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Author Topic: How Much is Plane  (Read 4834 times)

Offline Motorman

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How Much is Plane
« on: May 13, 2015, 12:48:00 PM »
What % of a good stunt pattern is plane and how much is pilot skill?

I started with a couple of ARF planes with greaser motors and they would run different every flight. Through dogged determination over the course of 2 years I learned the beginner pattern and finally won a local contest. Crashed one sold the other one.

Then I built a Brodak Tanager kit with electric motor. Plane flys the same every flight and I learned the full pattern in 2 months.  Also built a Sig Banshee with the same electric system. It's a little squirly but fun for sport flying. 

Now I'm wondering, since the Tanager flys so good for me, how much would I gain going through the motions of building something better. Maybe I should just keep slappin' Brodak profile kits together and practice all I can?

Thanks,
MM   

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 12:55:14 PM »
I have a datum on that, Motorman.  On one Nats flight, I tripped and fell on my butt while landing.  The airplane landed itself.  The landing recieved an 11.  I typically get a 33 when I land the airplane.  Therefore, it's 1/3 airplane, 2/3 pilot.

Hope this helps.
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 01:01:57 PM »
I'd say to strive towards using the best equipment you can so you aren't limiting your flying potential.  When you are past the profile stage then leave them behind for better engines and airplanes.  At the same time remember to burn more fuel than apply glue and dope.

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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 01:21:34 PM »
But seriously, I think, based on limited experience relative to lots of folks here, that there is a heap of score in a well trimmed airplane that's also a good design.  Picking a design is bewildering.  An surefire way is to pick one that's won Open at the Nats.  Name-brand stunt guys put a heck of a lot of work into fiddling with their airplanes to optimize them.  Then follow what's-his-name's trim process from recent Stunt News issues. 

I would also suggest Igor Burger's Max Bee.  Winning the last two world championships and the last two European championships suggests that he is onto something.   
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 01:44:52 PM »
If you can tell a distinct improvement in going to a better plane, then you needed a better plane.

That having been said, there's still a huge amount of the score that's in the pilot's hands.  Today I'm flying close to the bottom of Expert with a Twister, and I'm building a Legacy.  I expect that when I'm done with the Legacy and have it trimmed out, I'll be flying close to the bottom of Expert with a Legacy, only I'll be getting maybe 10 points more per flight because the plane is better than the Twister.  I have a lot more points to get by way of better intersections, shapes, sizes, and generally better piloting than I do by having a plane that flies a bit more smoothly, ignores the wind a bit better, and doesn't change its @#$% roll trim every time the sun shines down on its Monocoat.

People have demonstrated again and again that in the hands of the right pilot a Sig Skyray or a Flight Streak can exceed 500 points in a fair contest.  So piloting matters a lot.
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 02:06:06 PM »
I don't know. I'm pretty convinced that Paul Walker could beat me if I was flying his world beater and he was flying a poorly trimmed Ringmaster.
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Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2015, 02:22:35 PM »
Trim. Consistent engine or motor run. Optimizing power system for specific plane. I've flown at least one Ringmaster that did an excellent pattern.


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Offline Fred Pach

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2015, 02:52:29 PM »
It depends of wich level the pilot is. Top pilots needs really good plane to make diference. Bad pilots can have the best plane in the world and don't make any difference.

All sports are the same. F1, Indy, Nascar... If the man is good and every body around him are good too, any advantages from the equipament will make diference. On the other hand, if the man is bad and every body around him are bad too, equipaments advantages won't make much diference.

 H^^

Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 03:03:48 PM »
Another way to think about it is that a top flier knows how milk the most from a marginal airplane,  a novice will be restrained by the marginal airplane.  When the airplane does goofy stuff was it the airplane or the pilot?  Fighting it doesn't help the learning process very much.  One can also become accustomed to a slouch machine  and not realize it.

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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 03:41:49 PM »
It depends of wich level the pilot is. Top pilots needs really good plane to make diference. Bad pilots can have the best plane in the world and don't make any difference.

