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Author Topic: Not CL but some very cool FF  (Read 6640 times)

Offline mike londke

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Online John Rist

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2015, 07:34:34 AM »
That was very cool FF.   #^
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Offline Randy Ryan

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2015, 08:10:09 AM »
All very cool, BUT, to say they are "uncontrolled" is a vast error, it implies you build it and throw it and if you're lucky they fly. That's not true. While the "pilot" may not have direct control during the flight, everything he does during building and preflight is in essence "controlling" the craft.

I just wanted to throw that out there, as mainly a FFer I get so tired of people's idea that I am so simple minded I just build 'em and throw 'em to the mercy of the wind!!!!
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2015, 10:39:37 AM »
I have a Jim Walker catapult glider with folding wings, so the idea has been tried.  The gliders in the video went up pretty good, but the glide was poor.  A fast climb isn't very useful if the glide is bad.
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Offline David Hoover

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2015, 10:53:01 AM »
There's some one completely enjoying their hobby - which is what it's all about.
Life is simple. Eat. Sleep. Fly!
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2015, 11:01:05 AM »
Vern Estes (yes, that Vern Estes) invented the first successful boost glider, that boosted straight up and then would glide back down. It was rear-engine, and ejecting the engine released an elevator tab so it would glide. Those (unaltered) are very marginal performers and also hyper-critical on the CG position because the CG shifts the wrong way at ejection. Losing the engine out of the back most the CG forward, not rearward as you would like. I confirmed that the kit version, the Astron Space Plane, would go unstable if the CG was about .005" behind the recommended position. .005" is well within the tolerance on the engine weight. And it had to be heavy overall, otherwise the CG shift was too much to be overcome by the elevator.

   Someone (possibly Larry Renger) came up with the idea of ejecting a pod with a weight in it way up in the nose to overcome this issue, but that was also pretty heavy. Larry used that idea in several pretty neat Estes kits.

The idea to take an HLG and put the engine in the nose was invented by Larry Renger. The first picture isn't exactly his design but a slightly altered kit version of his original SkySlash. It's stable like an arrow on the way up because the engine is by far the heaviest part of the entire thing. Then the engine ejects and that makes it stable in the glide (not to mention the engine ejecting gives it about half the total boost). Larry had one that also actuated an elevator to get around the "death dive" issue from 0-0 gliders - but launched it at Sepulveda basin, and it thermalled out, so he lost the prototype!

    Ejecting the engine is not longer permitted in contests (because it comes whistling down as decent speed). Later, someone realized that you could put a hook on the pylon holding the engine, and eject the entire engine pod (with a streamer or parachute) and then its exactly like an HLG in the glide, and legal. That also led to the invention of the "Red Baron", where the streamer or parachute gets caught on the glider and the entire thing flops down ignominiously in a clump.

   I *may* have invented the swing-wing BG/RG, or at least I was one of the inventors.   Things tend to be invented by multiple people independently around the same time, in this case, the early 70's. I took my original to several contests around then and blew everybody away, who knows what happened afterwards. I figured I could get rid of all that drag on boost by swinging the wing instead, and, I didn't have to take the full load of the 200 mph boost with the deployed wing. It worked and was competitive but is pretty heavy during the glide compared to a pop-pod. It doesn't glide as well but it boosts much higher. The other advantage is that you don't have to worry about boost stability too much. For these little guys (the one below is for 1/2A and A) if it loops into the ground on boost, no real issue, but for a larger one (like a D-E-F) you have an 8 ounce glider looping into the ground at 300 mph, which tends to be frowned upon by the Range Safety Officer.

    Later, someone came up with the idea of a separate event for gliding models that *didn't* eject anything, called Rocket Glide or RG. Most of the designs for that were very marginal (because the CG shift effect was mostly gone). The most popular way was to put the wing on a slide and have it be near the tail during boost and then sliding forward during the glide. Others counted on the loss of propellant, and are so marginally stable on boost that This is where the idea really works well and has no real weight penalty in RG. The one below shown stowed and deployed has rubber bands to swing the wings forward, and threads hold the wing stowed. The threads go through a hole and are burned though by the ejection charge, releasing the wings. This one flew a thermal-inhibited 2:55 at the last contest I flew compared to my competitors who had around 30 seconds if they qualified and the majority, who had various failures (like looping in to the ground under power or failed to glide).

