Line twists

[Rick Bollinger]

I am now making my own sets from .015 7 strand. wrapping and length is not a problem. But when I use them each line is twisted like contest rubber. I can un wrap them individually fly then have a hard time un wrapping the pair because they are twisted again. Do I need to stretch these before I use them the first time or is it just junk cable?
Thanks
Rick

[jim gilmore]

Not to sound strange, but how do you place them on a roll/holder... are they laid out and rolled up or are you wrapping them around the holder/reel by hand ??

[Rick Bollinger]

Both lines are un-hooked both ends then the spool is turned to roll up the lines. They are the fly by wire brand of cable. It is each individual cable that is twisting.

[Fred Underwood]

Fly by Wire has less twists per foot than MBS and others.  They are less flexible and seem to have a mind of their own.  The lines tried to untwist/unravel further when cut to make new lines. I did find that they seemed to behave better after a pull test or stretch equivalent.  That said, they seem to work fine with a little more care winding and unwinding.  I do not wind/unwind with them unhooked.

MBS has more twists and do not seem to unravel, better set in the twists.

[Rick Bollinger]

Thanks  Fred
Who is MBS? I would just get a new spool. These are a pain in the butt.

[Dane Martin]

http://mbsmodelsupply.com/

Lots of great modeling supplies

[Don Main]

Wish I would have read this before, I too had the lines untwist. Although I have had no problems while unrolling or flying

[john e. holliday]

Well, when you get supplies from a modeler that uses what he sells, you know it works.

[rich gorrill]

MBS wire is head and shoulders above fly-by-wire. I threw out the roll I had after getting MBS wire. No comparison

Rich

[Rick Bollinger]

Thanks I will order a roll this week.

[Keith Miller]

I also wish I'd read this before I tried to make sets from 0.015" Fly-By-Wire 7-strand. After cutting 4 equal lengths laid out on the ground and winding them onto a spool (simply spinning the spool), the lines became severely entwined after simply unrolling the spool.

[Steve Riebe]

I want to watch this thread as I have also had difficulties with the fly by wire product. When I roll out 60 feet or so and cut the wire unravels for at least a foot.  I have learned to compensate for this by cutting the wire long then a second cut to get the length I want.  Once the ends are made up I secure one end then walk them out several times as they are quite twisted.  I've had no failures while flying using wrapping technique to form the ends. I have had failures using crimp sleeves which I won't use any more.

[mike londke]

Fly By Wire is junk. It's not worth the few bucks you save. MBS is the only way to go.

[Jim Kraft]

Besides that, Melvin is a heck of a nice guy and so is his wife Brenda. They are modelers from way back and know their stuff.

[john e. holliday]

MBS Model Supply,  only place to get solids or cable lines, also a whole lot of other modeling stuff.

[Rick Bollinger]

I did get a roll from MBS and it is great stuff. I have had none of the problems I had with Fly by Wire. I did not have any failures with fly by wire but did not like the way it twisted and grabbed on to each other.

[Dan Berry]

I have noticed something that I didn't understand.
When I run the lines they will bind up like there is a LOT of twist even though they only really have two or three loops when I get to the handle.
Is the OP's syndrome the same as what I'm experiencing?

[Rick Bollinger]

Yes that's part of it. They grab to each other when you try to run them out. Its like they are extremely dirty and rough.

[Bill Johnson]

I have a roll of .012 and .015 from FBW. Just waiting for some good weather to measure out some sets but this has me concerned I'll be wasting my time.

Before I bought it, I did some searching here but didn't find any negative feedback. On the Cablestrand website, they list RSM as a seller and the provided link takes you right to RSM's website where the bulk cable is sold. Now I'm wondering if I should have asked Eric, but I think it would have been extremely rude to ask him then buy the same product for half the price on Ebay.

[Fred Underwood]

I used it for most of a season, a few hundred flights.  It comes with less twists/inch and seems to want to unwind when unrolled, especially with a cut end.  Some may become unusable from unwind on the end. Use clamp or tape on the end.  I also thought that it was easier to kink and required a bit more care, used on paved circles only.  All that said, most of the problem was making up the lines, not flying.

[Frank Imbriaco]

I recently bought a  1000' spool of .015 FBW on Amazon. I could not unspool the first 175' feet or so because of  many overlaps. After much frustration, I cut that amount and more away. Referred the problem to Amazon and got a full refund.
Meanwhile, I bought a roll from Melvin, but haven't  used any yet.

Back to the FBW, I did successfully release enough to cut a few sets for sport flying. I saw that they have a propensity to stick, so I used the wide Brodak reels for more room. Will have to wait and see if that helps.

[john e. holliday]

You will not have that problem with Melvin's bulk cable or wire.   I have two rolls of .015 that have the end done on the roll.  When ready to make a set of lines I hook the end to the plane and roll out to the handle and make handle ends.   While I have the stuff handy I do the end on the roll again.