  I disagree with this, strenuously. Getting a good airplane/engine combination is *critical* to learning to fly stunt successfully. Most of the people I see, particularly beginners, are severely inhibited by their equipment. Give them a properly trimmed and powered airplane, and they suddenly become very good pilots.

  One of the big tragedies of this event is that almost everyone starts out with poor airplanes (50s-style sport planes, trainers with ancient slag engines, modified engines, ARFs, obsolete scratch-builts or kits etc) trying to keep it "simple" and cause themselves great difficulty. They thrash and thrash and thrash, never getting a lot better or progressing only slowly despite Herculean effort, learn bad habits, and blame themselves.

   On the other hand, really good airplanes (and I have flown many NATS winners and routine top-5 airplanes) are almost always dead-easy to fly. The only issue is that they are difficult to build. Even tiny trim changes can have the same effect. A local flier who I decline to name was thrashing away in the mid 400s for years, we got his airplane out one day, ended up changing the venturi by .005" and he suddenly picked up about 25 points in the space of 4 flights.

  The problem of course, is knowing how to get your airplane/engine to fly well in the first place and that's where being a beginner really prevents it. That's why I absolutely harp on these simple airplanes with *box stock* engines. You need to know nearly nothing to get your Skyray 35/25LA to work, aside from being able to read.

  But it is absolutely *crucial* to get a good-flying combination, nothing is more important. Interestingly, a huge fraction of that is the *engine and prop* and most of the rest is *trim*. The design, if it's in the ballpark, doesn't make much difference.

   Brett
   

Offline jim gilmore

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 04:18:13 PM »
I am going make some blantent statments with little actual proof but here Goes. Regardless of the sport, from what I have seen and there are  lots to choose from. Model aircraft flying target shooting with bow and arrows.  Even fishing. This one phrase we use in archery should sum it all up.
99% of the time it is the nut behind the string.
Yes some planes are real dogs. But often average pilots with not know a good plane from a average plane.
And some pilots will grab the controls of that average plane and make it look great.
More of it seems to be a learning process for the pilot, and then a process of finding what works for each pilot.

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 04:18:40 PM »
Well,
Obviously I agree with Brett!
However I'm going to be a little more specific.  If you can fly the complete pattern reliably and don't panic on every flight and really want to work on simply improving the quality of your maneuvers and your score, then build an Impact or a Trivial Pursuit and fly it.  While you're flying it build another one.

Use an engine that is designed for realibility and specificly designed for Stunt like a PA65 or 61 on a pipe, or a ROJett 61 or 67 on a pipe, set the engine and pipe up according to Randy Smith or Richard Oliver (in the case of RO Jett), and Fly, Fly, Fly!

Seriously!  If you want to learn to be serious about stunt then for heavens sake don't try to reinvent the wheel (or airplane and engine).  At least not until you're capable of consistently flying 560 or better patterns. As Brett pointed out, the absolute most important thing about learning is also the absolute most important thing about being competitive...Good top level equipment that is properly trimmed.  One thing that has been mentioned but maybe not emphaticly enough, is that a top level airplane and engine combination that is properly trimmed is much...MUCH easier to fly than the typical "cute" stunter!

Notice...I said, If you want to be serious about STUNT!  It takes a serious committment to be competitive.  All you have to do is read a little about the top fliers and you realize that although they are human just like the rest of us they are totally commited to flying stunt!

You can't mess around with marginal equipment and expect to ever fly with that crowd!  Believe me they don't fly Ringmasters for a reason!

I didn't mention electric power because I believe it currently adds another dimension of learning to an already complicated process.
The top guys that are flying electric didn't start with electric and I believe things are a little different in the learning curve!

No I don't want to start a debate about electric vs slimers.  If you're comfortable with electric go that route if you like.  It obviously can be very successful but it adds a different approach in the power and trimming learning curve.