      This was all very hot stuff until someone invented the Rogallo wing BG, or "flexie" (bottom two pictures). The glider part is the 4th picture. There are three spars with a very light music wire spring spreading them out. The film holds it in shape (in this case, .00025 polyethylene "drop cloth" or "dry cleaner bags" material). This one has spruce spars, but you can make them with balsa, and the total gliding weight can easily be under one gram for a 14" span glider. You fold it up and stuff it in the front of a conventional rocket booster (there's a piston that pushes it out and deploys a streamer). This solves BOTH issues (boost drag and gliding weight) and the performance is astronomically better than any conventional balsa model. The trimming of the glider is *incredibly tricky* and if you don't know the trick, they death dive over and over. My  last rocket flight of any kind, in about 2001, was a balsa version, and it did a 40+ minute OOS flight in near dead calm, and I am pretty convinced that there was no thermal, *just a surface Low pressure center* that took it up and to the west very slowly. I stopped after that, figuring there was no way to top that. They made a separate event for this, called flex-wing, FW, or "Flexie" conventional balsa gliders would have a chance.

   All of these can be really fun but the performance possible is so high that losing them is about a 50/50 proposition. This is encouraged by the contest rules that generally *don't have any max", just like FF in the 30's. If you set a 2-minute max in Flexie it would be so trivial that everybody would max out, and if you let it rise, they fly out of the field before it becomes non-trivial. I did 35 minute flight in D Dual Eggloft (parachutes) that flew all the way over the city of Livermore, over the Lawrence Livermore laboratory, and into a cow pasture about 8 miles away. With a model I built in the crudest possible manner in about 45 minutes the night before the contest.

   Brett


  

Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2015, 02:01:01 PM »
             Mike, I was smiles from ear to ear. I loved watching the Spruce Goose. Cool stuff. Ken

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 03:02:41 PM »
FFers are usually pretty good trimmers.
Chris...

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2015, 04:51:39 PM »
That was a wonderful video.  Also cool was reading about Brett's and Larry's parts in the technology.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2015, 06:22:01 PM »
  I seem to remember several boost glider articles by Larry Renger in American Aircraft Modeler? El-Cheap-o or some other catchy name. Might have been in the Junior American Modeler? Model rockets don't really trip my trigger, but a boost glider would. Might have to try one of those some day.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2015, 06:38:14 PM »
FFers are usually pretty good trimmers.
Chris...

FFers are usually good everything. My building/trimming abilities improved greatly after a few years up in Colorado flying FF. Now that I'm back in Texas it's hard to do both FF and CL. Just can't crank out models fast enough!

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 07:29:58 PM »
  I seem to remember several boost glider articles by Larry Renger in American Aircraft Modeler? El-Cheap-o or some other catchy name. Might have been in the Junior American Modeler? Model rockets don't really trip my trigger, but a boost glider would. Might have to try one of those some day.

  Larry has been a noted innovator in all his endeavors. He published one of the first RC BGs, possibly in AAM or Model Aviation. RC wasn't really practical until the mid-80s when the legal liftoff mass was increased from 16 oz to 3.3 lbs, lightweight but powerful APCP propellant was available, and tiny but reliable RC receivers and servos were available.

   The little A RG swing-wing is pretty neat thing, but the giant one were the real trick. There was a construction article in Model Rocketeer for a giant clone of the little one above, that used and "F". If you didn't know, each engine size is twice the "power" of one below it, so an "F" has *64x* the power of an A. The deployed wingspan of the "F" clone was something like 5 feet with a built-up and highly undercambered wing (that you couldn't conceive of without the swing wing, or a flop wing, or whatever), and I would guess it boosted to about 1200-1500 feet. The I can't imagine any modeler not wanting to do that! The "C" model was about 36" and it was majestic in flight.

As a notion as to the change of scale, the little one uses a skinny rubber band about the side of a newspaper rubber band to deploy the wings. The big one used 1/4" surgical tubing like an RC glider hi-start.

   If you want to do it, I would suggest a simple pop-pod BG like the Centuri Swift. That one is pretty small, about like an HLG, and is light enough not to cause too much carnage if something is a little crooked.  BTW, if you think alignment matters on a 55 mph stunt plane, wait till you see how it matters on a 200 MPH boost glider. And you will learn to appreciate the strength of glue when you make butt-glued polyhedral joints in 1/16 balsa and expect them to stay together at those speeds.

    Brett

   

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2015, 07:30:44 PM »
Funny the guys who shot that video are same quad copter, foamy arf, FPV guys that a few on the forum just hate.  in fact, some of that video was filmed on one of the end of the world death of areo modeling as we know it quad copters.  

