New C/L flyer to maiden new build!

[Target]

I have had the air frame glued up for a couple years maybe, but I finally finished my Sig Banshee.
I mainly have decided to fly a little U/C since I miss one of my OFB's, Don Repp, something fierce, and he's left RC sailplanes behind and went back to control line for a while (says he's not giving up on the sailplanes, just taking a little break!).

So, why not build a U/C and hang with one of my buddies? Thats what I did. I'm a relative Newbie, but had a couple 1/2A's about 20 years ago when my step kids were young... So I guess I'm not a U/C virgin, but no full size stunter experience, so am I a "retread"??

Anyway, here is a couple pics of the plane. It came out OK, and I learned a lot (mostly I learned I have much to learn!), and yes, there are a few mistakes here and there. But the wing is true to the stab, and I have high hopes that it will be a good flyer.

Things that are not stock-
Adjustable lead outs (made my own fence)
Bell crank reversed (front line is up line)
Added a weight box in the tip (put the opening on top, Ooops!)
Adjustable bolt on tank
Shortened the nose 1.5"
Added diagonal braces between the spars and ribs
Full length wire hinge pins
Carbon plates at the horn locations

I hope to maiden this Friday with a couple of buddies, Don Repp being one. He's the one that set me up with the OS 40FP with a different venturi.
Wish me luck!

Next up, an Oriental ARF that will be "shocked" with E-power, and then I have a RSM Thunderbird 2 kit coming that will also be built for E power (much to my buddies disapproval!).
Way later, I have some Stiletto 660 plans that I want to scratch out another E power bird, if all the prior ones are as great as I think they will be....

Here are a couple of pics of the Banshee-

[Shug Emery]

Good on ya' there. Hope you get it airborne and circling soon.
Shug

[Target]

Thanks, Shug.
I'm a bit fired up to get her in the air!
Playing hooky Friday to do the deed, I hope.
Will report. ;-)
Regards,
Chris

[Bill Johnson]

Nice job, Chris. I guess I'm a "retread" also. Hope your first flight goes well.

[Allan Perret]

Nice job.  Like the c/f tank mount, what thickness did you use.  Not crazy about the bend in the pushrod, would have kept it straight and relieved the flap instead.  I have a Banshee 80% built.  All the components are done and the fuse has been prefinished up to color coat.  Ready for final assembly and then the finish.  The Banshee is a Nostalgia build for me, its the 1st design I built when I got back into Stunt about 15 years ago.  It flew good, I had both a Fox35 and a OS25FP on it.  The new will start off with a DS40,  but I also have removable mounts set up for Brodak 25, Brodak 40, and Enya 30ss.  I like playing with different engines.  Good luck with maiden flights.

[Bill Morell]

Maybe it's just me but your choice of push rod looks weak. Even with the guide on the fuselage I would be concerned with flexing. Other than that it looks very nice!

[Target]

Thanks for the comments, gents.
For Allen, the CF tank mount is a piece that I had layed up long ago for some misc RC use, I think it was about 4 layers of plain weave 3k fabric (5.9oz/sq yd). Seems plenty good. On the push rods, yes, I could have left it straight and trimmed the flap, and I hope it won't be a problem.
For Bill, that's what came with the kit on the P/R material, which, being a newbie, I would think would be adequate.
I'll give some hand abuse to the elevator end and hold the flap and see what happens.
That is an easy fix if needed!

Regards,
Chris

[Mike Griffin]

The model looks great Chris.  Let us know how she performs.

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

If the pushrod does seem flimsy, with hand testing or in the air, then you should consider replacing it with a straight carbon-fiber pushrods.  I think CF pushrods are one of the biggest, easiest improvements you can make in an older-design plane.

There's a bazzilion different ways to do the deed.  I make mine from used arrow shafts with machined inserts, but this is probably the easiest: http://www.centralhobbies.com/control_linkage/pushrod.html.

[Bill Little]

Great job on the build, Chris!  Good Luck with those first flights.

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Target]

Thanks for the kudos, gents.
I have a slue of CF push rods here from the 3-4 meter sailplanes I fly, as well as ball linkages for the v-tails for the same.
If it seems flimsy, that is an easy upgrade for me. I'll likely do that anyway after the maiden, "just because" or before if the flex test gets a fail mark.
Just during handling, it seems adequate to me. But I would hate to find out I'm wrong by having the first loop turn in to a "figure 9"! That IS what you guys call that, right? 

I'll report back on Friday. I'll try to post some pics also.

Have a great week all.

[Garf]

I will tell you right now from experience that the pushrod and landing gear wire are too weak. Also you need a fuel tank designed for a profile model. You don't want the feed tube pointing at the cylinder head. You also need to make sure that the rear of the feed tube is soldered securely at the rear of the tank. If not, the front solder joint will fail. This is also from experience.