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 04:33:14 PM »
I agree with Dave and Brett and Randy (except for maybe the powerplant part).
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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 06:09:28 PM »
If a guy can score 600 points with a Ringmaster, in front of legitimate judges, you hafta wonder how much the plane really matters.

Offline Steve Fitton

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2015, 07:21:09 PM »
Bretts reply is the path to excellence.  I wish I had had access to that information when I started, it would have saved me about 30 wrecked planes and years of aggravation.
Steve

Offline Dennis Moritz

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2015, 12:07:58 AM »
An all out stunt design needs to be built straight, aligned absolutely straight, with controls correctly adjusted. Same as Twister or a Tanager. Except it's harder to do. A piped stunt engine with a carbon prop must be tuned in same as any other 2 stroke. Tanks. Fuel. Prop diameter, pitch. If the skills of getting a greaser to run are not mastered with an LA25 or LA46, seems to me a modeler would not have an easy time with a PA on a pipe. How a flyer/builder figures all that by themselves is beyond me. Where's your mentor? Who's your mentor? Sophisticated models mean complicated trim and construction challenges. Better get some help. Live help. Comments at a distance, without inspecting your model and engine set up, observing your system in flight, can only go so far in fixing and optimizing. I've seen many an all out competition design out of trim being hustled along by a $400 dollar engine not tuned to the model. Sometimes not even running evenly or at a useable speed. Not conducive to scoring well. Not an asset to the learning curve.

The comparatively sophisticated stunt profiles are great for the stunt learning process. An imitation, Cardinal, MoBest, Brodak War Bird Stunters and the like are great in between models. The straight wing designs, especially, give a less experienced modeler, a good shot at building a true wing without warps. The controls are out in the open, easily adjusted. Tank and engine available to inspect and trouble shoot. Orientals an appropriate bridge to full fuselage competition planes. I'd go in steps. Which is what I am choosing to do.

Foam core wings can be purchased for a reasonable price, all things considered. If you install the controls and build a fues your work is BOM qualified. A foam core wing made straight has many virtues.

Offline RknRusty

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2015, 01:52:05 AM »
Brett's description of a frustrated beginner is the spitting image of my almost 2 year path to where I am now. Now finally Intermediate, scoring in mid 400s(in the friendly confines of my home field contests), it was like flipping on the skill switch when I took to the air with my Oriental. My first full fuse ARF, carefully built and timmed with good advice, was like suddenly getting an injection of talent. I was beginning to believe I just wasn't a natural at stunt. That might be still be true, but the leap I've taken in the past month is an incredible boost to my confidence.

I'd been struggling with an old Shoestring and an uncooperative overpowered Thunder Tiger. I got some better with an old Skyray Ray Copeland gave me. Some better again with a Ukey and a good running 25, and when the Oriental came along it was like flipping a switch. Now I complete the pattern every time with no bailouts and can start to concentrate on things like why my OH8s are so so horrible and how to land without floating and bouncing. What a relief!
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Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2015, 02:07:32 AM »
If a guy can score 600 points with a Ringmaster, in front of legitimate judges, you hafta wonder how much the plane really matters.

I'll guarantee you it was a hell of a Ringmaster no matter who was flying it.
Chris...

Offline Larry Fernandez

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2015, 09:05:59 AM »
I'll guarantee you it was a hell of a Ringmaster no matter who was flying it.
Chris...

Or a very generous judge.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2015, 11:50:16 AM »
I remember a story and I verified it with our legend Bob Palmer.   He was at a contest and one of the competitors was complaining that he could fly as well as Bob if he had planes like Bobs.   So Bob made a deal along with the contest management in that they would trade planes for the day.   He wanted a couple of flights on the plane first.   Needless to say Bob won again with a plane he had not flown til that day.   I think the other guy started learning how to trim a plane and practice.   Now I won't tell you to go to a different plane,  but if you are comfortable with a design, stay with it and figure how to improve on it.   Me I just like to build and fly when I can and don't expect to be a national champ.
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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2015, 12:16:51 PM »
A well built and well trimmed plane helps of course but the person on the handle makes it poetry in motion.