I subscribe to the flite test forum and they are pretty interesting guys.  

And I want to build a swing wing rocket glider just to see if I can now.


Diversity in modeling is  awesome.

Some control liners should invite the flite test guys in for a visit.  
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2015, 05:10:27 AM »
I think that the boost glider that Dan was referring to was the Cheechako (or something close to that.)  I built one years ago and we had a lot of fun with it.  It used a small motor (liquid = engine, solid = motor, at least at Thiokol), maybe a half-A, and would shoot up very stably and then glide down in a nice wide spiral.  It was a delta with the motor up front.  We had lots of fun with it until my younger brother came back from the hobby shop with the biggest motor that would fit in it ("hey, think how good it'll fly with THIS ONE!!" he says)  On launch the motor pod broke away and sort of disintegrated the whole thing.

Scott

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 06:33:16 PM »
That's some cool stories about the BG stuff.  Its one rocketry thing I've never tried.  Might have to dig up an old kit and mess with that sometime.
Steve

Offline dave siegler

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2015, 08:15:56 PM »
I think that the boost glider that Dan was referring to was the Cheechako (or something close to that.)  I built one years ago and we had a lot of fun with it.  It used a small motor (liquid = engine, solid = motor, at least at Thiokol), maybe a half-A, and would shoot up very stably and then glide down in a nice wide spiral.  It was a delta with the motor up front.  We had lots of fun with it until my younger brother came back from the hobby shop with the biggest motor that would fit in it ("hey, think how good it'll fly with THIS ONE!!" he says)  On launch the motor pod broke away and sort of disintegrated the whole thing.

Scott

this one?

http://www.airplanesandrockets.com/airplanes/cheechako-february-1972-american-aircraft-modeler.htm

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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2015, 08:39:50 PM »
Yup!  That's the one!

We had an awful lot of fun playing with it.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2015, 10:42:15 PM »
...just build 'em and throw 'em to the mercy of the wind!!!!

 But really, that's exactly what you're doing. (kidding) ;D
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2015, 10:57:54 PM »
That's some cool stories about the BG stuff.  Its one rocketry thing I've never tried.  Might have to dig up an old kit and mess with that sometime.

   Most of the old kits are dreadful, btw. Get the plans from JimZ. The design of some of them is a little dubious as well. The Astron Falcon above has an OK design for the fuselage, with a 1/16" balsa built in "T" cross-section. But - you have to glue the wing halves to either side of the keel. Not only is it weaker than gluing the wing halves together with a butt joint, then to the fuselage, it's also extremely difficult to align properly without a jig of some sort. And even a slight misalignment and it loops into the ground before you even know what happened.

    The first time I went to a group launch at LUNAR (Livermore Unit of the NAR), they called all my flights "heads up" flights because not one of the several hundred people present had ever seen a successful boost glider flight. This was the launch where I launched it, it circled around directly over the range head, and I caught it within about 100 feet of the launcher, and I caught it - on 4-5 flights. Next launch, half the launches were BG flights, almost all of which crashed.

     Building and successfully flying something like the Astron Space Plane (easy to build, hair-trigger to trim) or the Falcon (a much better design but much harder to build) is so far beyond the usual experience and skill set of the average model rocket sport flier that it might as well be magic. You can obviously manage it but the usual guy at a sport launch, not a chance.

     Brett

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2015, 08:35:50 AM »
Estes currently has at least two glider kits, the Tercel and the Skydart II. I have both and they fly well. Rather heavy, though for where we fly, limited duration is a good thing!

The original Skyslash was indeed a one flight wonder as I flew it from Briggs Field at MIT and after a straight boost, lovely transition to a good glide, it was never seen again!

G Harry Stein claimed to have invented a pop-pod system about the same time I did, but I published first.  #^

The RC boost glider was the Sky Dancer and it was published in American Modeler in 1969. It had about 48" wingspan. I don't recall the weight, but servos weighed well over an ounce and the receiver at least two. Aileron and Elevator control.
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2015, 09:10:08 AM »
The RC boost glider was the Sky Dancer and it was published in American Modeler in 1969. It had about 48" wingspan. I don't recall the weight, but servos weighed well over an ounce and the receiver at least two. Aileron and Elevator control.

     Back in the days of the 16-ounce limit (and you probably know this), they had to get FSI to make and certify special lightweight F engines.  Basically, they were regular F7s with about half the paper case peeled away to get under the limit. Of course, people had been peeling them all along, illegally.