[Brett Buck]

   I use the cable from either MBS or RSM. MBS is always right there at the NATs, which is about the only time I ever shop for hobby items. I have also used Pylon/Sullivan with no issues. I had a few bad experiences with SIG a long time ago, but those problems seem to have since been solved.

   Use only 1x7 cables or Laystrait 1x3 soldered lines.  The 1x19 types tend to get "pulls" in the line after a while, where single strands come loose from the bundle, no matter how careful you are. It's much as described above. They also tend to stretch more due to the higher winding pitch (which is probably *why* they get pulls).

    I would like to get the right-sized Yatsenko cables to try. They may be 1x5 or 1x7, but the wire they are made from appears to be much stiffer than the stainless we use. Also, because I loaned Yuri my 1000' reel of .018 so they could make up AMA lines for the 2004 NATS and never got it back...

      Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Yep, the Russian lines work better than stainless with same diameter, they are lighter and flex less. But the price you pay is shorter service life. Once the yellow coating (copper?) wears exposing the carbon steel, they start to corrode and become a little sticky. Especially in damp weather. For that reason they should be lightly oiled (WD-40, kerosene, turbine oil..) during storage and just wiped dry with a dry cloth before flight.
Today they also sell nickel plated lines, perhaps they last longer..?
But on the other hand, oily surface attracts dust which makes wear faster. But if you can live with that and replace them a little more often than stainless lines, they are very nice.
Brett, if you want to test, I can send you a set. I have a big pile of them.

Lauri

[Brett Buck]

Yep, the Russian lines work better than stainless with same diameter, they are lighter and flex less. But the price you pay is shorter service life. Once the yellow coating (copper?) wears exposing the carbon steel, they start to corrode and become a little sticky. Especially in damp weather. For that reason they should be lightly oiled (WD-40, kerosene, turbine oil..) during storage and just wiped dry with a dry cloth before flight.
Today they also sell nickel plated lines, perhaps they last longer..?
But on the other hand, oily surface attracts dust which makes wear faster. But if you can live with that and replace them a little more often than stainless lines, they are very nice.
Brett, if you want to test, I can send you a set. I have a big pile of them.

Lauri

   Do they have legal sizes (.018 or .458 mm)?

     Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Mic says 0,415. But I think F2D lines are thicker.
I thought that your rules no longer require .018"..? L

[Brett Buck]

Mic says 0,415. But I think F2D lines are thicker.
I thought that your rules no longer require .018"..? L

   Minimum line sizes are still required, but the break point between sizes is based on weight, not engine size. My airplane is just under the break point from .015 to .018, but depending on the scale, it goes over sometimes. I would use .018 in any case due to the improved performance.

     Brett

[Lauri Malila]

Aha, I understand.
Haven't done any measurements but I think (or guess) that these stretch more or less the same as stainless .018's.
L

[Howard Rush]

Here are some actual data.  I'd like to measure some Yatsenko and some single-strand line to see how they compare.

[Brett Buck]

Here are some actual data.  I'd like to measure some Yatsenko and some single-strand line to see how they compare.

   That's why I wanted the legal sizes, because it certainly suggests that legal size Yatsenko lines would be pretty good.

    Brett

[RknRusty]

I had a set of bronze colored .018" lines that worked well for a few days flying. And then one day they became so twisted and tangled I spent a half hour straightening out and cleaning them. Then on the next flight, the same thing happened when I was walking them out. I'm wondering if they might be this FBW brand. I keep them clean and stored with the handle in a ziplock bag.

It was a mystery to me up till now. They were part of some lines and handles I inherited via Will Davis from Allen Brickhaus, maybe he used FBW wires. I've never seen bronze colored wires before either. Impossible to see in the grass.
Rusty

[Lauri Malila]

Unless you get some benefit from bigger line diameter, your rules are a little stupid.
But it may be, in free flight we use thicker towline in wind. Not because of strenght but it calms down the model.

[john e. holliday]

Do you walk the lines out after hooking to plane or handle before hooking up other end.  Even on MDS cable I walk them out after hooking up to plane.   Then I hook up the handle.   Always leave up line clip on plane.  Even brand new set I have just made I will walk them before hooking up the handle.   I hook my lines to the plane first even when making new set.

By the way when I rollup lines I unhook from plane and anchor the lines.   Then I go to handle end and reel them up with the winder I have after disconnecting them from handle.  Yes it's a lot of walking, but I need the exercise.

[RknRusty]

Do you walk the lines out after hooking to plane or handle before hooking up other end.  Even on MDS cable I walk them out after hooking up to plane.   Then I hook up the handle.   Always leave up line clip on plane.  Even brand new set I have just made I will walk them before hooking up the handle.   I hook my lines to the plane first even when making new set.

By the way when I rollup lines I unhook from plane and anchor the lines.   Then I go to handle end and reel them up with the winder I have after disconnecting them from handle.  Yes it's a lot of walking, but I need the exercise.