[john e. holliday]

The Banshee looks great .  I have had a Banshee that was built box stock with the old Fox .35 Stunt on it.  Flew great for me ,  but what did I know as it helped me with the pattern a lot.

[Leester]

The Banshee looks great !! I use the ATF ( all tubes forward) tanks on my profiles with no problem at all. Saw Windy using them on his profile Cardinals. Good Luck, but I would change the push rod 

[Brett Buck]

Thanks for the kudos, gents.
I have a slue of CF push rods here from the 3-4 meter sailplanes I fly, as well as ball linkages for the v-tails for the same.
If it seems flimsy, that is an easy upgrade for me. I'll likely do that anyway after the maiden, "just because" or before if the flex test gets a fail mark.
Just during handling, it seems adequate to me. But I would hate to find out I'm wrong by having the first loop turn in to a "figure 9"! That IS what you guys call that, right? 

I'll report back on Friday. I'll try to post some pics also.

Have a great week all.

  It should be OK with the fairlead on it.  I would note, however, that your previous experience may lead you a bit astray on durability issues. Stunt planes, even relatively small ones like this, are disproportionately hard on control hardware.

    Brett

[Target]

Hi, Brett-

I'll take that advise as sage and be thorough on pre-flights with this plane.
Future planes I hope to be electric, and I would assume that will cancel some of the vibration wear. I somewhat understand the flight forces, "snapflap" used to make sailplanes turn hard is very similar, but C/L adds a vicious motor pulling the wing through a stall that a sailplane won't tolerate.

As for the tank, I am following the advice of a veteran C/L flying buddy, I'll report if I have problems, but I expect none since this guy is as thorough as they come and used to compete in combat, I believe.

All advice welcome, keep them coming.

Regards,
Chris

[Randy Ryan]

Man that's probably the best looking Banshee I've ever seen!!!!!!

[Target]

Thanks Randy.
I hope it looks the same after flying.
So, prop size suggestions? I know my buddy will hook me up with something appropriate, what is it likely to be?
Engine is an OS 40 FP with a different venturi.

Thanks!

[Tim Wescott]

TT 11x4.5 if you can find it, APC 11x4 or 11.5x4 otherwise.

[Target]

Thanks, Tim!

[Scott Richlen]

Great looking Banshee.

Do you have a washer soldered to the inside side of the pushrod where it goes through the flap horn?

After many flights, my nylon flap horn got soft (?) and somehow twisted under control force allowing the pushrod to ram through the hole.

Instant Banshee re-kit.

Scott

[Randy Ryan]

TT 11x4.5 if you can find it, APC 11x4 or 11.5x4 otherwise.

Yes, you'll probably find you want to run a wet 2cycle, the FP is not fond of a 4-2-4 though it will do it now and then but not consistantly. RPMs up pitch down to keep the airspeed manageable. The FP will be more than enough power so you should be fine there. I have run them on 12-4 APCs and they do quite well and it seems to tame them down a bit. I'll probably get no-no!! comments for that but it works for me so I do it.

[Target]

I called my flying buddy last night to see what he was going to recommend and he also said a 11-4/11-4.5.
Sounds like we will be starting with an 11-4.
I'm reasonably certain that we will have almost no running problems since I got the engine from him, and he bought it, modified it, and ran and tuned it before handing it to me a couple years ago.

Friday is the day!

R,
Chris

[Randy Ryan]

I called my flying buddy last night to see what he was going to recommend and he also said a 11-4/11-4.5.
Sounds like we will be starting with an 11-4.
I'm reasonably certain that we will have almost no running problems since I got the engine from him, and he bought it, modified it, and ran and tuned it before handing it to me a couple years ago.

Friday is the day!

R,
Chris

Good starting place and I wasn't suggesting otherwise, just that in myown playing around I've done that. The FPs are great engines, but I've modified some myself and seen and used some modified by others and I've never seen one fully tamed, they tend to run away at any unprediceted moment even after several flawless runs. The larger propm in my experience, helps. In fact I an running a 12-4 three bladed prop on one and it's finally "under control" though I'm thinking of trimming it to 11 3/4 because it loads just a smidge too much.

Anyway, not making suggestions, just myown ramblings, looking forward to a flight report soon, hope it all goes well for you, HAVE A BLAST!!!!!

[Target]

I'll let you know what we end up using.

Shug-
Man, I just watched your "Introduction to Control Line Flying" Video on You Tube.....

EXCELLENT video, one of the guys I work with wanted to see a video and I stumbled upon it.
Great info for the non flying folks, well done, sir!