   It's far easier now, the RC equipment is far better and smaller, and it's easy to boost one nearly out of sight on an E. Again the performance potential is so astronomically high that it tends to take a lot of the challenge out of it. Mine has a V-tail for rudder and elevator.

      Brett

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2015, 09:24:33 AM »
Thanks for the tip, I had forgotten about JimZ completely.  I printed out the Falcon plans the other day, I may cut one out while waiting for my backordered dope to arrive so I can resume finishing the new plane.  I found an original Skydart kit in the stash as well if I get bored...
Steve

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2015, 01:56:45 PM »
Who is Jim Z?
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2015, 03:53:41 PM »
Its a site for old rocket plans:

http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/estes.htm

Steve

Offline Larry Renger

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2015, 09:00:03 AM »
WOW! thanks.  H^^
Think S.M.A.L.L. y'all and, it's all good, CL, FF and RC!

DesignMan
 BTW, Dracula Sucks!  A closed mouth gathers no feet!

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2015, 12:35:46 PM »
Since I am stuck waiting on a dope order I put together a Falcon from items in the scrap bin:
Steve

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2015, 01:05:13 PM »
Since I am stuck waiting on a dope order I put together a Falcon from items in the scrap bin:

  Excellent, slap a 1/2A6-2 in there and see what happens!   BTW, by using 4 lb wood and launching with a B4-2 - I managed to cause a wing failure due to flutter, not at the joint but about 2/3 of the way out the span, right across the grain!  It still did about 45 seconds

   Brtt

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2015, 01:51:21 PM »
Glide trimming will be done here but powered flight may have to wait till a quiet evening on the grass circles at Muncie.  if it flies half decently it will end up in a tree or the roof of the school if I launch it locally.  If it ends up in the soybeans at least there will be a *chance* of recovering it!
Steve

Online Brett Buck

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Here you go!
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2015, 09:49:13 PM »
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I found this on eBay recently. It's a clone of the Centuri Swift boost-glider. The engine goes in a pod, and the pod falls off, leaving a small but typical HLG floating around at 200-1000 feet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Semroc-Flying-Model-Rocket-Kit-Swift-Boost-Glider-KV-27-/161797528156?hash=item25abe25a5c

   Brett
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 10:31:32 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2015, 06:19:35 AM »
Hey Steve:

We should have been flying your boost-glider at Eastern Shore on Saturday at the after-contest party!  We'll have to check with Tim to see if that is okay.  I could  bring my Chechako.  So, try not to loose it in a beanfield until then....

Scott

Offline Brad Smith

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2015, 11:12:51 AM »
Heck its ok sounds like fun look tim will have a new bislob then too

Brad smith AMA780054

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2015, 12:47:04 PM »
Hey Steve:

We should have been flying your boost-glider at Eastern Shore on Saturday at the after-contest party!  We'll have to check with Tim to see if that is okay.  I could  bring my Chechako.  So, try not to loose it in a beanfield until then....

Scott

  The JimZ site has the plans, too, of course. The glider is easy enough to build with normal modeling materials (although your craftsmanship will be tested with the dihedral joints - butt-glued 1/16 balsa at 250 mph!) but the tube and nose cone might be more difficult - so a kit makes sense.

   Also be sure and attach the shock cord to the UPPER side of the body tube, not the sides or the bottom (where the glider resides). Fail to do that, and you will encounter the dreaded "Red Baron", where the chute or shock cord gets tangled around the glider and it all falls to the ground in a heap. In fact, you might substitute a streamer for the parachute, for the same reason.

  Beware flying this in any significant wind, with thermals around, or on more powerful engines - it can EASILY thermal out or just fly away. It will fly fine on a C6-3 if the wing joints are good. But you better be ready to chase. That's actually one of the negative things about NAR/modroc competition. The performance can be so astronomical that you might lose it on every flight.

  Brett

Offline Jim Kraft

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2015, 01:36:50 PM »
Deleted
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 02:39:18 PM by Jim Kraft »
Jim Kraft

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2015, 08:00:14 PM »
Scott, You are right, although the time to fly it would have been Sunday morning early when the air was dead.  I flew it again at home, and got a wonderful long glide that ended in a 90 foot tall tree.  The good news is that I recovered the glider without a scratch at the base of the tree!  No more local flights, though-it performs much too good on a 1/2 A6 to fly around here!
Steve

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: Not CL but some very cool FF
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2015, 08:04:38 PM »
So, next summer at Eastern Shore we can launch it off the top of Tim's new Bi-Slob?


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