Mike

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2015, 12:25:53 PM »
I remember a story and I verified it with our legend Bob Palmer.   He was at a contest and one of the competitors was complaining that he could fly as well as Bob if he had planes like Bobs.   So Bob made a deal along with the contest management in that they would trade planes for the day.   He wanted a couple of flights on the plane first.   Needless to say Bob won again with a plane he had not flown til that day.   I think the other guy started learning how to trim a plane and practice.   Now I won't tell you to go to a different plane,  but if you are comfortable with a design, stay with it and figure how to improve on it.   Me I just like to build and fly when I can and don't expect to be a national champ.

   This is not relevant to the question at hand - of course Bob Palmer can make a good show of it, that's not the issue. The question is how well less-skilled pilots can advance in their ability to fly. In the case you cite, I would expect that the other guy flew tremendously better than he had before and Bob flew less well. Just not enough to make up the difference.

   Experts can handle less-than-ideal situations FAR better than beginners, so in fact they can be competitive with airplane far out of trim or with the engine running marginally. Many times some of the airplane in the Open Top 5 have clear issues that should be fixed, but the pilots manage it.  BEG/INT/ADV cannot handle it nearly as well, and are far more daunted by problems, and are far more inhibited by it.

   Brett

Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2015, 01:40:07 PM »
Good friend that fly's Expert says "Just don't ask the airplane to do anything it can't".

Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2015, 02:00:32 PM »
MM,
(I wish people would use their name.)

You just said it. "much would I gain going through the motions of building something better"

You have progressed very fast.  Leave the old profiles behind. While there are a few modern profiles that are good (Tom Morris sells a good electric one)  you will be much better off with a solid platform that a full bodied airplane provides.

There a few Classics that would give you a two event airplane. If you are really serious, the airplanes mentioned above will get you there faster. Remember it must be straight and well trimmed.

Brett's advice on airplanes is right on, except that again, I would forget the profiles.  Over the years I have had people tell me that they were not ready to go to a built up fuselage, when in fact it was the airplane that was holding them back.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2015, 02:16:31 PM »
Good friend that fly's Expert says "Just don't ask the airplane to do anything it can't".

  Exactly - and the more expert you are, the better you are able to do that, and to be able to work around the problems.

  This same effect is also why you see so many more people who are competitive than back in the good old days. The old masters from 50s-'85 were much better at working around the problems, because the problems were always present to some degree or another. Now, with turn-key engines with overkill power, the need to be able to make presentable mistakes is greatly diminished, particularly in bad conditions.

    Brett

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2015, 05:15:56 PM »
Or a very generous judge.

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Offline RknRusty

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2015, 04:33:10 PM »
This has been a good thread Motorman, thanks for starting it.

Lots of enlightening insight from various points of view. It's  hard for a beginner like me to realize when we're fine tuning mistakes. I do have a patient coach whom I've probably frustrated something awful. He's a judge and model builder(and full size planes) more often than a competitor, but has worked me through trimming issues despite my hard head needing to be told everything more than once. Now if I can just squeeze him out of Intermediate so I can bring home the gold Lol.
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2015, 08:45:59 AM »
What % of a good stunt pattern is plane and how much is pilot skill?

MM   

This is a very good topic.  If you dont mind I think I will use it as a topic for my next column in SN?  I will post my thoughts here as well.

Thanks
Doug
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2015, 09:34:02 AM »
The opening line is, “What % of a good stunt pattern is the plane and how much is the pilot?”

I have thought about this many times over the years and watched many people work their way up through the various stages of control line stunt. I would like to weigh in on it here. 

There is a fine balance between plane and pilot as to how much is one or the other. I remember learning the pattern on a stock SIG Twister and a fox 35.  It was not a pretty sight that is for sure. One of the major keys to success was being able to reliably start the motor and get nearly the same run each time.  By that I mean a few flips and “generally” the same speed.  I am not talking stunt run here just generally the same expected run flight to flight. 