Regards all,
Chris

[Target]

Guess what?

Tomorrow is MAIDEN DAY! For the Banshee, AND me (out of retirement at least!).

I'm PUMPED!
Even if there are issues with the Banshee (which I REALLY doubt), Don said he's bringing one of his beater 80mph combat wings for me to fly first. Claims its already seen a lifetime of abuse, and if try to fly to China with it, he won't shed a tear.

It has been windy (local Santa Ana winds here in SoCal) the last two days and tomorrow is forecast for 2mph wind all morning. Yay!
Awesome!

Pics to follow.
Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

Regards,
Chris

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Very nice Banshee Chris!

Dennis

[Target]

Thanks Dennis!

OK, here is the report-

I had a great day, wx was perfect for what we were doing.
I made it to the flying site and was there before my flying buddy, and watched a couple of the other guys buzz around the circle.

My buddy Don showed up and we got right to the business of getting my plane rigged with fuel line, filter, prop, etc. A couple of the guys had some commentary about this or that.
The prop that when on there was a "Magnum" 11 x 4.5 nylon job. Don adjusted the tank height a bit to the "looks about right" setting. Tank was fueled, needle screwed in and out to wherever Don decided to set it. Prime. First flip. Running! After sitting for 2-1/2 years.....
Checked nose up and inverted, broke into 2 cycle on nose up, ran OK inverted, tweaked the needle a bit, then killed it by nosing it down stationary for a few seconds. All good.
Don hooked up the lines, and we set the neutral together. All set. I told him to "Go for it."

So off it went on its maiden. Seemed to fly almost perfect, needed a bit of tip weight removed (1oz start, 3/4oz second flight). Plane was almost perfectly level, but on landing we noticed an almost imperceptible warp in the main wing (I mean, almost not there!!) that likely was causing slight roll out upright, and slight roll in inverted. So, I will be fixing that tonight or tomorrow.
Don says it almost flies perfect, and he did some square maneuvers and says it even has a decent corner as-is! 


As for me? Did I fly it? NOPE! Next time I will though.
But I DID fly Don's 80mph beater combat wing (not sure what it is, but an Enya 35 on it), and I also did my first launch of same for him for the tuneup flight. So, first flight, no problem, they were all stoked. I did a couple of loops and a couple poor excuses for a wing-over. All good, and as graceful a landing as one can do with a combat wing on grass.
The second flight, I was a bit more comfortable, and after a loop or two, I decided to try an outside loop.....But I didn't QUITE MAKE IT around to inverted! D'oh!
The boom broke back by the stab, and the prop obviously was gone, but that seems to be about the extent of the damage.
And, I'm almost certain I saw a gopher pop his head up and give me the finger.
So, Don says to me, "And THAT is why I had you fly the combat wing over the grass before you flew the Banshee".... What a buddy, eh?

A little embarrassing, but I have to say that its fun to fly something that pulls on you, and I can't wait to do it again, hopefully soon. Over lunch afterwards we discussed the flight plan for next outing using lazy eights to work into the outside and inverted stuff.

Don called just a while ago and reported that the boom is epoxied back together, and ready for the next crash test, and to thank me for buying him lunch (Really? after I crashed your plane?!).

I managed to snap a couple pics, here they are. All in all, a successful outing and I'm looking forward to the next one, I hope its soon.

[Target]

Third outing for me today and the Banshee, and the second time I flew it. Bumpy air today. But still thrilling.
We tried a master air screw scimitar 11x4 that I had bought. Not enough pitch. Even with the engine wound up more, the plane looked to have a nearly six second lap time.
Swapped out a wood series master air screw 10x5, and that worked fantastic!
I did my first couple of loops and my first nicely greased landing! Can't wait for the next day out.
Big smile.
R,
Chris

[Brett Buck]

Third outing for me today and the Banshee, and the second time I flew it. Bumpy air today. But still thrilling.
We tried a master air screw scimitar 11x4 that I had bought. Not enough pitch. Even with the engine wound up more, the plane looked to have a nearly six second lap time.
Swapped out a wood series master air screw 10x5, and that worked fantastic!
I did my first couple of loops and my first nicely greased landing! Can't wait for the next day out.

  Outstanding! Airplane looks good and it flies well, welcome back!

   Brett

[Steve Helmick]

Yeah, Master Airscrew plastic props are pretty well known to be significantly under-pitched, and the wooden ones a bit over-pitched. You might try an 11- 5 or 11-6 Scimitar Master Airscrew, or stick with APC. I'm a fan of APC, Thunder Tiger and Graupner props, but both the latter are tough to get right now. If you want good wood props, RSM or XOAR (who make the RSM props to RSM's design) are awesome. TF Power Points aren't all that terrible...try the 11-5. I ran the 11-4 and MA Scimitar back to back and they were very similar...had to rev very high to get close on the airspeed. Still not likely to be as good as an APC or Thunder Tiger, however.  Steve

[Daniel_Munro]

Sounds like your banshee is going great.