My lines are stored attached to the handle. I pace off the length, lay the handle on the ground and unroll the lines back to the plane. Then I walk back to the handle, separate them while walking to the plane, and then attach to the clips on the plane.

I use acetone to clean the lines because I noticed when I clean the wings with 98% alcohol, it leaves water beads. I don't want any water on the lines when I bag them. It's humid here.
Rusty

[Lauri Malila]

Rick,

Is it possible that you are using those rotating line connectors..? Don't. L

[Brett Buck]

Rick,

Is it possible that you are using those rotating line connectors..? Don't. L

   We would call them "snap swivels" and yes, don't use those. If nothing else, they are illegal for competition.

     Brett

[Tim Wescott]

My lines are stored attached to the handle. I pace off the length, lay the handle on the ground and unroll the lines back to the plane. Then I walk back to the handle, separate them while walking to the plane, and then attach to the clips on the plane.

Some Adaminson or another (I think it was Dennis) told me that about every 10th time you string up the plane you want to walk out the lines with the ends unclipped, to relieve twists in the individual lines.  If I tried "every 10th time" it would turn into "never, with occasional frustration", so I just made it part of my routine to clip onto the plane, lay out the lines, then walk out the lines, then finally clip onto the handle.

I use acetone to clean the lines because I noticed when I clean the wings with 98% alcohol, it leaves water beads. I don't want any water on the lines when I bag them. It's humid here.
Rusty

Acetone may not be much better.  Alcohol probably grabs more water out of the air than acetone does, but acetone is still hydrophilic, so it'll still grab water.  And acetone still dries fast, so it'll still cool the lines and encourage condensation, even if it does not, itself, grab much water.

Some slower-evaporating solvent, like degreaser or lighter fluid, may work better overall.

[Brett Buck]

Some Adaminson or another (I think it was Dennis) told me that about every 10th time you string up the plane you want to walk out the lines with the ends unclipped, to relieve twists in the individual lines.  If I tried "every 10th time" it would turn into "never, with occasional frustration", so I just made it part of my routine to clip onto the plane, lay out the lines, then walk out the lines, then finally clip onto the handle.

Acetone may not be much better.  Alcohol probably grabs more water out of the air than acetone does, but acetone is still hydrophilic, so it'll still grab water.  And acetone still dries fast, so it'll still cool the lines and encourage condensation, even if it does not, itself, grab much water.

Some slower-evaporating solvent, like degreaser or lighter fluid, may work better overall.

   Acetone mostly attracts water by evaporating quickly and cooling the lines briefly. It's usually a non-problem. I prefer lacquer thinner, or in a pinch, SIG dope thinner.

     Brett

[Fredvon4]

May just be the tight wad frugal nature in me, but I would NOT pitch away $30+/- Fly by Wire e-bay line just because they twist up or unravel as I am making lines ( and I do use this product)

Then again I am not a Bret Buck/ Howard Rush/ Igor Berger competing at the top of the list. And all of these cohorts/equals/betters should use the VERY BEST lines they can find. No matter the cost

For the rest of us casual, sport fliers; the Fly By wire lines are adaquat as long as we understand the too loose or too tight twist AFTER we spent the $$...

I have (like many reading this) 1000 feet of .15 and .18 spools and after cutting the first 60 foot set learned that I must lay out 70+ feet, pre stretch, cut back a bit, terminate one set of ends, stretch again to slightly OVER pull test weight, and terminate other ends

I have several sets of Fly by Wire 52' and 60+/- foot sets that should last me a long time for sport flying

What I am saying is the OP did not state the INTENDED need or use..... stunt competition, longevity, combat, sport; each have unique needs IMO

[Rick Bollinger]

I do fly stunt and just for fun. I moved up from beginner this year but have been flying for awhile. I do not use swivels of any kind. I own many sets of lines including Sig, Brodak and Sullivan. I like to have dedicated linesets for each plane. So for this reason I started making my own sets. It is just another aspect of this hobby that I enjoy. I do not like to talk bad about anyone's product I was just wondering if anyone else was experiencing the same issues I was having. I have not experienced these issues with my other lines including the wire I got from MBS. I HAVE NOT had any failures from the FBW sets I have made. I just do not like the way they roll out, twist, grab or feel off of the spool I have.

[Rick Bollinger]

My lines are on standard spools. I leave my line connectors on the plane and the handle. I think leaving the handle on the line sets during storage can stress the ends if moving around. My handles and line sets are color coded and numbered for each plane. Red =down line, green = up line with the number corresponds to the plane. I hook up the plane from the spool the handle last. Same routine each time. wrap up in the opposite direction. I clean with alcohol prep pads I leave in both flite and line box.

[john e. holliday]

I was told many years ago that lines should not used any thing other than a clean rag to wipe them down.   So usually after a session, I take a clean rag or paper towel and wipe the lines down until no dirt/crud shows.