or oblong.

Keith R
Keith R

Dwayne

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2015, 07:02:25 AM »
Hi Dwayne, there is an old copy on the home page of Stunt Hanger but it is without the clover. I did update it later sometime on 2005 and it was on various sites. It is an old program by today's standard's but still interesting to use, so what I can try to do is to ask Robert (aka Sparky) if he can put the newer version on the site, plus the user manual. Failing that I can stick it in one of the download sites and sent you the link. It was a HUGE program in those days at around 4 megs, but now it is nothing.

I actually need to do a new version because the FAI rules have been changed to be technically/geometrically correct, so things like the top of the squares are now defined as "straight lines" and no longer as parallel to the ground.  Those very short flight paths are so short that it is virtually impossible to fly them parallel to the ground with that small curve as seen on my sim.

That Sim was also written for the high resolution screens of that time, which were 1024 x 768, so remember this if you use it on a modern pc with a 16:9 screen and a much higher resolution. If you don't set the screen for this, then all of the maneuvers will look squashed or oblong.

Keith R

Thanks Keith, I have seen that one, a new version would be awesome, if you could do that, I think a lot of us would be greatly appreciative.
Thanks

Offline bob whitney

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2015, 08:28:29 AM »


  I am with John T  building a plane worthey of being in the same circle as the rest of the Experts
rad racer

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2015, 06:32:24 PM »
My nemesis is finding every excuse in the world not to get off my very old Butt and finish airplanes.  I seem to always find something on TV or a book I haven't read or even an analysis that I did at one time and am still not happy with...anything to keep from sanding and painting...Pitiful Huh!

Oh well there's always tomorrow..."Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Life is but a poor player"....  uhhh yeah you know the rest of William's thesis on lazy old men!

Randy Cuberly
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 02:12:11 PM by Randy Cuberly »
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Offline Don Chandler

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2015, 07:59:11 PM »
The right hand side of the square loop and outside portion of the square 8. Those sides allways end up round!!

Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2015, 11:37:51 AM »
Mine is the OH8, the whole thing, intersection, loop sizes, getting it truly OVERHEAD.

I am amazed no one has mentioned triangles or the hourglass. These are to only 2 maneuvers you can totally blow in the first turn, once you've over-turned it (the mistake most make) or under-turned it, there's no going back, it's lost. You can zig zag the long legs and find the next corners, but the more you do the worse the shapes get.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2015, 12:48:05 PM by Randy Ryan »
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2015, 12:09:29 PM »
Inverted pull out in reverse wingover.  I just cannot seem to wait long enough to make it right, to excited and too much adrenaline.  If I could get in a LOT more practice time, it would get better.  Lack of practice is my real nemesis.

Bill
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2015, 01:49:03 PM »
Don Chandler's nemesis is common to many:  square loops end up being a bit "round".  One should review what Big Art observes on squares.  (paraphrase)  Each corner must be followed immediately by a "blip" of reverse control in order to straighten out the flight path.  A plane following a sharp turn must be "neutralized", or else the turn will continue.   Those full-scale pilots also will know this to be true.

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Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2015, 12:12:49 AM »
A really easy way to help with getting rid "round" squares, is to stretch the sides. Just forget about the correct size with tops at 45 degrees for practicing. Make the maneuver bigger in both directions and get the straight segments "straight"! Even in a competition, you will score more points if the judges can witness four straight line sides. If you have an airplane that stalls or mushes in hard corners, this will also give the model a chance to fly again. The buzz phrase in getting better scores has always been "bottoms and intersections". Get those dead right and your scores will rocket upwards!

Keith R
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: What's your nemesis?
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2015, 04:05:07 PM »
The right hand side of the square loop and outside portion of the square 8. Those sides always end up round!!

The most common reason for that is some loss of line tension on the top corners.  You have to see the airplane turn verticle and point straight at the ground.  This is usually a trim problem.  It takes a fairly good snap on the handle to make that happen and that can make a poorly trimmed airplane lose line tension and you get "round".

Randy Cuberly

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