Good choice by the way, I built a Banshee last year with very similar mods and with an OS 40fp. Later I popped an LA46 on it. She flew very well and was mt first big stunter.

I learnt the FAI pattern with mine before progressing to a Brodak Legacy 40.

I have the Banshee to a friend who was learning, it's now in bits unfortunately.

Hope yours treats you well.

Dan.

[Target]

I should say that my OS.40 FP isn't stock. As far as I know, my buddy lowered compression a tad, put on a small venturi, and changed the timing with a port mod.
That engine starts easy every day so far, and does have the 4-2-4 break that everyone looks for.
Never a hiccup, no flame outs while flying, and the uniflow tank arrangement is super reliable.
This plane is making me re think using electric on my future builds.
Thanks for the kind words gents. I'm having a blast and will be trying to learn the pattern.
Happy fathers day all.

[Tim Wescott]

... and does have the 4-2-4 break that everyone looks for ...

Not everyone, by a long shot.  There are quite a few good stunt engines these days that launch on a wet 2 and never break down to a 4, yet still put in excellent flights.

BTW: My flying buddy, who I met at a contest in the spring of 2012, claims RC sailplanes as his first competitive hobby.  Just last weekend, after just three years back in CL since the 1960's, he took 4th in Advanced out of a field of six with a score of 455.5.  This was on his backup plane, to boot.

[Target]

I know, there are more ways to skin a cat than one....
I just wanted to point out that it seems many people have negative things to say about the .40fp for stunt, and my friend seems to have made it quite usable in the classic 4-2-4 application, despite what others have experienced.
I'm still flying sailplanes, headed to a great 2 day contest (probably the best real thermal contest in California, in my opinion) next weekend.
I'll have fun, but might be thinking about flying with wires attached to a wing. I could be distracted....
R,
Chris

[Steve Helmick]

If you see Tom Brightbill at that glider contest, he's the guy Tim was writing about. You two can talk about CL between thermals!  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

Tom's deep knowledge of thermals helps my CL flying.  Really -- I may not know what to do when a glider gets into a thermal, but now I at least have a notion of what the air is going to do on a gusty day, since those "gusts" are usually thermals going by.

The first time I got to know the thermal side of Tom was when one of our RC club members put up an old timer RC ship.  Tex was just tooling around in the sky, without regard for the vertical motion of the air.  Tom was standing next to me and nearly dying from frustration "ooh!  you're in a thermal!  Turn, turn!  Awwww!" (repeat for three minutes).  About a year later I talked Tex into handing the transmitter to Tom with the comment "he may have trouble landing" -- he did, too: Tex had to take the transmitter away from Tom so that he could descend, land, and go home.

[Target]

Thought I'd give the thread an update-
Banshee still is flying great.
OS.40FP still working perfectly, and the 10x5 MA wood prop, I think works perfectly.

If I recall correctly, I have changed the flap to elevator pushrod, to eliminate the slight bend that was in it. The guide I have on there made from a nylon control horn seems like it gives it great support.
Don says that my Banshee flies a bit better than his, and the other day he had me fly his. They both fly great, I can't really say which I like better or what the difference is, but I like his handle better than mine, its LIGHTER!

I can say that I fly the E-powered Oriental more than the Banshee, and I think that after I didn't fly the Banshee for several sessions, it does fly better, and is much more nimble than the Oriental is. I think that is due to the "O" being a bit CG forward compared with the Banshee. I'll have to make an effort to tune the Oriental a bit further.
Don says part of what I might be feeling is the fact that the Banshee is about 10oz lighter (38oz?) than the "O" is.

Regardless, the Banshee is awesome, and I am really happy that I built it, and am hanging out with some cool flying buddies when I get the chance.

Thanks to all that contributed to the thread.

Kind Regards,
Chris

[john e. holliday]

That sounds great about the Banshee.  I'm a little surprised more people haven't tried the MA wood props.

[Mike Lauerman]

I had a Banshee I built in the '80s. O.S. Max .35, T.F. 10-6 prop, just a great sport plane! Always liked the lines, was surprised at the scarcity of them.
Lots of Goldberg Shoestrings, some Tutors and Twisters.
Nice to see such a great example here.

[Target]

Thanks Mike.
My flying buddy was the one that said, "Get a Banshee kit". He knew I had a bit of balsa experience, seemingly uncommon these days in the arf rc era.
Happy I took his advice.