With today’s options the goal of the beginning flier should be to acquire equipment that will be somewhat reliable.  By this I mean fuel tank and motor.  OS products, for example, are great because the always start and typically run the same flight to flight. If you have local fliers you can tag along with it would make sense to run what they run or something very similar that way they can help out of needed.  But typically experienced fliers running any kind of IC will be able to help get things going in the right direction. Going it alone and picking motors and tanks based on no experience can often lead to less than desired results. (Note to experienced fliers helping out the new guy: Don’t overload a new flier with information about what you “have to have” and the perfect stunt run etc. Keep them going with what they have with small guidance here and there. That is how a few locals at the beginning treated me and it was very helpful to get me going. Unless it’s safety related)

For an electric setup, copy one that is working. You want a simple timer as well.  Nothing fancy at this point we are just looking for repeatable flight after flight runs.

I touched on the topic above first because these items need to be, for the most part, squared away before you can actually know if your skills have surpassed the plane you are flying. Once the somewhat repeatable engine run/electric run have been achieved it is time to evaluate what you are flying and how well is it serving you.  A new twister with minimal flights and only a few dings on it is a good candidate to keep using.  A blasted twister with three complete fuse rebuilds and the tail glued in several times maybe hindering you more than it is helping. During the early stages of development it can go pretty quick from solo/level flight to loops and onto the beginner pattern. This really depends on how often you get to fly. I would think often would be a couple of flight sessions a week. Some may feel fairly often is once a month.  At once a month the skills will progress very slowly. At a couple of times a week for 3-4 flights at a time you could get through the early stages pretty quick.

You will need to be building something as well all the time as you will progress past the models ability pretty quickly.  Your building skills will be progressing along with your flying skills and if they aren’t or you are stumped on how to do something reach out for help, chances are that bridge has been crossed before.  This is where you see guys asking the plane to do more than it can. They are ready for a more competitive design but don’t have one so they press the one they have and the results are not as desired. The model falters in places and does not perform. Once you can perform the pattern with some level of consistency and crashing is not part of your game anymore it is time to move on to a full bodied plane.  I am not knocking the profile at all just simply stating a simple straight forward 35/46 sized full bodied stunter can really help a flier move. Something simple like the Allen Brickhaus designed Buccaneer 740 and an LA46 can be competitive all the way through expert.  Plus it’s easy to fit in your car. The design is such that standard trim procedures will get you a good flying plane in just a few flight sessions.  It is also a great tool for learning to trim. Fighting twisted profile that has been crashed many times will only lead to frustration because trim changes won’t be consistent flight to flight. A simple straight forward design will have a pretty wide trim range you don’t have to get it so exact before it will perform at a high level. Your flying and trimming skill will still be progress rapidly once you have a very solid straight stunt plane to work with.  You may surpass the models ability pretty quickly.  But somewhere along the way the experiences from the profile will help you figure out how much you can ask of the new model before it falters.  Those days of “milking” the bashed up twister through some pretty rough looking patterns helps you learn to “fly” the model as opposed to “point and pull” on an over powered pipe rig.

I feel it is very important for the beginning flier to be flying beginning models.  Since this is a model aviation event ones skills will progress across the whole “process” as opposed to just one area, flying.  If you start out with a very well built competitive stunt model that is ahead of your skill set you will have missed out on the very important foundation that is learned with the beat-up profile.  As you proceed through your stunt like your skills will improve across the whole spectrum, flying, building, and trimming, at the same time. One area may progress faster than the other but that is normal.  I could fly well long before I could build a really good high end stunt plane. I also feel it is beneficial for the experienced fliers to fly other models as opposed to their top rig all the time. It helps keep the reflexes sharp, keeps the feeling of “flying” the plane at hand and can open your eyes to possible trim errors on the “nats” plane once you get back to it.

I hear it pretty often Paul Walker could beat us all with a Ringmaster, maybe that is true but only because he learned really “fly” the plane somewhere along the way.

The early days of learning the pattern and flying in every condition possible, especially the ones uou should not be flying in, is what really teaches us how to “fly” the plane. The middle level of our stunt careers teaches us how to build and trim competitive models.  The top end of our careers becomes a quest for the best setup for all situations. That is found in the tiny details from the very first piece of wood that is cut. That mirror shine that is found after hours and hours of sanding and buffing, yes I like my stunt planes shiny. Along with the hours and hours in the flying circle learning to run motors, trim the planes, and pull on the handle. The humbling experience of that second place finish that tells you more has to be done to get to the top.  And that “never give up” attitude that it takes to really nail down a good stunt pattern tells me that without a doubt it is the pilot, or contestant I should say since we really are more than just the pilot in this event, that makes a really good stunt pattern.

Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2015, 05:18:02 PM »
This is kinda tangential to the main thrust of the thread, but:

For a beginner, a Skyray 35 or similar, with an LA 25, is excellent because (a) everything is hanging out in the breeze where you can see it work and work on it, (b) due to the wing and fuselage construction, when you bonk it you can fix it easily, (c) with no flaps there's less trimming to mess up, and (d) with an LA 25 and the right tank, operation will be trouble-free (ditto for an FP 20 if you can find it, and if you didn't build your Skyray too heavy).  The only improvement I could see to that would be a Skyray-ish plane that's sized for the LA 46.

But profile fuselages flex, and what the Skyray wing gives up for its bonk-ability is torsional stiffness that'll hold trim, and it's a little plane, etc.  Basically, most of the features that make it a good beginer's plane hold you back once you're not crashing all the time.

Just moving up from the Skyray/Flight Streak class of plane to a Fancherized Twister (with a wide hollow fuselage, so it's more torsionally stiff than usual, but will get damaged more in a crash) was a great help for me.  While I haven't hit the limits of the plane yet, I'm currently being held back by its size and its twisty wing (similar deal to the Skyray -- crash resistance that makes it crawl around in twist on a sunny day).

I don't think you should ever accept that you've run out of room for improvement to the plane -- but I do think that getting more plane than you need is a waste.  Certainly in the case of some big delicate full-fuse thing that breaks into bitty pieces in the same crash that would leave a Skyray needing an hour of reconstruction, I think that there's a time to move up, and it's counter-productive to move up too early.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Keith Renecle

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Re: How Much is Plane
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2015, 11:38:57 PM »
Wow......thanks to Doug Moon for summing it all up so well! Learning to "fly" the model right away on a basic trainer is something that I have always tried hard to teach every person that I have trained. The idea of actually being in control and steering the model so that it's not just a case of wiggle the handle, close you eyes and hope for the best, is the only way to go. You mention the reliable power plant, and in fact when I started on my governor timer system, it was all about finding a cheap electric power package that worked as well as the typical FP.40/LA .46 type of run so that I could get beginners going a lot easier than with engines. Some times when you're training someone, you waste a lot of time when you get a few flights that just don't have a good engine run. With an electric system you switch on and fly every flight the same, so more good training flights can be achieved in the same time. The other feature on my timer system that shuts down the motor if the prop gets jammed, was also aimed at beginners on take-off on rough grass fields, or for that inevitable prang. You don't want to burn out motors and esc's! The biggest Kick for me in C/L is teaching and sharing the fun with others, and e-power was a giant leap forward in this teaching process.

As things worked out, by being able to use low cost Chinese standard R/C esc's and cheap motors, a power package with my system worked out to be about the same cost as any LA.40/.46 setup, and works so much better in flight.......every time! The other neat thing is that you can fly the model without paint.....especially that fuel proof clear coat. My last few planes have all been tested with a basic coat of dope on them before finishing, and that is just impossible on slimers'! So for anyone starting out, that is the easiest way to go, especially now with ready-to-run packages available.

Keith R
Keith R


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